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KapteinSabeltann

Buff the ZAO

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Yeah just like that out of nowhere; I'm calling for a buff of a ship I don't have. Well actually I'm suggesting it gets un-nerfed. Long time ago, when invisifiring was a thing, the ZAO was deemed OP and got it's health-pool nerfed by about 10k. Since then invisi-firing was removed and the ZAO is by far superseeded by other ships as firestarter. CC's like Flamu disagreed about the nerf because he felt that it didn't really deal with the issue: invisifiring. Reducing the health of an invisible target doesn't really do much it just further incentivices invisifiring, which is unfortunate cause ZAO AP is good and ZAO torps are very good...

 

If you compare it with the Hindenburg, it's less armoured, it's got less DPM, it has more HE alpha but less HE pen, it's AA don't even compare yet the health nerf is still in place. Why compare it to the hindy? Cause they are both long range high velocity heavy cruisers. And the Hindenburg definately doesn't need a nerf. There is no reason left why the ZAO should sit at 10k health penalty compared to other heavy cruisers. The only reason it was nerfed was it's ability to invisifire which is LONG gone so why does it still have this artificially low health-pool. It should be a clear and simple thing to just give it back it's health. It's pretty straight forward in terms of coding and I seriously doubt it would lead to ZAO op plz nerf issues.

 

The other IJN heavy cruisers were recently buffed with ZAO-like gun characteristics, at least now the IBUKI CAN long range kite now - kinda. So why not finish buffing the line with the ZAO.

 

I know there are other lines that suffer more. German BB's, partially German Cruisers, Partially German DDs, is there a German CV in game? (*cough*), IJN gunboats prior to the akizuki aren't gunboats at all. WG confirmed they knew about this and we needen't worry cause they are "on it". That was a few  years ago. Not only is the power creep real but some lines like early IJN gunboat makes no sense.

 

However just because other lines suffer is no argument to keep a unneccesary nerf of the ZAO in game. Just reset it's health pool. There is no reason why it should have T8 health. None! Just bring it up to par with it's peers.

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Zao doesn't just have to long range spam, its actually pretty versatile - It CAN long range spam HE if it wants (and is a decent fire starter/ HE alpha). If can also use and abuse its stealth to be suprise DD support, and can invisi-torp with the 12km torps.

 

The zao also has a fairly trollish armour layout and can eat volleys that should have deleted it, but instead gives overpens

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32 minutes ago, KapteinSabeltann said:

If you compare it with the Hindenburg, it's less armoured, it's got less DPM, it has more HE alpha but less HE pen,

 

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20191102/eu_2month/average_ship.html

Zao is superior to Hindenburg in basicly everything: higher WR, more damage, more kills, better hitrate and more survivability.

 

So i guess buff hindenburg, not Zao? :cap_hmm: Ofc WG effed Hindenburg, because first nerf, then buff and buff again, which tells us, initial nerf was totaly uncalled for. Even more so, when they buffed Zao and HIV at the same moment.

And i think HIV could deserve a nerf.

 

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yes to the mlg heroes that avoid the point. The reason the ZAO was nerfed is gone. That simple. And it doesn't have the firepower to warrant it. Examplifying with the hindeburg may or may not be a good thing but the basics are the same. It was nerfed for a reason, that reason is gone, it's not OP in any way and there is simply no reson for it to sit at a T8 healthpool. None of you have provided arguments saying it should. And AFAIK long range HE-spam is what we DON'T want to incentivice?

 

As far as Trolly armour goes. Thats your argument? That sometimes the ZAO can bounce shots?

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Zao is amazing!

Troll armour (Not bouncing shots but taking good citadel shots and producing overpens 

Destroyer dispersion

Great stealth

Stealth torping

It's only limitation is the range so I always carry a spotting plane.

 

HIV is better at long range but has nothing on the Zao at short range.

 

 

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15 minutes ago, KapteinSabeltann said:

yes to the mlg heroes that avoid the point. The reason the ZAO was nerfed is gone. That simple. And it doesn't have the firepower to warrant it. Examplifying with the hindeburg may or may not be a good thing but the basics are the same. It was nerfed for a reason, that reason is gone, it's not OP in any way and there is simply no reson for it to sit at a T8 healthpool. None of you have provided arguments saying it should. And AFAIK long range HE-spam is what we DON'T want to incentivice? 

 

Zao got buffed in return? Can we nerf torps in return to how they were before? Then i would agree with you.

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The Zao actually is no longer competitive. The KotS tournament showed that most clans work with the Henri nowadays. That even makes sense. The Henri has much higher dpm, so it even outguns Zao when you consider the higher hit ratio of the legendary mod. The issue that holds back Zao is not its low hit points. It is its dpm.

 

On top of that Zao would need some quality of life improvements like better AA for randoms and more offensive arcs for torpedos and guns. The big problem of the Zao is that it cannot disengage once permaspotted, because of its vulnerable citadel and it cannot go into the brawl, cause most cruisers got better bow-in firepower and torp arcs, while the Zao torps require so much broadside, you basically get citadelled to death before even firing them.

So the Zao needs room to make a 180° turn and run from whatever outguns her. The nerf on Concealment Expert has cost precious 400m of concealment, which makes it even more paranoid to guess what's coming your way and plan your escape. Ships like Henri or Hindi, even Yoshino don't have that shortcoming. They kite their way into torp range guns blazing and let loose their torps and survive.

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How about better reload for zao and give hindenburg 32mm of deck or side plating armor? But anyway i thing there are ships that are truly in need of a buff: seattle being one, german destroyer line,khabarovsk,maybe yueyang and chung mu? 

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17 minutes ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

The Zao actually is no longer competitive. The KotS tournament showed that most clans work with the Henri nowadays. That even makes sense. The Henri has much higher dpm, so it even outguns Zao when you consider the higher hit ratio of the legendary mod. The issue that holds back Zao is not its low hit points. It is its dpm.

 

On top of that Zao would need some quality of life improvements like better AA for randoms and more offensive arcs for torpedos and guns. The big problem of the Zao is that it cannot disengage once permaspotted, because of its vulnerable citadel and it cannot go into the brawl, cause most cruisers got better bow-in firepower and torp arcs, while the Zao torps require so much broadside, you basically get citadelled to death before even firing them.

So the Zao needs room to make a 180° turn and run from whatever outguns her. The nerf on Concealment Expert has cost precious 400m of concealment, which makes it even more paranoid to guess what's coming your way and plan your escape. Ships like Henri or Hindi, even Yoshino don't have that shortcoming. They kite their way into torp range guns blazing and let loose their torps and survive.

I'm not saying that the healthpool is all she needs, all I am arguing is that giving her T10 Cruiser healthpool should be a no-brainer that requires little to almost no effort on WG's side. If it is enough is another matter that you are highlighting here. All I'm saying is her healtpool makes no sense and it would not hurt her to get back her old health pool.

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1 minute ago, Animalul2012 said:

How about better reload for zao and give hindenburg 32mm of deck or side plating armor? But anyway i thing there are ships that are truly in need of a buff: seattle being one, german destroyer line,khabarovsk,maybe yueyang and chung mu? 

The Khaba triple nerf was... I actually prefer playing the Tashkent now. No turning, no range, and a torp nerf? If you got torped by a khaba you deserved it... The ruddershift is a joke. I feel she was overnerfed in THAT meta and in the current meta even more so.

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i feel like a health boost would not be too bad.

But comparing it to a hindy? nah its not really the same :P.

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Solo stats:

zao.thumb.PNG.4fa6c1e36f2aa35a6f9aeadb363fcd1f.PNG

 

The Zao is amazing and doesn't need anything. You can unleash HE from hell on DDs from 10 km, you can unleash devastating AP on unsuspecting cruisers, you have amazing torps and you have the stealth to get away with it all. The legendary module makes the Zao even stronger.

Most people are too potato to utilize stealth so they farm BBs from max range and make the Zao look terrible.

 

If you feel the Zao is too weak when compared to Henri or Smolensk you should rather ask for nerfs to these perpetrators.

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Zao still feels fine honestly. Low DPM is offset by having good alpha, shell velocity, number of shells and accuracy (which gets really nice with the legendary). Add to this a relatively stealthy platform that can dump a heavy broadside of torps and you have a really good kiter and if needed DD support thanks to its meaty broadside.

 

As for it not beeing competetive, well that is purely because of the rise of Kremlins and Stalingrads. Versus a HIV in the midrange fight the Zaos more reliable guns will eat a HIV more often than not with equal player skill. For random battles I would still say it is one of the more consistent ships you can play and can't really do wrong with bringing it.

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I used to really like the zao, but shes just not competitive anymore, shes been replaced by smolensk/henry because she just has too low dpm for usage in the role of kiting cruiser nowadays. Thats powercreep for you

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To be fair, this was bound to be needed eventually. Weegee has managed to essentially consign most standard 203 mm cruisers to obsolescence through powercreep. These days, the competitive ships are either the pseudo battleships like the Stalingrad or the DPM spewers like the Smolensk.

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6 hours ago, Xevious_Red said:

Zao doesn't just have to long range spam, its actually pretty versatile - It CAN long range spam HE if it wants (and is a decent fire starter/ HE alpha).

Compared to the Smolensk or the Henri, the Zao is just poor at both. The Zao is a decent firestarter, but the Smolenk will burn just about any battleship that can't run from her sight to crisp. The Zao has good HE alpha, but she rarely runs up against the battleships that will allow that alpha to do its work. She can use that alpha against cruisers, but she'll struggle to hit cruisers at range compared to the Stalingrad and she'll be outtraded in HE brawls by just about every last one of her tiermates.

6 hours ago, Xevious_Red said:

If can also use and abuse its stealth to be suprise DD support, and can invisi-torp with the 12km torps.

The Zao can abuse her stealth for that, but so can the Smolensk. So can the Minotaur for that matter, and both arguably do it better than she can. She can stealth torp, but Japanese torpedoes are some of the worst in the game and barely usable even whilst on a significantly more maneuverable and better concealed hull of a destroyer. The Minotaur can also stealth torp, and the times it comes into play are few especially considering how much side the Zao needs to flash to get her torps off.

6 hours ago, Xevious_Red said:

The zao also has a fairly trollish armour layout and can eat volleys that should have deleted it, but instead gives overpens

Many cruisers share that characteristic. The Henri has her spaced armor that sometimes just eats shells. The Smolensk is so thin that shells just cut through her without detonating. The Hindenburg is the crowning king of troll armor, especially for close ranged rushes. The Zao just falls behind on many regards. She's decent and I won't ever call her weak, but as a tier X she needs to be measured up against the likes of the Smolensk and she just does not come out looking good in that comparison.

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Hello,

          Zao is fine where she is sitting and has been for a long time, before her nerf and changes to prevent stealth fire she was very strong but now I'd say she sits pretty well and in fact better than some other TX cruisers. I don't back any change to buff her, if anything I'd agree to buffing heavy cruisers in general. Their larger gun diameter, caliber and reload don't really provide any advantages that outweigh the DPM of ships like Worcester, Smolensk and perhaps even Minotaur in the hands of good players.

 

7 hours ago, dasCKD said:

To be fair, this was bound to be needed eventually. Weegee has managed to essentially consign most standard 203 mm cruisers to obsolescence through powercreep. These days, the competitive ships are either the pseudo battleships like the Stalingrad or the DPM spewers like the Smolensk.

^ Pretty much this and it's not hard to see why some teams will pick Stalingrads, Kremlin and Smolensk over the old kings like Montana, Des Moines and Moskva.

 

Regards,

               Minia

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5 hours ago, CptMinia said:

Hello,

          Zao is fine where she is sitting and has been for a long time, before her nerf and changes to prevent stealth fire she was very strong but now I'd say she sits pretty well and in fact better than some other TX cruisers. I don't back any change to buff her, if anything I'd agree to buffing heavy cruisers in general. Their larger gun diameter, caliber and reload don't really provide any advantages that outweigh the DPM of ships like Worcester, Smolensk and perhaps even Minotaur in the hands of good players.

 

^ Pretty much this and it's not hard to see why some teams will pick Stalingrads, Kremlin and Smolensk over the old kings like Montana, Des Moines and Moskva.

 

Regards,

               Minia

Honestly this is probably the way to go, the 203mm cruisers need buffs in general, as they are simply outperformed by their lower/higher caliber counterparts.

 

 they just get outperformed by either light cruisers like smolensk or supercruisers like stalingrad for any given job, they are occupying a "jack of all trades" slot in a meta where you want specialized ships.

 

des moines is probably the only 203mm cruiser that is still competitive.

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If you think the zao needs a buff you’re not playing her very well, or you don’t have her yet and you’re making a flawed hypothetical statement 

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7 hours ago, Shagulon said:

If you think the zao needs a buff you’re not playing her very well, or you don’t have her yet and you’re making a flawed hypothetical statement 

Its been completely replaced in the competitive scene

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7 minutes ago, thiextar said:

Its been completely replaced in the competitive scene

Pretty much this - we only run one as our Zao main doesn't have a Henri IV yet.

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