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MonauralSpider

Italian cruiser Trento wye?

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Wye does that poor Italian cruiser got so high detectability range by sea it is the highest of all tier VI? it got nothing going fore it 

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Because of the smoke. It prevents players to rush a battleship, smoke up right before detection range, close the gap and torp. With lower detection range, they would have to remove torpedoes.

 

I don't mind the bad concealment, you are most likely kiting and firing with your guns in open sea with this ship anyway. And you have smoke + speed if you want to go dark.

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On 11/5/2019 at 3:11 PM, Nit0 said:

Because of the smoke. It prevents players to rush a battleship, smoke up right before detection range, close the gap and torp. With lower detection range, they would have to remove torpedoes.

 

I don't mind the bad concealment, you are most likely kiting and firing with your guns in open sea with this ship anyway. And you have smoke + speed if you want to go dark.

You cannot even delete a T3 BB with a broadside of your torps, unless the BB already is damaged. Something like an Amagi can take both sides and still be just under half its hp pool.

 

And it's a joke to say this is the reason, because apart from some cruisers that can torp rush in the open and not die (top tier Krasny Krim and Furutaka, Hipper/Prinz Eugen against half the BBs they can face, low tier RN cruisers...), with proper concealment build, you can cover the distance to get into the enemy's face with a Trento before the smoke runs out. Just afterwards you are dead. Perth and Huanghe with less speed, but better torps (and torp reload booster on Huanghe) and less distance to cover are far superior options for this kinda silly play. Not to mention, if you have noone spotting, they at least have hydro. Once the Italian fighter plane dies, they are basically charging blind.

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Unlike Leander, which is same tier, and doesn't have torps and smoke, and 10ish km detectability? And also, usable one. Smoke on Trento is anything but good, and Trento's detectability when firing from smoke is 9km, detection on 15!!! km?? 5km difference.

Incredible. 

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I'm grinding the RM line. Now I have reached the pinnacle of pain with the Trento.

As Sleepy_Bunny has clearly explained, the tactic put forward by Nit0 is simply suicidal: the smoke (of which you have 1 to start with and takes forever to recharge) does not last long enough to allow you to get close to the BB, top him and go back undetected. Sooner or later you'll be detected and you'll be citadeled no matter what you do with your WASD keys. if you dare to fire at the BB from within the smoke, you'll be detected at more than 9km, and be deleted soon afterwards.

Plus, your torps, if the BB skipper is so stupid to be hit by torps that he can almost outrun because they are so slow, will do no more than 8k damage. If you manage to hit with all 6 (and that would necessitate an incredibly lucky shot and/or an incredibly stupid BB skipper) it's 48k damage. You can probably sink a Wyoming, but not a NY or above. So, no, the brilliant tactic developed by Nit0 is only going to get you killed.

Did I mention that the guns are absolutely ineffective, although they are 203mm?

I rarely manage to do more than 20k damage before being deleted by the enemy.

My average is 1k damage per shell on DDs, about 800 per shell on CLs and 5-600 per shell on BBs.

That is both with SAP and AP, at any angles, and those are, once again 203mm shells.

I do more damage with my Harekaze and HE...

You are FORCED to shoot from far away (otherwise you'll be insta-killed by 7 ships shooting at you simultaneously) and while kiting you can point only 4 guns at the enemy. The shells will take anything from 8 to 12 seconds to reach their target. Again, you need someone really, really stupid at the receiving end of those shots to be able to hit with more than 10-15% of the shells you fire. They would need to sail straight and at constant speed for 8-12 seconds while being targeted by someone.

Monaural_spider, I have no answer to your question, except that RM ships are not Russian, so they can't be developed as good ships from the beginning.

Good hunting

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On 11/9/2019 at 6:35 PM, Sleepy_Bunny said:

Something like an Amagi can take both sides and still be just under half its hp pool.

Yes, but most players in a Trento won't see Amagi that often.

 

Your torps are a threat to BBs of Tiers VI and VII, but they are best used in a harrassing/defensive sense.  Same with your smoke - that's not a "sit and fire" weapon, it's for getting in close or going dark when kiting.

 

Try and stay further than 10k away from BBs, and go for deck, superstructure, bow or stern with your SAP - you can get some chunky damage numbers with that. You can't be aggressive against them - save that for DDs and Cruisers.

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2 hours ago, soffici said:

I'm grinding the RM line. Now I have reached the pinnacle of pain with the Trento.

As Sleepy_Bunny has clearly explained, the tactic put forward by Nit0 is simply suicidal: the smoke (of which you have 1 to start with and takes forever to recharge) does not last long enough to allow you to get close to the BB, top him and go back undetected. Sooner or later you'll be detected and you'll be citadeled no matter what you do with your WASD keys. if you dare to fire at the BB from within the smoke, you'll be detected at more than 9km, and be deleted soon afterwards.

Plus, your torps, if the BB skipper is so stupid to be hit by torps that he can almost outrun because they are so slow, will do no more than 8k damage. If you manage to hit with all 6 (and that would necessitate an incredibly lucky shot and/or an incredibly stupid BB skipper) it's 48k damage. You can probably sink a Wyoming, but not a NY or above. So, no, the brilliant tactic developed by Nit0 is only going to get you killed.

Did I mention that the guns are absolutely ineffective, although they are 203mm?

I rarely manage to do more than 20k damage before being deleted by the enemy.

My average is 1k damage per shell on DDs, about 800 per shell on CLs and 5-600 per shell on BBs.

That is both with SAP and AP, at any angles, and those are, once again 203mm shells.

I do more damage with my Harekaze and HE...

You are FORCED to shoot from far away (otherwise you'll be insta-killed by 7 ships shooting at you simultaneously) and while kiting you can point only 4 guns at the enemy. The shells will take anything from 8 to 12 seconds to reach their target. Again, you need someone really, really stupid at the receiving end of those shots to be able to hit with more than 10-15% of the shells you fire. They would need to sail straight and at constant speed for 8-12 seconds while being targeted by someone.

Monaural_spider, I have no answer to your question, except that RM ships are not Russian, so they can't be developed as good ships from the beginning.

Good hunting

I never said it was a valid tactic, I said it's one of the reasons for why they don't want these cruisers to have better concealment. Because this sort of yolo would be easier to achieve then.

However, it is doable to smoke rush and torp a battleship and I have done it several times at tier 6, 7 and 8 with the italian cruisers. It requires that you can surprise said battleship (lets say you come around an island and can close the remaining gap with smoke) and it's not a full hp battleship. 

 

As for your low dmg with sap and ap, practice more. Nothing wrong with the AP on these guns, they do great against broadside cruisers. With SAP I can easily do 7-8k dmg on the superstructure of a battleship, but if you aim too low and hit the torpedobelt or something u won't do any dmg. So it requires that you know where to hit on the ship. DD's melt when you hit them with SAP, it's a killer.

 

You are correct that fighting at a distance is the best option, and they do this quite well. Dodging incomming fire is not too hard in italian cruisers. And you have the luxury to disengage at will with the smoke, no other cruisers who like to kite can do that.

 

It's not my favourite nation when it comes to cruisers, the slow reload can be annoying, and SAP can be a bit unpredictable at times (sometimes you hit for 8k, othertimes you hit for 1.5k), but overall they are good. 

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On 11/9/2019 at 7:35 PM, Sleepy_Bunny said:

You cannot even delete a T3 BB with a broadside of your torps, unless the BB already is damaged. Something like an Amagi can take both sides and still be just under half its hp pool.

 

And it's a joke to say this is the reason, because apart from some cruisers that can torp rush in the open and not die (top tier Krasny Krim and Furutaka, Hipper/Prinz Eugen against half the BBs they can face, low tier RN cruisers...), with proper concealment build, you can cover the distance to get into the enemy's face with a Trento before the smoke runs out. Just afterwards you are dead. Perth and Huanghe with less speed, but better torps (and torp reload booster on Huanghe) and less distance to cover are far superior options for this kinda silly play. Not to mention, if you have noone spotting, they at least have hydro. Once the Italian fighter plane dies, they are basically charging blind.

Imagine a Lenin with 30k hp left bowtanking 2-3 ships and doing that just fine. And then he notice this smoke coming towards him in 36 knots. If that smoke knows what he is doing, he will eat at least 3-6 torps and when the smoke is out, he will have a cruiser behind him finnishing him off with SAP.  Today with the concealment Amalfi have, you won't be able to get past the Lenin before smoke is out, so he have a chance to kill you before you get past his guns. And sure, Prinz Eugen can try the same trick and many times succeed. But, if there is any enemy on the flank, that is a very risky maneuver to do. A 36 knot smoke won't face that risk, and thats why WG doesn't want to give italian cruisers better concealment or better torps.

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I don't have a problem with the Trento in general. SAP works, if you pick your targets. It has good speed & manoeuvrability to dodge a lot of incoming fire if you stay at range. It feels like another slow burner like the Japanese and french cruisers around these tiers. It struggles to dictate a game in the same way (it can't really stop a push or push solo), but it is great at controlling its own engagement and kiting away when needed.

 

The poor concealment does feel a bit unfair though, given the size of the ship, similar cruisers have better. But if you work with it, maybe use islands or better still attract fire and dodge (so taking fire away from team mates and therefore help your team win by wasting the enemies shots). It has a similar play style to the french and Japanese, but these both have better concealment, so start of the game and disengaging is easier.....but that's where the smoke comes in.

 

SAP does devastate DDs, which is still possible at range thanks to the firing arcs of the shells.

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On 12/11/2019 at 12:11 AM, Nit0 said:

I never said it was a valid tactic, I said it's one of the reasons for why they don't want these cruisers to have better concealment. Because this sort of yolo would be easier to achieve then.

However, it is doable to smoke rush and torp a battleship and I have done it several times at tier 6, 7 and 8 with the italian cruisers. It requires that you can surprise said battleship (lets say you come around an island and can close the remaining gap with smoke) and it's not a full hp battleship. 

That is a lot of IFs in one sentence. You'll need to have:

1) cooperating BB

2) low health BB

3) islands in the right positions

4) no one else spotting/shooting at you

On 12/11/2019 at 12:11 AM, Nit0 said:

 

As for your low dmg with sap and ap, practice more. Nothing wrong with the AP on these guns, they do great against broadside cruisers. With SAP I can easily do 7-8k dmg on the superstructure of a battleship, but if you aim too low and hit the torpedobelt or something u won't do any dmg. So it requires that you know where to hit on the ship. DD's melt when you hit them with SAP, it's a killer.

Dude, I've blapped cruisers one-shot at 20km from my Texas. Maybe I need to practice, but unless you play another version of WoWS, SAP is inconsistent. Everyone else says it. You may be the mannequin for which WG have tailor made this crap-suit, but the remaining 99% of us peasants can't make SAP work..

The statement about the DDs is inconsistent with what is below here: hitting DDs or firing from range? You can do one of the two. Ok, if you find the right conditions (again, see above for a similar scenario) you might place 1 shell in a DD a 14km, but melting them requires going up close and personal, with the usual BB then deleting you  from the map

On 12/11/2019 at 12:11 AM, Nit0 said:

 

You are correct that fighting at a distance is the best option, and they do this quite well. Dodging incomming fire is not too hard in italian cruisers. And you have the luxury to disengage at will with the smoke, no other cruisers who like to kite can do that.

As for what you say below here...

On 12/11/2019 at 12:29 AM, Nit0 said:

Imagine a Lenin with 30k hp left bowtanking 2-3 ships and doing that just fine. And then he notice this smoke coming towards him in 36 knots. If that smoke knows what he is doing, he will eat at least 3-6 torps and when the smoke is out, he will have a cruiser behind him finnishing him off with SAP.  Today with the concealment Amalfi have, you won't be able to get past the Lenin before smoke is out, so he have a chance to kill you before you get past his guns. And sure, Prinz Eugen can try the same trick and many times succeed. But, if there is any enemy on the flank, that is a very risky maneuver to do. A 36 knot smoke won't face that risk, and thats why WG doesn't want to give italian cruisers better concealment or better torps.

If the Lenin is not a complete idiot he will blind-fire at the leading edge of the smoke and, well, smoke the Trento rushing at him at 36kts, which won't be able to fire even one of his launchers before being deleted.

Again, no.

Unless you have idiots/bots as your enemies (or unicums in the fullest of their worst and greatest brainfarts of their lives), smoke is a defensive get-out-of-dodge tool.

If you want to live and keep on fighting, that is.

Your little suggestion with the Lenin would work if your aim was an advantageous trade for your team, but, as with all examples you make, it's a very specific scenario, that appears in probably less than 1% of my games. Not worth building a doctrine around it...

 

RE your last sentence, well, unless you have insider information from WG, I don't se how you can be so sure.

What I can suspect, however, is that if a Russian/Soviet ship/line generated such a shitstorm among players, it would be buffed the week after release

But, of course, underpowered Russian/Soviet ships are not even an option when they are released...

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7 hours ago, soffici said:

That is a lot of IFs in one sentence. You'll need to have:

1) cooperating BB

2) low health BB

3) islands in the right positions

4) no one else spotting/shooting at you

Dude, I've blapped cruisers one-shot at 20km from my Texas. Maybe I need to practice, but unless you play another version of WoWS, SAP is inconsistent. Everyone else says it. You may be the mannequin for which WG have tailor made this crap-suit, but the remaining 99% of us peasants can't make SAP work..

The statement about the DDs is inconsistent with what is below here: hitting DDs or firing from range? You can do one of the two. Ok, if you find the right conditions (again, see above for a similar scenario) you might place 1 shell in a DD a 14km, but melting them requires going up close and personal, with the usual BB then deleting you  from the map

As for what you say below here...

If the Lenin is not a complete idiot he will blind-fire at the leading edge of the smoke and, well, smoke the Trento rushing at him at 36kts, which won't be able to fire even one of his launchers before being deleted.

Again, no.

Unless you have idiots/bots as your enemies (or unicums in the fullest of their worst and greatest brainfarts of their lives), smoke is a defensive get-out-of-dodge tool.

If you want to live and keep on fighting, that is.

Your little suggestion with the Lenin would work if your aim was an advantageous trade for your team, but, as with all examples you make, it's a very specific scenario, that appears in probably less than 1% of my games. Not worth building a doctrine around it...

 

RE your last sentence, well, unless you have insider information from WG, I don't se how you can be so sure.

What I can suspect, however, is that if a Russian/Soviet ship/line generated such a shitstorm among players, it would be buffed the week after release

But, of course, underpowered Russian/Soviet ships are not even an option when they are released...

Yes, it's called situational, and take the opportunities when you see them, it comes more natural with experience. Talking about experience, you seem to be quite an expert on how Lenin works even though you never have played a tier 8 BB before. 

 

It's not all black and white, you can find ways to surprise dds in any ship given the right situation. And sap is devastating to a DD when they are cought off guard. 

 

And yes, practice more. Your AVG dmg in Trento is 18k dmg, that is more on the player than the ships capabilities.

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2 hours ago, Nit0 said:

Yes, it's called situational, and take the opportunities when you see them, it comes more natural with experience. Talking about experience, you seem to be quite an expert on how Lenin works even though you never have played a tier 8 BB before. 

 

It's not all black and white, you can find ways to surprise dds in any ship given the right situation. And sap is devastating to a DD when they are cought off guard. 

 

And yes, practice more. Your AVG dmg in Trento is 18k dmg, that is more on the player than the ships capabilities.

Dude,

I've just looked at your profile, and now I understand.

First of all, you are a VERY GOOD player with LOTS of experience. Not the average Joe. But, disturbingly, you have almost NO EXPERIENCE on the RM CLs

Let me list your numbers:

Montecuccoli --> 2 battles --> 2 won

Trento --> 11 battles --> 6 won

Duca D'Aosta --> 4 battles --> 2 won

Zara --> 20 battles --> 13 won

Amalfi --> 20 battles --> 8 won

For a grand total of 57 battles. And you have skipped tiers 1-2-3-4

Now, with your level of experience on those ships I would call my posts just "first impressions". But that is just me and my penchant for statistical analysis, which requires larger numbers.

Or you may very well be some kind of genius who can tell just with a few battles what a ship is like, like the "golden arm" pilots can tell an aircraft from the first flight.

I certainly am not, so I've built a little more experience, especially at the lower tiers, to get a better feel for the whole line (my usual target is to get at least to 60% WR on a ship before moving on, but sometimes I get sloppy/frustrated/furious...).

Then, after reading and researching a bit more, I realised everyone was saying the fun started at iter 8, so I sailed through the Taranto as fast as I could, got stuck with the Giussano, suffered through the Montecuccoli and then hit a wall with the Trento.

And that ship (which, BTW, is the topic of this thread) was the straw that broke the horse's back.

Only 16 battles, yes, but 25% WR? Survived the battle maybe 2 times? Really? It has never happened to me with ANY ship. Admittedly, I don't have your huge experience, but I'm stubborn as a mule and when the going gets rough, well, I tighten my [edited]and try to fight on. But with the RM CLs by then I kinda had gotten the soundtrack of the entire line until Amalfi, and did not want to waste any more of my time on them.

Yes, I gave up, and I'm ashamed, even more so considering I am Italian...

 

What you call "situational" I call "one trick pony". The scenarios you portrayed might unfold maybe 1% of the time: you can set up the perfect ambush, but with the huge concealment these ships have, you can bet your [edited]someone is going to spot you before you can make your little trap work. Or, again, you are the Rommel of WoWS who can pull this trick 90% of the time. The rest of us, the average Joes, are not.

As for the Lenin comment, you can substitute the name of the ship with any other you like. It wasn't Lenin-specific. the concept I was trying to put forward was "look at the leading edge of the smoke and shoot there, where you'll find the smartass in the RM CL trying to be sneaky".

RE surprising DDs. I think of myself as a DD main, and try to excel at that (with mixed results, I must say). I fall victim of surprise show-ups by the occasional CL or DD, from time to time, and for that get duly deleted from the map, as I deserve. But many times in those cases I receive the "just a flesh wound" award, so the trade might be advantageous to the team.

And, yes, I know I need to practice. And that is why, with 1.5k battles, I am still lurking at tiers 3-4-5, with the occasional foray in tier 6 and 8 DDs.

 

It has now occurred to me that maybe, just maybe, RM CLs are not ships for the average Joe, and only a few particularly talented people will be able to shine in them. Maybe you are one of the few lucky ones. I am certainly not.

But when I see people like Flamu and Notser shitting on them (tiers < 8, that is), then my hypothesis loses some traction.

I don't know.

All I know is I was not enjoying the grind, for whatever reason (my fault, the ships' fault, whatever). It's a game, it should be fun, it wasn't.

And it's not the WR (I have crap WR also in the Gallant but absolutely LOVE it), it's the frustration that comes from the inability to be of any significance in the battle.

So I quit the line and went on with more enjoyable ships, if not better results...

 

Now, let's cut this here, w're hijacking the thread

 

Good hunting

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I can't say I'm having the same experience with the italians, sure I've only played a few games so far in them, but the damage appears good. Aiming at lightly armoured hulls and superstructures of anything else seem sot do well. I'll agree they struggle in certain situations, but that's the same for just about every other line.

 

Whilst I'm finding the Italians fine, for some reason I struggled with the mid tier French cruisers. The Algerie was painful and I have a terrible win rate in it. Just couldn't get it to work, not sure why teams just seemed to die and I found trying to control battle sand engagements really hard. Now on the Emile and its ok. I prefer the Japanese cruisers to the french though for the long range spamming.

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12 hours ago, Commander_Ericson said:

 

 

Whilst I'm finding the Italians fine, so some reason I struggled with the mid tier French cruisers. The Algerie as painful and I have a terrible win rate in it. Just couldn't get it to work. Now on the Emile and its ok. I prefer the Japanese cruisers to the french though for the long range spamming.

You can look forward to Saint Louis and Henri, both are really good cruisers and a lot of fun.

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8 guns with long reload is god awful.

 

In fact, so far this is the worst line I have ever ground!

 

It's slow reload, SAP is crap pound for pound (would much rather have fire), high concealment and floaty arcs.

 

It's awful.  

 

Cant even pen a perth at 10 km with SAP.  Pathetic, will free XP this crap line. 

 

 

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Playing the Trento after playing the Budyonny in the same gaming session.. how are these things in the same tier is beyond me :cap_tea:

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On 1/13/2020 at 9:14 PM, TohtoriP said:

Playing the Trento after playing the Budyonny in the same gaming session.. how are these things in the same tier is beyond me :cap_tea:

not too long ago, even Cleveland was in this tier...:Smile_teethhappy:

 

OT, had a few games in Trento and and it sucks big time for now. Will give it some more time though...

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Having ground the line now....

 

Skip the whole line to tier 8.  Up to tier 8 is the worst line i have played in this game.  Totally not worth grinding as there are so many better ships at each tier.

 

The Venezia, however, is the end to that early nightmare and is a very good ship, but i know that WG WILL nerf it.  Only a matter of time. 

 

All 3 (Amalfi, Brindisi and the Venezia) can be keepers and understandably so.  However, i have only kept one, the Venezia.  Normally i keep 1,2 or even 3 but one ship with SAP is enough for me.

 

The Venezia has more guns, auto bounce and better armour then the Brindisi so to me, there was no point in keeping it. Plus i love the Donky at tier 9 :cap_tea:

 

But tier 8, 9 and 10 are good ships. 

 

 

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On 1/13/2020 at 9:14 PM, TohtoriP said:

Playing the Trento after playing the Budyonny in the same gaming session.. how are these things in the same tier is beyond me :cap_tea:

Probably, but problem is not Trento, but Buddy. I'm never scared of a T8 game with Buddyonny, unlike any other T6 cruiser since Cleveland was moved up

 

I'm surprised it's never been nerfed... oh wait, it's a Russian ship.

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