ST, changes to ricochet angles of SAP shells

[shonai]

Italian cruisers of tiers III - IX:

• The angle at which the check for ricochets is made for SAP shells is increased from 65 to 70 degrees.

This change will make SAP shells more effective against targets that are angled sharply.

 

Please note that the information in the Development Blog is preliminary and subject to change.

[ColonelPete]

I still think that SAP shells should do less damage than AP shells, but more than normal HE shells.

 

• AP shells need are role, if SAP does more damage than AP, AP is useless, except on citadels, and we all know how good you can predict these with long reloads
• you can then speed up the reload, which gives players a better handling of the ships
• you could reduce the SAP damage by 20% globally and also reduce the reload of the guns by 20% globally, SAP DPM would not change
• yes, AP DPM would increase, but I do not see a problem there, considering the still slow reload

Apart from that I suggest to take a look at the italian cruisers individually, some of them are in need of tweaking.

I know that you prefer more data before implementing changes, but the state of Genova for example is pretty obvious. Reducing her reload by one second will help her a bit, but is not too much that you need to fear that she becomes too strong. But the players will see that you noted the problem and are willing to do something about it.

[Chaos_Umbra]

Still doesn't change that the ships have some of the worst rudders and worst concealments along with terrible reload and the largest citadels amongst all cruisers... the lack of hydro and the limitations of the default ammunition were just the icing on the cake... thank god they haven't balanced the Ducas to match the tech tree ships so I can still have fun in them, without wishing I was in any other cruiser...

[Toivia]

I fully support ColonelPete's proposal.

[Isoruku_Yamamoto]

I only own Genova, but unlike many other ppl i dontthink it needs a DPM or RoF buff. Instead, this change is exactly what it needs: better functioning of the SAP. 

The proposed change 65 to 70deg is too small though, thericochet angles should be 75deg minimum. 

Right now some british cruisers have equally good AP ricochet angles as italian SAP. SAP should detonate virtually always with the option for pen and non pen. 

The key feature in the 0.8.7 announce was this:

 

They may ricochet after hitting their target, but they do have better ricochet angles than AP shells

 

So lets make that happen. 75-80deg ricochet angle makes perfect sense. 

Only ricochetting off angle bow/hull armour, not off superstructures

 

 

[Chaos_Umbra]

1 hour ago, Isoruku_Yamamoto said:

I only own Genova, but unlike many other ppl i dontthink it needs a DPM or RoF buff. Instead, this change is exactly what it needs: better functioning of the SAP. 

The proposed change 65 to 70deg is too small though, thericochet angles should be 75deg minimum. 

Right now some british cruisers have equally good AP ricochet angles as italian SAP. SAP should detonate virtually always with the option for pen and non pen. 

The key feature in the 0.8.7 announce was this:

 

They may ricochet after hitting their target, but they do have better ricochet angles than AP shells

 

So lets make that happen. 75-80deg ricochet angle makes perfect sense. 

Only ricochetting off angle bow/hull armour, not off superstructures

 

 

Problem is if you make the angles too good you have a ship that you cannot angle against and unlike HE damage you can't heal all the SAP damage back as it is essentially an AP shell... not sure anyone would like to take 15k salvos from the front especially BB players... though cruisers will be hit hardest.

 

This ammo seems to go from nearly useless to down right OP and to try and balance it out they are nurfing the base ship stats to compensate which just end up making them unfun to play...

[Isoruku_Yamamoto]

7 hours ago, Chaos_Umbra said:

Problem is if you make the angles too good you have a ship that you cannot angle against and unlike HE damage you can't heal all the SAP damage back as it is essentially an AP shell... not sure anyone would like to take 15k salvos from the front especially BB players... though cruisers will be hit hardest.

 

This ammo seems to go from nearly useless to down right OP and to try and balance it out they are nurfing the base ship stats to compensate which just end up making them unfun to play...

The base ship stats on Genova at least are fine.

Yes the reload is long, but its quite stealthy, fast, manoeuvrable and it can oneshot a myoko. 

It seems to have excellent krupp value on the AP too. 

The torpedo arcs and reload are very generous, which make that a useful weapon in close combat, and it has decent armour. Maybe not a ship for everyone, but its a good ship. 

 

Now the SAP is a different story since in most cases it is inherently bad. I understand that giving SAP no ricochet angle (thats 90deg) would be OP really. My point is that currently you have s shell thats meant to deal with angled cruisers/ BBs, except it cant. And thats not good.

Which is why the buff is good, but i genuinely think it should be more than a 5deg increase

[CptBarney]

6 hours ago, Isoruku_Yamamoto said:

The base ship stats on Genova at least are fine.

Yes the reload is long, but its quite stealthy, fast, manoeuvrable and it can oneshot a myoko. 

It seems to have excellent krupp value on the AP too. 

The torpedo arcs and reload are very generous, which make that a useful weapon in close combat, and it has decent armour. Maybe not a ship for everyone, but its a good ship. 

 

Now the SAP is a different story since in most cases it is inherently bad. I understand that giving SAP no ricochet angle (thats 90deg) would be OP really. My point is that currently you have s shell thats meant to deal with angled cruisers/ BBs, except it cant. And thats not good.

Which is why the buff is good, but i genuinely think it should be more than a 5deg increase

I find genovas to be a non issue even in the tier 5 italian ship. Mainly due to terrible reload, awkward gun turret speed and various other problems it has.

 

Not too mention when it has to compete against a now improved emerald and god forbid an emile bertin. Nevermind the furutaka which is basically a better ship than it in most aspects.

 

Thankfully the playerbase in this game is terrible otherwise against competent players and above you will be sorely pressed.

 

I also find sap shells to be really awkward to fire with, but i guess learning something new isnt always a bad thing.

 

oddly enough sap shells seem to have a werid balancing dilemma.

 

oh well.

[Isoruku_Yamamoto]

8 minutes ago, CptBarney said:

I find genovas to be a non issue even in the tier 5 italian ship. Mainly due to terrible reload, awkward gun turret speed and various other problems it has.

 

Not too mention when it has to compete against a now improved emerald and god forbid an emile bertin. Nevermind the furutaka which is basically a better ship than it in most aspects.

 

Thankfully the playerbase in this game is terrible otherwise against competent players and above you will be sorely pressed.

 

I also find sap shells to be really awkward to fire with, but i guess learning something new isnt always a bad thing.

 

oddly enough sap shells seem to have a werid balancing dilemma.

 

oh well.

Yeah well i honestly think the Genova is quite a good ship when it comes to AP and torpedos, but many people are scared off by the long reload. 
i find the great AP ballistics, shell behaviour and citadel potential to more than offset the reload time. Oneshotting tier 7 cruisers is no joke IMO. 
Not sure is a tier 5 ship should be balanced around a 20s reload, but i kinda like it. Not every ship has to be the same. 
I wouldnt necessarily buy the Genova though.

The SAP is the main thing holding the Genova back and that needs severe buffs, what i'd like to see is a small alpha reduction (10%) in exchange for 75 deg or even 80deg ricochet angles. Current ricochet angles make them useless

[Toivia]

10 hours ago, Isoruku_Yamamoto said:

Yeah well i honestly think the Genova is quite a good ship when it comes to AP and torpedos, but many people are scared off by the long reload. 
i find the great AP ballistics, shell behaviour and citadel potential to more than offset the reload time. Oneshotting tier 7 cruisers is no joke IMO. 
Not sure is a tier 5 ship should be balanced around a 20s reload, but i kinda like it. Not every ship has to be the same. 
I wouldnt necessarily buy the Genova though.

The SAP is the main thing holding the Genova back and that needs severe buffs, what i'd like to see is a small alpha reduction (10%) in exchange for 75 deg or even 80deg ricochet angles. Current ricochet angles make them useless

My main issue with Genova specifically is how fragile it is. Light cruisers can citadel it across the map. Even Montecuccoli weathers enemy salvoes far better AND you have the smoke on it.

 

SAP is another question and one that is global to all the ITA cruisers. As said above, I'd wish for it's alpha to be reduced and reload reduced accordingly. Then you have more chances to use it decently while also making italian AP far more worthwhile.

[Isoruku_Yamamoto]

10 hours ago, Toivia said:

My main issue with Genova specifically is how fragile it is. Light cruisers can citadel it across the map. Even Montecuccoli weathers enemy salvoes far better AND you have the smoke on it.

 

SAP is another question and one that is global to all the ITA cruisers. As said above, I'd wish for it's alpha to be reduced and reload reduced accordingly. Then you have more chances to use it decently while also making italian AP far more worthwhile.

Well you could see long reload as a gimmick. 

Equal dpm under faster reload wont help that much against saturated or well angled targets, so that doesnt solve too much imo. 

The armour scheme on genova at least is very useful but specific. It is more useful than furutakas for instance, but going broadside is still a terrible plan. 

I also think the italian regular AP looks fine if i can judge it just by genova. SAP is my only issue, and the way to address that is improving this angle. Im just curious if 5deg improvement is enough

[Toivia]

Yeah, faster reload won't help "that much", but I'm a firm proponent of more opportunities better than fewer. Other than having more chances to shoot an enemy and aim again/better (consider the enemy has less time to angle well), with a shorter reload you also gain the ability to better/more easily/more efficiently switch ammo in case the other type is a better choice.

 

And I still find the fact that SAP does more damage to a broadside target than AP ridiculous (minus the "chance" for AP citadels). So lowering that alpha has that much more reason to be done. AND it helps solve the ridiculous damage SAP does to DDs. Again I find it better for DDs that they take 4k DMG on the first SAP salvo and have time to angle/run/smoke/torp/... before potentially taking another 4k salvo rather than taking an outright 8k savo and get deleted with no counterplay.

 

Yeah, it's a lot of small things that in my mind such a change would help with.

 

PS: Genova broadside is obvious, but I keep getting deleted through any angle, kinda like the old Emerald, only I don't have a heal or smoke...

[Venatos]

there has to be a reason to load SAP over AP and the other way around. SAP should be more universal than AP and not just bounce off a bowtanking DD. did anyone try winning a bowtank battle against a DD? it is hilarious! spoileralert: you are loosing that one.

 

SAP with better ricochet angels can get a damage reduction, it would still outperform overpenning and ricocheting AP, but unable to outmatch AP against broadside targets.

 

atm it either replaces AP or sucks, because it competes for the same role, which is kinda pointless.

[HaachamaShipping]

On 11/1/2019 at 8:28 AM, Isoruku_Yamamoto said:

Yes the reload is long, but its quite stealthy, fast, manoeuvrable and it can oneshot a myoko. 

8x4,700=37,600

 

Myoko has 39,200 hp. Unless it is stock, you cannot oneshot a Myoko and even then it requires all 8 shells to be cits. On the flipside, Myoko obviously can wreck Genova hard. As can most things.

[Panocek]

On 11/1/2019 at 12:46 AM, Chaos_Umbra said:

unlike HE damage you can't heal all the SAP damage back as it is essentially an AP shell

"penetration damage", be it from HE, AP, SAP or holy moses is 50% recoverable unless ship in question have improved % recovery like Brit BBs

[ilektrologos]

On 11/1/2019 at 1:46 AM, Chaos_Umbra said:

Problem is if you make the angles too good you have a ship that you cannot angle against and unlike HE damage you can't heal all the SAP damage back as it is essentially an AP shell... not sure anyone would like to take 15k salvos from the front especially BB players... though cruisers will be hit hardest.

 

This ammo seems to go from nearly useless to down right OP and to try and balance it out they are nurfing the base ship stats to compensate which just end up making them unfun to play...

They wanted to bring "glass cannon" toons into the game. They should make it happen already. Shell traveling time is abysmal, armor non-existant , torps are too slow to rely upon, no actual smoke - long time of cunsumables, sap as it is...rather situational...Dont basically mind the reload time if it Actually worth the time.

[Chaos_Umbra]

7 hours ago, ilektrologos said:

They wanted to bring "glass cannon" toons into the game. They should make it happen already. Shell traveling time is abysmal, armor non-existant , torps are too slow to rely upon, no actual smoke - long time of cunsumables, sap as it is...rather situational...Dont basically mind the reload time if it Actually worth the time.

Except there are ships with a better Alpha damage and faster reload on the same tiers... leaving the Italian cruisers as down right terrible...

[invicta2012]

On 11/2/2019 at 1:15 PM, Toivia said:

PS: Genova broadside is obvious, but I keep getting deleted through any angle, kinda like the old Emerald, only I don't have a heal or smoke...

It seems that ships 10-12k away have the ability to penetrate her citadel deck with ease (which is Emerald's problem too). Once you're closer and shells are hitting the sides of the ship Genova is stronger. 

[Toivia]

I'm not playing Genova again. Seriously anything at T5 is better. Montecuccoli is way better in both offense and defense.

Something I didn't realise is also a weakness of Genova is the (lack of) speed of the shells. Shooting anything but a BB at over 10kms will result in a miss if that target even thinks about his rudder. Meanwhile anything can hit it and do damage to it right back.

 

Genova is basically an Emerald without heal and without smoke and with far fewer torps. Yeah, who thought that would end up well...

[Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu]

2 hours ago, Toivia said:

I'm not playing Genova again. Seriously anything at T5 is better. Montecuccoli is way better in both offense and defense.

Something I didn't realise is also a weakness of Genova is the (lack of) speed of the shells. Shooting anything but a BB at over 10kms will result in a miss if that target even thinks about his rudder. Meanwhile anything can hit it and do damage to it right back.

 

Genova is basically an Emerald without heal and without smoke and with far fewer torps. Yeah, who thought that would end up well...

The first thing I noticed about her was her abyssmal ballistics, although Trento is no better and tier 6. My initial successes with Genova were soon neutralised by her lacking general performance.

[Toivia]

3 hours ago, Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu said:

The first thing I noticed about her was her abyssmal ballistics, although Trento is no better and tier 6. My initial successes with Genova were soon neutralised by her lacking general performance.

As I first tend to play a number of battles in Coop with most new ships, I had the luxury to "brawl" a lot with Genova. As in, actually use the torps (though they are slow even when fighting within 4kms) and get some nice AP volleys against other low tier cruisers. Even that, I must say, was a bit hit and miss, because almost any ship could easily end me at any time during these brawls.

But when taking Genova in Randoms, it quickly turned out that playing at any "reasonable" range, Genova quickly loses any semblance of capability...

 

Well, thank you for telling me about Trento's similar woes. It only reinforces the notion that RM cruisers get playable at T8, maybe T7 at best. And by playable I certainly don't mean good (though one can still hope at least some of them will get to shine).

[Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu]

47 minutes ago, Toivia said:

Well, thank you for telling me about Trento's similar woes. It only reinforces the notion that RM cruisers get playable at T8, maybe T7 at best. And by playable I certainly don't mean good (though one can still hope at least some of them will get to shine).

As Genova appears to be some sort of fake prototype trento they wield the same armament, with Genova bringing 203s to tier 5 instead of Montes 152s. As far as I can tell, Trentos guns are identical to Genovas, except for the noticable improvement of a 15s reload and an extra 2km range. She still suffers with very floaty shells that can make hitting anything at a distance frustrating, more so with the inconsistent results of the shells.

 

Zara, which I've had the pleasure of using during this early access period has significantly better gun handling, with shells at the maximal 16.11km range taking almost 25% less time to arrive, which really seems to make a considerable difference. Amalfi further improves on the ballistics with even faster SAP shells, the same performance as the tier 9 and 10.

[Chaos_Umbra]

On 11/8/2019 at 2:34 AM, Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu said:

As Genova appears to be some sort of fake prototype trento they wield the same armament, with Genova bringing 203s to tier 5 instead of Montes 152s. As far as I can tell, Trentos guns are identical to Genovas, except for the noticable improvement of a 15s reload and an extra 2km range. She still suffers with very floaty shells that can make hitting anything at a distance frustrating, more so with the inconsistent results of the shells.

 

Zara, which I've had the pleasure of using during this early access period has significantly better gun handling, with shells at the maximal 16.11km range taking almost 25% less time to arrive, which really seems to make a considerable difference. Amalfi further improves on the ballistics with even faster SAP shells, the same performance as the tier 9 and 10.

Shame that shell velocity does nothing for improving SAP shells, if only the AP had the same Velocity...

[Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu]

1 minute ago, Chaos_Umbra said:

Shame that shell velocity does nothing for improving SAP shells, if only the AP had the same Velocity...

It makes it easier to hit with them.

[Chaos_Umbra]

Just now, Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu said:

It makes it easier to hit with them.

Plunging fire makes it easier to pen with SAP though...