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LowSpeedHighDrag

Max Filth gathering Basic needs

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Hello all,

 

After having played enough games to notice a trend, I have decided to post here to get your feedback and  your thoughts of course.

 

There is a guaranteed method to extract to the Portal without having to fight with other players, but with only AIs. 

This only works if NO one fires onto each other and agrees with the "truce". 

Also pressing P to disable secondary fire when near other players would help too.

If you have agreed to a truce from the start. At least see it through. 

 

40% of 100% is better than 0% of 100% when killed.

 

If your intention is to back stab others at the last moment, at least be honest and state your intentions. 

Don't be the type of person that agrees to a truce, and camps by the Portal to kill others and take their collected filth (I've seen many Clan divisions that do this).

 

For some, this may be a "tactic" but this is beyond what the game is designed for.  It wasn't designed for us to back stab each other, otherwise other scenario types and consumables may have been available to encourage it.  But this isn't.  If your intention is to kill steal, at least be honest to yourself and not agree to the truce or say nothing or at least earn it honestly.

 

 

 

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The game wasn't designed for diplomatic crap in chat. Your enemies are red for a reason. Don't go around trusting your enemy in a video game. Simple like that. 

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18 hours ago, Yoshanai said:

The game wasn't designed for diplomatic crap in chat. Your enemies are red for a reason. Don't go around trusting your enemy in a video game. Simple like that. 

Edit: be nice to each other please

 

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It's worth proposing a truce and try to just farm resources but not everyone is up for that, so never let your guard down especially when heading to the portal. So make sure you go as a group at least their is some safety in numbers. 

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29 minutes ago, LowSpeedHighDrag said:

Hello all,

 

After having played enough games to notice a trend, I have decided to post here to get your feedback and  your thoughts of course.

 

There is a guaranteed method to extract to the Portal without having to fight with other players, but with only AIs. 

This only works if NO one fires onto each other and agrees with the "truce". 

Also pressing P to disable secondary fire when near other players would help too.

If you have agreed to a truce from the start. At least see it through. 

 

40% of 100% is better than 0% of 100% when killed.

 

If your intention is to back stab others at the last moment, at least be honest and state your intentions. 

Don't be the type of person that agrees to a truce, and camps by the Portal to kill others and take their collected filth (I've seen many Clan divisions that do this).

 

For some, this may be a "tactic" but this is beyond what the game is designed for.  It wasn't designed for us to back stab each other, otherwise other scenario types and consumables may have been available to encourage it.  But this isn't.  If your intention is to kill steal, at least be honest to yourself and not agree to the truce or say nothing or at least earn it honestly.

 

 

 

Or you can go back to coop. Who cares about min-maxing in this event.

 

Enemy ships are red for a reason, just shoot everything :Smile_honoring:

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You know your arguement is wrong when you claim the game mode isnt designed to back stab each other, and at the same time state people need to turn off their secondaries to stop the ships AUTOMATICALLY firing at other players.

 

The game mode very clearly is designed for players to fight/back stab each other - that's why there's 3 teams, all the other teams flag up as enemies, you can kill them, and you can steal their filth. If it was supposed to be cooperative, everyone would be green and on the same team, like ops, or coop.

 

Now YOU might like to game the system, by deliberately not shooting other players and sailing around in a pacifist clockwise circle farming bots, but dont get pissed that other people "aren't playing it the way they're suppossed to" when clearly it's you that's trying to game the system.

 

You want to enforce a pacifist farming mode. They simply lie about joining in, and wait to steal your stuff. Difference is you then come complaining that you don't like their methods, and that it's not "nice"

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i dont think the argument really is about how its meant to be played just the issue that if we didnt fight each other everyone could get the rewards much faster and get back to ships where progress matters.

 

i definitely think the death penalty should be greatly reduced, i feel bad killing players, it rarely if ever benifits me my hold was already full im just costing the other guy time. i dont much mind i dont want any of the rewards really , just some coal for the bank incase there is ever a ship i want there im just playing it because of how much more fun it is than the normal mode. 

it just makes it a bit toxic having the deaths matter, puts a tension between farmers and griefers that doesnt need to be there

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Vor 2 Minuten, Padds01 sagte:

i dont think the argument really is about how its meant to be played just the issue that if we didnt fight each other everyone could get the rewards much faster and get back to ships where progress matters.

 

i definitely think the death penalty should be greatly reduced, i feel bad killing players, it rarely if ever benifits me my hold was already full im just costing the other guy time. i dont much mind i dont want any of the rewards really , just some coal for the bank incase there is ever a ship i want there im just playing it because of how much more fun it is than the normal mode. 

it just makes it a bit toxic having the deaths matter, puts a tension between farmers and griefers that doesnt need to be there

There is no griefing in a PVP event. Get over it. 

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12 minutes ago, Padds01 said:

i dont think the argument really is about how its meant to be played just the issue that if we didnt fight each other everyone could get the rewards much faster and get back to ships where progress matters.

 

i definitely think the death penalty should be greatly reduced, i feel bad killing players, it rarely if ever benifits me my hold was already full im just costing the other guy time. i dont much mind i dont want any of the rewards really , just some coal for the bank incase there is ever a ship i want there im just playing it because of how much more fun it is than the normal mode. 

it just makes it a bit toxic having the deaths matter, puts a tension between farmers and griefers that doesnt need to be there

You also get credits and xp for killing ships, so extra bonus for killing farmers doesnt hurt :Smile_honoring:

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I think the funniest situation I have seen from this mode so far, and goes to show how (1) daft some players are, and (2) how greed can fog the eyes to the posterior kicking about to descend, was the last game I was in.

 

My team nabbed 900 filth and then took one look at the minimap, saw we were surrounded, said screw this, cut our losses and bolted for the exit before the wall of skill spawned. Pursued by one team (A) who had been firing on us for a few minutes and harassed us the whole way across the inner ring and then intercepted by the other team (B) who tried to stop us from reaching the portal (sadly sunk our Cruiser but I grabbed his Filth on the way through)

 

Thus we made it out with a tidy profit.

 

Team A has one DD make it through the portal while both Cruisers decided to take on Ra-Ra-Rasputin (Didn't we kill this guy already?) while Team (B) faffed about around the portal for a bit, then decided to go to Rasputin themselves.

 

Team (A) successfully took down Rasputin through healing each other and generous amounts of HE and collected a big, fat wad of filth.... only for the second team to intercept them and sink them on the way back...

 

Team (B) had about 10 seconds to gloat over their victory before the AI wall of skill arrived and proceeded to ask "Can you Torpedo Beat?"

 

.....

 

....

 

The answer was no.

 

Cue team A and B 'leaving' with about 400 Filth. (And the ringing sound of me laughing my backside off in spectate mode)

 

The game before that one,  all three teams ganged up together and we all made about 1.5k Filth each and everyone made it to the portal intact.

Edited by DeviousDave02
because apparently [edited] is bad word around here
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2 hours ago, LowSpeedHighDrag said:

If your intention is to back stab others at the last moment, at least be honest and state your intentions. 

But wouldnt that make my backstab less effective no?

 

This whole event is basically just the prisoners dilemma, where the only good option for every single player, is also the option which is bad for everyone.

 

there was an old games show that went into it with "split or steal" idea being that if both players split, they split the money, if one steals, he gets all the money, of both steal, none of them get money. Both stealing is the worst outcome, but stealing is still the best only good play.

 

heres an example of what im on about:

 

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1 hour ago, Yoshanai said:

There is no griefing in a PVP event. Get over it. 

nothing to get over but thanks for your point of view i and i am sure many others found it insightful and useful. 

 

but i would say that griefing is in intent not action and so your assumption that it is a pvp event is not only one i think at least debatable , griefing is certainly not restricted to pve activities, but ultimately irrelevant 

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Vor 15 Minuten, Padds01 sagte:

nothing to get over but thanks for your point of view i and i am sure many others found it insightful and useful. 

 

but i would say that griefing is in intent not action and so your assumption that it is a pvp event is not only one i think at least debatable , griefing is certainly not restricted to pve activities, but ultimately irrelevant 

Killing enemy ships can not be considered griefing in any way. 

Thats all that's important. 

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10 hours ago, LowSpeedHighDrag said:

 

40% of 100% is better than 0% of 100% when killed.

Technically... If you die, you still bring 20% of the filth collected, not 0% like you claim.

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10 hours ago, LowSpeedHighDrag said:

If you have agreed to a truce from the start.

And most the time only a few people know English ... What is a "truce" ? Some kind of animal or mayby a fish ?

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9 hours ago, DeviousDave02 said:

I think the funniest situation I have seen from this mode so far, and goes to show how (1) daft some players are, and (2) how greed can fog the eyes to the posterior kicking about to descend, was the last game I was in.

 

My team nabbed 900 filth and then took one look at the minimap, saw we were surrounded, said screw this, cut our losses and bolted for the exit before the wall of skill spawned. Pursued by one team (A) who had been firing on us for a few minutes and harassed us the whole way across the inner ring and then intercepted by the other team (B) who tried to stop us from reaching the portal (sadly sunk our Cruiser but I grabbed his Filth on the way through)

 

Thus we made it out with a tidy profit.

 

Team A has one DD make it through the portal while both Cruisers decided to take on Ra-Ra-Rasputin (Didn't we kill this guy already?) while Team (B) faffed about around the portal for a bit, then decided to go to Rasputin themselves.

 

Team (A) successfully took down Rasputin through healing each other and generous amounts of HE and collected a big, fat wad of filth.... only for the second team to intercept them and sink them on the way back...

 

Team (B) had about 10 seconds to gloat over their victory before the AI wall of skill arrived and proceeded to ask "Can you Torpedo Beat?"

 

.....

 

....

 

The answer was no.

 

Cue team A and B 'leaving' with about 400 Filth. (And the ringing sound of me laughing my backside off in spectate mode)

 

The game before that one,  all three teams ganged up together and we all made about 1.5k Filth each and everyone made it to the portal intact.

 

I think what some people like you might not realize is that a proper setup gives you 2700 filth per match. Rasputin doesn't give enough for 3 teams to reach that amount. See the 900 you made is almost what you get when 3 BBs fill up and die. 1.5k isn't much either the very achievable result without gaming the system is twice that.

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29 minutes ago, Pappus said:

 

I think what some people like you might not realize is that a proper setup gives you 2700 filth per match. Rasputin doesn't give enough for 3 teams to reach that amount. See the 900 you made is almost what you get when 3 BBs fill up and die. 1.5k isn't much either the very achievable result without gaming the system is twice that.

Which is nice, except I was playing solo with randoms so no set up at all :Smile_teethhappy:

 

And we would have probably gotten more except for the truce started to crack when one 'person of questionable intelligence' on another team started randomly shooting his guns off despite his team mates telling him to stop which spooked everyone else into a standoff. So we all decided to leave before anything escalated.

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1 hour ago, DeviousDave02 said:

Which is nice, except I was playing solo with randoms so no set up at all :Smile_teethhappy:

 

And we would have probably gotten more except for the truce started to crack when one 'person of questionable intelligence' on another team started randomly shooting his guns off despite his team mates telling him to stop which spooked everyone else into a standoff. So we all decided to leave before anything escalated.

Yeah me too. You want rasputin you pick crocosaur or the healing cl and tell your mates to go rasp and follow you. Not like you need a team that knows what it is doing.

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Some players are just griefers in this mode.

Had a team tonight that did barely anything but hunt and sink other players.

I had them chase me to the map border, none of us survived nor made it in time to extract. :cap_like: I hate this type of player

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Are the rewards any good in this event? By that i mean can you get ships or coal? (The only things i care about).

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35 minutes ago, CptBarney said:

Are the rewards any good in this event? By that i mean can you get ships or coal? (The only things i care about).

Well, you can pick up at least 15000 coal in the bundles, along with 3 premium camos(usual accuracy and concealment with -10% repair cost, +50% credits) that can be permanently linked to a tier 8, 9 and 10 ship respectively. To be honest, I am not a big fan of strange camos, but I am too cheap to buy permanent ones for doubloons, so especially the tier10 would come in handy.

A lot of flags+Halloween camos/Freexp/CaptainXp/credits combinations. However high level bundles cost 8000filth each and you really need a lot of filth to get them all. 

There are some 'infernal' camos +10pt captains for some specific ships at 8000filth. 

I found that playing in a 2BB+1CA division with clanmates is pretty rewarding. In most of the games we managed to kill Rasputin and max up to 2700filth. Only when Rasputin spawned on the other side of the map were we killed because we ran out of time and were swarmed by Mutant-Khabas. Most teams we ran into were random uncoordinated guys who chose to exit quite quickly. On a couple of occasions we joined forces with another team against Rasputin, and although the reward wasn't enough to fill all of us, the combined firepower made battling through to the portal much easier. 

 

I find the idea of an ambush at the portal quite unlikely. By the time someone else farmed Rasputin and came to the portal it is usually well past 15min and the MuKhabas already started spawning at the entrance to the portal bay. Those pesky late game DD bots are quite vicious and are probably the most challenging part of the raid. They have fast quick reloading torps and invulnerability consumable and will go for ram attacks which may result in a ship getting stuck in one of their wrecks and unable to exit. A 'pirate' team waiting near the portal would be heavily engaged and might even turn out to be a blessing in disguise, drawing the bots and leaving a clear way to the gate for the other team(s). 

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The Prisoner's Dilemma - Halloween Edition

 

Good heavens, but this game offers some unexpected golden moments! :Smile_Default:

 

I hadn't thought of it before opening this thread, but as someone referred to above, this Twilight Battles mode - the Quest for Filth - is yet another version of the Prisoner's Dilemma, which is classical game theory at its best. See the spoiler caption below for a short description.

 

The Prisoner's Dilemma:

Spoiler

The prisoner's dilemma is a standard example of a game analyzed in game theory that shows why two completely rational individuals might not cooperate, even if it appears that it is in their best interests to do so. It was originally framed by Merrill Flood and Melvin Dresher while working at RAND in 1950. Albert W. Tucker formalized the game with prison sentence rewards and named it "prisoner's dilemma", presenting it as follows:

Two members of a criminal gang are arrested and imprisoned. Each prisoner is in solitary confinement with no means of communicating with the other. The prosecutors lack sufficient evidence to convict the pair on the principal charge, but they have enough to convict both on a lesser charge. Simultaneously, the prosecutors offer each prisoner a bargain. Each prisoner is given the opportunity either to betray the other by testifying that the other committed the crime, or to cooperate with the other by remaining silent. The possible outcomes are:

  • If A and B each betray the other, each of them serves two years in prison
  • If A betrays B but B remains silent, A will be set free and B will serve three years in prison (and vice versa)
  • If A and B both remain silent, both of them will serve only one year in prison (on the lesser charge).

It is implied that the prisoners will have no opportunity to reward or punish their partner other than the prison sentences they get and that their decision will not affect their reputation in the future. Because betraying a partner offers a greater reward than cooperating with them, all purely rational self-interested prisoners will betray the other, meaning the only possible outcome for two purely rational prisoners is for them to betray each other.[2] The interesting part of this result is that pursuing individual reward logically leads both of the prisoners to betray when they would get a better individual reward if they both kept silent. In reality, humans display a systemic bias towards cooperative behaviour in this and similar games despite what is predicted by simple models of "rational" self-interested action.[3][4][5][6] This bias towards cooperation has been known since the test was first conducted at RAND; the secretaries involved trusted each other and worked together for the best common outcome.

 

The circumstances and options that constitute the Prisoner's Dilemma seem to hold up pretty well in this WoWs scenario (my compliments to the Wargaming staff for this). It would indeed be profitable, at least in the long run, if everyone agreed to a truce so that the participants could gather filth without having to worry about attacks from anyone other than the bots. On the other hand, ambushing a trusting ally and stealing his stuff right outside the portal is more profitable in the short run.

 

So, how does one go about this, morally, ethically and practically?

 

Here' my take on this.

 

The World of Warships is a light-hearted arcade game set in a naval battles environment. Its main purpose is to have a good time while playing for the objectives. These objectives change a bit according to what game mode you are in, though. In random battles you do your best to sink the ships of the opposite team, while in co-op or regular scenarios you cooperate with all the other players. Neither of these game modes makes it possible to agree, or not agree, upon a truce - you're either in conflict or you aren't.

 

This particular Twilight Battles scenario is different. The main objective for each of the three teams is to gather filth, and the victory conditions do not care about whether they do this while fighting against the other two teams or not. In other words, there is a choice on whether or not to fight each other. Everyone is thus free to agree upon a truce, but - and this is important! - there is no in-game mechanic that compels players to abide by such an agreement. Such a mechanic would have been easy to implement; it could have taken the same form as when one accepts an invitation to division, and simply joined players together in expanded teams, making them incapable of inflicting damage on each other. In the absence of such a mechanic, it follows that breaking an agreed truce is actually in accordance with the rules.

 

In short, I can only surmise that in this game mode, trust and (possible) betrayal are both part of the game.

 

I can of course only speak for myself, but I think this is a wonderfully clever way for Wargaming to build a scenario. It adds a whole new dimension to the gameplay. It should be stressed, though, that since the possibility of a betrayal is openly on the table, any such decision should be accepted as part of the game. There is no cause for hard feelings. It's like the old tabletop game Junta, where betrayal was an integral part of the rules - and that game was certainly best played by a circle of good friends, since there was otherwise a very real danger of people having their feelings hurt for real.*

 

So while I do understand your point, @LowSpeedHighDrag, I must respectfully disagree. As I see it, this game mode was explicitly designed to make it possible for the players both to cooperate across team borders, and to backstab each other. That doesn't mean they have to do so - there can be lots of reasons to choose to honour an in-game truce - but the very fact that there is a choice, adds a whole new dimension to the team play.

 

Or at least that is how I see it. I might well agree on a truce if asked in chat, but I'd keep a close eye on my new frenemy, and I would be neither surprised nor offended if he turned on me at an opportune moment. In fact, a well-timed and profitable "betrayal" would certainly earn him a compliment for a game well played! :Smile_great:


Happy Halloween, everyone!

:Smile_honoring:

 

EDITED: I have now played a few more Twilight Battles, farming for filth. Or trying to, anyway. Unless one is part of a well-drilled team, it's danged hard getting through that portal with a cargo of filth. What I've said above still stands, but I will add this: I, personally, will honour any peace agreement made in such a battle. I would have done this anyway, but backstabbing someone else when there is so much filth at stake in such an uphill battle takes a somewhat more cold-blooded gamer-cynic than I have ever pretended to be. I won't judge anyone for their choices in this deliciously sordid game mode, but there you have it! 

 

* I should probably make it clear, here, that I am most definitely not angling for having a "truce and betrayal" mechanic introduced into ordinary Random Battles. Doing any such thing would break that game mode completely.

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I'm reading a lot about this (I'm still occupied with Saving Transylvania and Sunray in the Darkness) and I don't know what to think of it.

I don't care about credits (surprising, this year I'm far for becoming bankrupt) , coal or permanent camo (I've got at least one, the Scalab and I don't use it, mainly because it gets old/annoying very fast.)

Apparently in this mode, WG is recruiting players to be the "bots".

This mode, seems to me very hostile to farm elite XP

 

 

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