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why german BBs should be the worst BB line in game?

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18 hours ago, ForlornSailor said:

This entire thing might more be a problem of powercreep then with the german BBs itself.

 

Germans have been given the worst faction gimmicks in WOWS, they've been crippled from day 1.

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12 minutes ago, Rautainen_Biisoni said:

Shell trajectory is so flat that the closer u get the more overpens you get. Desmoines used to eat citadels and these days it only takes overpens when showing broadside. Stay further out and u get more damage and take less.

 

A single Smolensk can pretty much drain 1k health from you every few seconds while a BB waits 30 seconds to reload. I ain't afraid of BB that I can angle against but a HE burner nearby and I sure as hell gonna shoot him first. Also you have to see that Smolenks before u can overpen him.

 

I've played BBs quite a lot lately, mostly Georgia, LM Yamato and Kremlin. Not a chance in hell any of those guns are better at 15+ range, that's simply not true, even for Yamato's. 

 

And for every time a Smolensk has sunk me I've sunk three. You just have to remember that driving a BB doesn't mean you are immune to everything and staying 2+ minutes sailing in front of a Smolensk in open water will hurt. And yet a bit of maths will tell you that 1-2k damage every 4,5 seconds amounts to no more than 7-14k damage plus fires (you can still repair that damage though) in 30 seconds. Your BB has 90-100k. Oh, and there's this thing called shooting into the smoke (and Smolensk's isn't particularly large)

 

 

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Vor 7 Minuten, Taliesn sagte:

 

I've played BBs quite a lot lately, mostly Georgia, LM Yamato and Kremlin. Not a chance in hell any of those guns are better at 15+ range, that's simply not true, even for Yamato's. 

 

And for every time a Smolensk has sunk me I've sunk three. You just have to remember that driving a BB doesn't mean you are immune to everything and staying 2+ minutes sailing in front of a Smolensk in open water will hurt. And yet a bit of maths will tell you that 1-2k damage every 4,5 seconds amounts to no more than 7-14k damage plus fires (you can still repair that damage though) in 30 seconds. Your BB has 90-100k. Oh, and there's this thing called shooting into the smoke (and Smolensk's isn't particularly large)

 

 

pushing into Smolensk is something you can do only later in match. Cause normal Smolensk players will just retreat and not wait till their smoke runs out, when BB is rushing them. And now you are overextended, taking fire from all directions, and you still have to deal with Smolensk, who smoked on another position.

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13 minutes ago, Taliesn said:

yet a bit of maths will tell you that 1-2k damage every 4,5 seconds amounts to no more than 7-14k damage plus fires (you can still repair that damage though) in 30 seconds.

 

Oh come on, this "you can repair all the fire damage" is, atleast by now, such a myth. Biisoni is right in saying, that these days, HE spam is the biggest problem for a BB on high tiers. You cant be aggressive as a BB AND control / repair the fire spam thats usualy thrown at you by all the great, rather new WG inventions. Not only talking about Smolensk, you can add Henri, Worcester, Harugumo, Conqueror and a few others to the list easily. And then we see more and more "classic" BBs resort to HE aswell, which sounds stupid but is often the right thing to do, since those extra fires will push your abiliies to control fires over the cliff.

 

And sure as hell you cant use a secondary build german BB effective these days with the HE meta around. Ive switched to tank/surv build in my Bismarck and since then its working fine.

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To me its about balance in the end. 

Aggressive playing BBs are punished heavily in current meta by various mechanics.

Secondary builds are punished in skill points they have to spend and camper and HE meta.

 

Choosing between aggressive brawler and a sniper style BB should both be doable, rewarding and fun. For years the sniper style has been taking permanent hold while brawler style is a very rare sight.

 

Yesterday I burned down 3 BBs in Kitakaze, 260k damage. Yeah it was fun for me but its still a very disgusting and the BBs most likely did not like it. They were mostly only facing me... 1 DD in a smoke.

They got probably 50 barrels against my 8 and only thing they could do is run away from my fire rainbow. This meta is just bad.

 

I do play secondary build in most of my BBs just because when u get a good game it sure is a ton more fun than sniping.

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42 minutes ago, Perekotypole said:

pushing into Smolensk is something you can do only later in match. Cause normal Smolensk players will just retreat and not wait till their smoke runs out, when BB is rushing them. And now you are overextended, taking fire from all directions, and you still have to deal with Smolensk, who smoked on another position.

 

There is playing aggresively and there is playing stupidly. That works for both BBs and Smolensks by the way.

 

There will be situations where a Smolensk will farm a BB because he is in smoke, he is not radared or torped into oblivion, someone is spotting for him, the BB is sailing leisurely in front of him, repairing the one single fire plus any number of variables you may want to stack in your favour. But as a BB there is usually nothing preventing you from NOT yoloing to death when confronted with these.

 

There will also be times when that Smolensk will be lit up inside his smoke and one citadel and a few pens/overpens will send him to the bottom pronto.

 

34 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

Oh come on, this "you can repair all the fire damage" is, atleast by now, such a myth. Biisoni is right in saying, that these days, HE spam is the biggest problem for a BB on high tiers. You cant be aggressive as a BB AND control / repair the fire spam thats usualy thrown at you by all the great, rather new WG inventions. Not only talking about Smolensk, you can add Henri, Worcester, Harugumo, Conqueror and a few others to the list easily. And then we see more and more "classic" BBs resort to HE aswell, which sounds stupid but is often the right thing to do, since those extra fires will push your abiliies to control fires over the cliff.

 

And sure as hell you cant use a secondary build german BB effective these days with the HE meta around. Ive switched to tank/surv build in my Bismarck and since then its working fine.

 

A BB potato is gonna potato either way, but if you manage your repair parties and damage cons on top of some concealment and island use it will take half the team 5+ minutes to bring you down at the very least. There is hardly that level of coordination in randoms anyway but it it were, that's a good trade off for your team.

 

Secondary build BBs have never been effective, HE meta notwithstanding. Should they be more effective? Hell yeah, but let's not pretend they were before.

 

Fun fact, I have all tier X BBs (silver) and my full secondaries GK is the second best in terms of winrate and third in PR. She might not be that bad...

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Vor 22 Stunden, Zemeritt sagte:

 

Around 17,1 km.

I suspect the shell pen the upper belt armour and then plunge onto the turtleback plates, pen them to then hit the citadel.

I experienced this too. Mostly between 15,5km and 17,5km (it varies with the ballistic of the BB you are shooting with). I am happily aiming for broadsides of KM BBs at those ranges. I thought its because of the angle of the turtle back and the steeper angle from bigger ranges that makes it possible to penetrate the sloped part. Above that it gets to steep and below that the turtleback works as intended.

Vor 19 Stunden, ForlornSailor sagte:

 

Buffing Sigma doesnt solve everything tho. Im going to go so far to say, that some players (with bad aim) can profit from bad dispersion formula / lower Sigma. I always like to refer to Lyon. Ship has bad Sigma on paper but the number of shellsin the air just makes up for it. Even worse: even dodging is impossible, because you cant get your ship out of the splash pattern. Recently I had this with Kiew, fighting a Lyon and a Bismarck. The Bismarck just scores way less hits because of better dispersion and the redicolous amount of shells the Lyon throws at you. This entire thing might more be a problem of powercreep then with the german BBs itself.

Thats why i hate fighting Bismarcks while kiting away with CL/CAs. You can wiggle perfectly but there is always this stray grenade that gives you full cit pen. Thats why i like to see sigma buffed and because it feels bad to see your good aim go anywhere. It would reward good aim. But maybe this would be to much. Idk.

I have come to terms with the fact that KM BBs are not the best dmg dealers. But they are effective if used right and without the build (sec) even WG promotes as "flavor". They just can't deal with every situation and who can.?

And as you mentioned Lyon... this thing is silly. Just have to look at my own stats to see there is something wrong.

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Skill reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeework when?

 

@Sunleader what you would think if weegee for whatever vodka-mind defying reason added in miss H44? She would have dem 482's doe.

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1 hour ago, Taliesn said:

 

I've played BBs quite a lot lately, mostly Georgia, LM Yamato and Kremlin. Not a chance in hell any of those guns are better at 15+ range, that's simply not true, even for Yamato's. 

 

And for every time a Smolensk has sunk me I've sunk three. You just have to remember that driving a BB doesn't mean you are immune to everything and staying 2+ minutes sailing in front of a Smolensk in open water will hurt. And yet a bit of maths will tell you that 1-2k damage every 4,5 seconds amounts to no more than 7-14k damage plus fires (you can still repair that damage though) in 30 seconds. Your BB has 90-100k. Oh, and there's this thing called shooting into the smoke (and Smolensk's isn't particularly large)

 

 

I dont know which game you play but my yamato can hit the cat on the bismarck camo, while my Kurfurst can miss the water if shooting at a fish. 

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29 minutes ago, kfa said:

I dont know which game you play but my yamato can hit the cat on the bismarck camo, while my Kurfurst can miss the water if shooting at a fish. 

 

WoWs?

 

1912e3d2680156c01fd5c5098040b4ae-full.jp

 

GK was my first tier X BB also.

 

26.81% accuracy with GK, 28.60% with Yamato. Not otherworldly but it works.

 

Edit: For someone who claims he can't hit sh$t with GK you have a 5% bettter winrate with the german BB compared to Yamato. Wtf mate :)?

Edit 2: Actually, your hit rate with Yamato is 28% and with GK is 29% :Smile_teethhappy:

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6 minutes ago, Taliesn said:

 

WoWs?

 

1912e3d2680156c01fd5c5098040b4ae-full.jp

 

GK was my first tier X BB also.

 

26.81% accuracy with GK, 28.60% with Yamato. Not otherworldly but it works.

 

Edit: For someone who claims he can't hit sh$t with GK you have a 5% bettter winrate with the german BB compared to Yamato. Wtf mate :)?

Edit 2: Actually, your hit rate with Yamato is 28% and with GK is 29% :Smile_teethhappy:

Yes cause a play my GK in hydro range of other ships, not very effective but fun 😁

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45 minutes ago, Taliesn said:

26.81% accuracy with GK, 28.60% with Yamato. Not otherworldly but it works.

 

Edit: For someone who claims he can't hit sh$t with GK you have a 5% bettter winrate with the german BB compared to Yamato. Wtf mate :)?

Edit 2: Actually, your hit rate with Yamato is 28% and with GK is 29% 

 

People often forget, that german BBs can operate closer without getting deleted so fast (they shatter more HE, they dont take citadels while broadsiding). Ofc they also get a little bit better hitrate because of that.

My german BBs also have quite decent hitrate, Gneisenau is overall the best IIRC. Bismarck is also quite high. GK is a bit lower than the hightier competition, but damage output is still there. If you get rid of the Cruisers, you can quite comfortably push in, because enemy BBs cant do much and against DDs you have Hydro.

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Personal, subjective opinion: 

Tier 3,4 German BBs are fine.

5 is fine too, but it was awesome before the CV rework. 

6 is good enough. 

7 was my all time favorite (maxed AA build) ship before the rework, now I don't play it anymore.

8 is fun.

9, 10 are not fun. I prefer to play Bismarck in tier 10 games instead. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, kfa said:

Yes cause a play my GK in hydro range of other ships, not very effective but fun 😁

 

1 hour ago, DFens_666 said:

 

People often forget, that german BBs can operate closer without getting deleted so fast (they shatter more HE, they dont take citadels while broadsiding). Ofc they also get a little bit better hitrate because of that.

My german BBs also have quite decent hitrate, Gneisenau is overall the best IIRC. Bismarck is also quite high. GK is a bit lower than the hightier competition, but damage output is still there. If you get rid of the Cruisers, you can quite comfortably push in, because enemy BBs cant do much and against DDs you have Hydro.

 

I guess the problem here is one of perspective, of players looking at german BBs as if they are or rather they should be a carbon copy of any other BB line when they are clearly not.

 

Yes, she needs to get closer. Yes, her survivability is lower. Yes, GK might not be the most accurate BB, even allowing for her shooting at closer ranges than a Yamato for example nor be a damage dealer (even with secondaries) compared again to a Yamato or a Kremlin. And yet that she still has a better winrate than those two might suggest she gets the job done anyway because she efficiently soaks damage that would otherwise be directed towards DDs or cruisers.

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Close range no longer viable, especially for GK, soon as a Smoly sees one, farmed with HE and good luck firing back and hitting her !

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6 hours ago, Mr_Wolfclaw said:

Close range no longer viable, especially for GK, soon as a Smoly sees one, farmed with HE and good luck firing back and hitting her !

Blind fire in smoke is a thing. And GK at least gets an hydro.

You'd be surprised at how many Smolensk I punished with a blindshot in their smoke with a République. And République only got 8 guns. The more you have, the better. No reason why GK can't get some citadel that way.

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Had a good game in the Smolensk today. I took many salvos from a  republique by turning fully broadside. In that position you fear only Conquerors and HE flinging battleships. Very silly.

Heavy cruisers are a big threat though, as they should be.

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On 10/26/2019 at 5:08 PM, ColonelPete said:

When you sort BB stats of the last two months by WR and give each ship for each rank a point (rank 1 gives 1 point, rank 6 gives 6 points), then the strongest line can get 1x8 (8) points and the worst line could get 6x8 (48) points.

And an average line should have 3.5x8 (28) points.

 

Done for all six silver tech trees and all eight Tiers, you get these results:

image.png.43dab81acd55e377eb23ba168d3428c9.png

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20191026/eu_week/average_ship.html

 

I do not think improving the KM line significantly is a good idea. Other lines need more help.

T10 is surprising - GK which you don't see in clan battles or anything near competitive is no3, while the Republique and Montana are no 5 and 6 respectively?

At T5, Bretagne being the worst is not suprising at all, possibly the worst BB of all.

 

On 10/26/2019 at 6:58 PM, NoobySkooby said:

Whats wrong with the PEF, if thats the one you mean?I was looking at a tier 6 BB for my alt and could not make my mind up between the Dunkurque  and the PEF?

 

PEF is a good ship. Fast, good AA, usable secondaries, little superstructure, guns are good enough too, armor is definitely decent when angled.

Yesterday I took mine for a spin, sank 4 ships, done 150k+ damage (high caliber + confederate), capped and whatnot - my karma increased by 3 after that match. :)

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19 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

 

People often forget, that german BBs can operate closer without getting deleted so fast (they shatter more HE, they dont take citadels while broadsiding). Ofc they also get a little bit better hitrate because of that.

My german BBs also have quite decent hitrate, Gneisenau is overall the best IIRC. Bismarck is also quite high. GK is a bit lower than the hightier competition, but damage output is still there. If you get rid of the Cruisers, you can quite comfortably push in, because enemy BBs cant do much and against DDs you have Hydro.

The FdG and GK are way too big with a lot of inertia to avoid torps. Sure, you can mitigate the damage, but that's not enough for pushing into DDs.

Bismarck is small and agile enough though.

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39 minutes ago, optimal_909 said:

T10 is surprising - GK which you don't see in clan battles or anything near competitive is no3, while the Republique and Montana are no 5 and 6 respectively?

At T5, Bretagne being the worst is not suprising at all, possibly the worst BB of all.

 

République is hard to play for the average player. It's not a very forgiving ship.

 

Add to that the fact the majority of bad/average players like to build it for secondaries which is EVEN LESS forgiving on a République (it requires absolutely perfect positioning, the kind that only deep purple unicum can take advantage of) than a survivability build and you get this WR.

 

I love my République, it's by far my favourite BB (though I can't wait for Bourgogne) but I can understand its low server statistics.

 

As for Montana... honestly it's a decent ship and quite tanky at that but it's still meh. Bad long range balistic means you have to be good at aiming (bad players aren't) and you have to anticipate your target trying to dodge, and its penetration power is very low for a tier 10.

I lost count of the number of times I bounced on a slightly angled battleship where the same salvo would have given me around 20k damage with a République or a Yamato.

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39 minutes ago, optimal_909 said:

T10 is surprising - GK which you don't see in clan battles or anything near competitive is no3, while the Republique and Montana are no 5 and 6 respectively? 

 

You shouldnt compare Randoms and CBs. While ships should be balanced for both, its quite a hard task with WG throwing Gimmicks left and right. Like Henri, which became basicly OP in CBs for the last few seasons when WG decided to give french Cruisers the MBRB.

 

41 minutes ago, optimal_909 said:

The FdG and GK are way too big with a lot of inertia to avoid torps. Sure, you can mitigate the damage, but that's not enough for pushing into DDs.

shot-19_08.07_18_12.36-0650.thumb.jpg.ccc8ff9867f6538d194821da47928a26.jpg

 

Had to push a Benham away, because our DD decided to not support me, because apparently im a selfish bastard. Taking Torps bow on doesnt really hurt that much.

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57 minutes ago, optimal_909 said:

T10 is surprising - GK which you don't see in clan battles or anything near competitive is no3, while the Republique and Montana are no 5 and 6 respectively?

From March to the beginning of October GK was even in front of Yamato and ranked 1st and later 2nd, after the introduction of the RU BB.

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Vor 37 Minuten, optimal_909 sagte:

The FdG and GK are way too big with a lot of inertia to avoid torps. Sure, you can mitigate the damage, but that's not enough for pushing into DDs.

Bismarck is small and agile enough though.

Pushing into DDs is never a good idea unless you can be sure that you can get him cornered before his Torps are reloaded ....

 

Yesterday i had a game were i experienced strength and weakness of the FdG in a very surprising game. It was on 2 Brothers. Long story short me and a team mate got cornered while retreating cause stronger flank pushed to slowly.

There was one situation where (teammate died) i had to face Sinop, Maass, Gneise, Yorck and a Mushi 10km away. I managed to kill Sinop (50k salvo on 3km :) Gneise and Yorck. They took me down to 7k but because a storm came i could heal back to 50% while closing distance to Mushi. And then i tried to hit weakspot of the aft citadelle for nearly 2min while 3km away...couldn't take away the last 10k health of the Mushi before the fun police killed me :( The dispersion was so good and so abysmal in this match that it was a good example for her biggest weakpoint ..Reliability. 

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9 hours ago, optimal_909 said:

T10 is surprising - GK which you don't see in clan battles or anything near competitive is no3, while the Republique and Montana are no 5 and 6 respectively?

At T5, Bretagne being the worst is not suprising at all, possibly the worst BB of all.

 

 

PEF is a good ship. Fast, good AA, usable secondaries, little superstructure, guns are good enough too, armor is definitely decent when angled.

Yesterday I took mine for a spin, sank 4 ships, done 150k+ damage (high caliber + confederate), capped and whatnot - my karma increased by 3 after that match. :)

Is it the best T 6 BB, although am I right in thinking it is a Battlecruiser?

 

Was thinking of this for my alt account where my stats are somewhat better than this one, for stats along that is the account I never division with either, and the whole alt thing came about through a really obscure reason,still nice to sail under the radar from time to time:Smile_veryhappy:

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8 hours ago, ShinGetsu said:

République is hard to play for the average player. It's not a very forgiving ship.

 

Add to that the fact the majority of bad/average players like to build it for secondaries which is EVEN LESS forgiving on a République (it requires absolutely perfect positioning, the kind that only deep purple unicum can take advantage of) than a survivability build and you get this WR.

 

I love my République, it's by far my favourite BB (though I can't wait for Bourgogne) but I can understand its low server statistics.

 

As for Montana... honestly it's a decent ship and quite tanky at that but it's still meh. Bad long range balistic means you have to be good at aiming (bad players aren't) and you have to anticipate your target trying to dodge, and its penetration power is very low for a tier 10.

I lost count of the number of times I bounced on a slightly angled battleship where the same salvo would have given me around 20k damage with a République or a Yamato.

I like my Republique, and yes mine is secondary build, well as King of the potatoes,gotta do it the hard way right?:Smile_veryhappy:

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