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umpaumpaX

German battleships state

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Hi Guys,

I would like to say some thing that are not often mentioned on forums.

We known where they are now (forums are full of opinion). But the issue make them "good" is nut very hard to cracks.

There are few reasons.

 

Secondary - opposite to other BBs for this ships damage dealt by them is important part of all damage. But buffing them in my opinion isnt good idea.

Increasing range i.e 500m - for the high tiers gemes (where german BBs have bigest problem) it would be unnoticeable. But for lower tiers (due to smaller maps and shorter max firing range of these ships) it could be disaster.

The same story with Increasing damage. Yours theoretical damage output is 1000. Increasing it by 10% give us 1100. And now take away this additional 100HP form high tier ship with 2500 HP (no problem) but for low tier ship with 250 HP..... yea.

 

Scaling up. Due to "specifics" of this line they reacts diferently from all other BBs linea for some factors.

- we know how hard time has Bismarck against tier 10 and how beast she is for tier 6 ships.

- solo GK and GK in division with DD and radar cruiser - she becomes almost unstoppable kiling machine.

For all BBs such factor made some deviation from trend. For german BBs its min/max situations.

 

And one important thing (if not the most important). Players skills.

Lets say it loud - this ship have the higest entry skills level of all BBs . And the ships in tree dont teach how to play them good or playesr refuse to learn. Judge for yourself :).

First 3 (nassau, kaiser and konig) are a little braindead. Good armor and small maps = short engagement range = very occasional plunging cits and german dispersion dont bother to much.

Than come bayern on tier 6 and the situation change by 180 degree. You eat plunging cits, shell starts to live its own life. You have to play  aggressively (but good not yolo) and close to enemy to take advantage of you armor

and reduce dispersion.

Tier 7 Gneis is a judgment day. In short - you know how to utilise all german ships advantages (very few players) and this ships are at least competitive or you dont (most of the players, especialy those habited to "normal" BBs)

and we have - wtf is this ship?!

Going up with tiers is only worst.

 

Next thing with buffing KM BBs is conected with all mentioned above. Smalll buff gives almost nothig to avarage playes but can be easily multiplicated or even abuse by good KM BBs players.

I can bet that when we compare results of average player to results of best 10% players the difference between them will be much higher for KM BBs then for the other lines.

 

I personally cant play them. So I stopped play them because it does not make fun to me or other words these few funy games is not worthy frustration from the rest of games.

 

Summarising - in my opinion KM BBs need some love but I dont know how to do it without further disturbing of balance which alter some mechanics change, CV rework, introducing RU BBs and some particular

ships is in not too good shape nowadays.

   
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After a long time i pulled out my Tirpitz. Build is secondarie/stealth. 11.3km range of secondaries and 12.9 detection. 

 

And it works and is fun. And secondaries + fires from them netted me around 35-40k dmg per game which is ok for 2 captain skills and module. 20191102_173344.thumb.jpg.4d5fe369075d5b4efd68e5149646c246.jpg

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On ‎11‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 4:37 PM, veslingr said:

After a long time i pulled out my Tirpitz. Build is secondarie/stealth. 11.3km range of secondaries and 12.9 detection. 

 

And it works and is fun. And secondaries + fires from them netted me around 35-40k dmg per game which is ok for 2 captain skills and module. 20191102_173344.thumb.jpg.4d5fe369075d5b4efd68e5149646c246.jpg

What build are you running?

 

I to have difficulty playing the germans… but I reckon it's worth persevering with.

Also how do you look at your stats like that? 

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On ‎10‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 7:55 PM, umpaumpaX said:

Hi Guys,

I would like to say some thing that are not often mentioned on forums.

We known where they are now (forums are full of opinion). But the issue make them "good" is nut very hard to cracks.

There are few reasons.

 

Secondary - opposite to other BBs for this ships damage dealt by them is important part of all damage. But buffing them in my opinion isnt good idea.

Increasing range i.e 500m - for the high tiers gemes (where german BBs have bigest problem) it would be unnoticeable. But for lower tiers (due to smaller maps and shorter max firing range of these ships) it could be disaster.

The same story with Increasing damage. Yours theoretical damage output is 1000. Increasing it by 10% give us 1100. And now take away this additional 100HP form high tier ship with 2500 HP (no problem) but for low tier ship with 250 HP..... yea.

 

Scaling up. Due to "specifics" of this line they reacts diferently from all other BBs linea for some factors.

- we know how hard time has Bismarck against tier 10 and how beast she is for tier 6 ships.

- solo GK and GK in division with DD and radar cruiser - she becomes almost unstoppable kiling machine.

For all BBs such factor made some deviation from trend. For german BBs its min/max situations.

 

And one important thing (if not the most important). Players skills.

Lets say it loud - this ship have the higest entry skills level of all BBs . And the ships in tree dont teach how to play them good or playesr refuse to learn. Judge for yourself :).

First 3 (nassau, kaiser and konig) are a little braindead. Good armor and small maps = short engagement range = very occasional plunging cits and german dispersion dont bother to much.

Than come bayern on tier 6 and the situation change by 180 degree. You eat plunging cits, shell starts to live its own life. You have to play  aggressively (but good not yolo) and close to enemy to take advantage of you armor

and reduce dispersion.

Tier 7 Gneis is a judgment day. In short - you know how to utilise all german ships advantages (very few players) and this ships are at least competitive or you dont (most of the players, especialy those habited to "normal" BBs)

and we have - wtf is this ship?!

Going up with tiers is only worst.

 

Next thing with buffing KM BBs is conected with all mentioned above. Smalll buff gives almost nothig to avarage playes but can be easily multiplicated or even abuse by good KM BBs players.

I can bet that when we compare results of average player to results of best 10% players the difference between them will be much higher for KM BBs then for the other lines.

 

I personally cant play them. So I stopped play them because it does not make fun to me or other words these few funy games is not worthy frustration from the rest of games.

 

Summarising - in my opinion KM BBs need some love but I dont know how to do it without further disturbing of balance which alter some mechanics change, CV rework, introducing RU BBs and some particular

ships is in not too good shape nowadays.

   

I would say that Scharnhorst and Gneisenau do need an accuracy buff, on the basis that Scharnhorst even though having a fast reload, suffers from the fact that getting a very hits from the same salvo that do a decent damage is quite rare, allowing the target to get away, and Gneisenau for having so few guns and the fact you have things like the Sinop to contend with now, so they really do need a helping hand dealing with stuff like that because they are very likely to get blapped before they're in range to do a meaningful amount of damage.

as for the rest, its hard to say but people still seem to enjoy playing them...except for the Fredrick the Great (I used English spelling because it was easier for me)

that one seems to be everyone's least favourite,, I managed to citadel one at range in my Alsace twice in 2 salvos....it didn't last very long after that.

maybe a concealment buff might work?

Edited by JarrusJenkins

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12 hours ago, JarrusJenkins said:

and Gneisenau for having so few guns and the fact you have things like the Sinop to contend with now, so they really do need a helping hand dealing with stuff like that because they are very likely to get blapped before they're in range to do a meaningful amount of damage.

If you get blapped in Gneisenau, it better be by an Enterprise, otherwise, you got no excuse. The Gneisenau for T7 has excellent speed, excellent armour, excellent secondaries and torpedoes. Having only 6 guns that are not very accurate (but are overmatching, fast turning and fast reloading) is basically a balancing factor what is otherwise one of the best T7 BB hulls. People complain about Sinop being OP because it is armoured and accurate, but Gneisenau is armoured to a similar degree and a far better brawler and will usually beat any other T7 BB in a 1v1.

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On 11/8/2019 at 1:14 PM, Sleepy_Bunny said:

If you get blapped in Gneisenau, it better be by a CV.

fitfy

I largely agree with you that the Gnei is a good ship but Sinop undeniably has more fire- and staying power

and is an excellent brawler second only to the Gnei and Scharn at her tier. (i.e. she's just that bit OP in my eyes)

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18 hours ago, rnat said:

tfify

I largely agree with you that the Gnei is a good ship but Sinop undeniably has more fire- and staying power

and is an excellent brawler second only to the Gnei and Scharn at her tier. (i.e. she's just that bit OP in my eyes)

They are different in that the Gneisenau sacrifices some in both aspects to gain the torps and almost cit immunity. And it's really what makes the Gneisenau a different kind of beast. Gneisenau isn't OP (though top tier absolutely unfair to T5s and T6s like any T7 really), but its high resilience and torps mean that even when bottom tier, a well-played Gneisenau is still a major threat, even to stuff like Musashi when it gets to close range. Sinop meanwhile is good at close range, but can get memed on if ever pitted against a ship that can rush its side. Also, it should be kept in mind, that Sinop only has 25 mm deck almost everywhere and will eat HE pens or overmatches from shells that hit the deck. Gneisenau is 50 mm there and apart from superstructure (which runs out of hp eventually), you cannot easily pen it with HE. And sure, everyone likes to complain about the Germans burning so well, but apart from being not true, most ignore that shooting Germans with 32 mm HE pen is some of the most unrewarding experiences ever, compared to something where you can pen the deck.

 

Lastly, Sinop turret traverse is crap and can be abused at short range.

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What exactly is the value of a ship that can't use it torps, because enemys meta behind islands or bowon-meta at 15km+ range? (+ that 6km torps are a joke)

What exactly is the point of secondarys if enemys meta behind islands or bowon-meta at 15km+ range?

What exactly is the point of turtleback if any other BBs just yolo pens you for 10k+ normal pen damage either way or getting melted by said Island meta boats?

 

Truth is and still was, german ships are at best mediocore, over time they got powercreeped hard and the soviet BBs were the last nail in the coffin.

To get them to work, you need to get close and lose at worst 50%+ HP ,  so if one is not supposed to go suicidal he has to stay away and thus, cant do anything productive. Not counting for enemy potatoes that actually go easy target or are nice enough to let you get close, as that is situational.

Meanwhile soviet boats bounce ridicolous stuff, hit ridicolously on range, yolo pen you , are hard to put on fire...etc.

 

But all this is simply "not right" just because people post unicum battle reports, you know...that one in a 20 were RNG actuallly lets you do stuff.

Time and time again we saw how they handled german units...

German DDs? After release when all those CC had to put up "I'm sorry" vids so people dont spent free Exp on them? Because they got nerfed in between beeing taken away from CC and public release?

Graf Zeppelin fail, when they said "git gud" in it, until some of the best CV players said even they cant make that thing work?

PEF that was "nice" and "something else for once"..arguably only needed little bit less accurarity to be ok....nerfed to "meh"

German cruiser that needed no buff ....then got "buffed" so slightly just so someone could say "hey we buffed them"

What about the siegfried that in beta got a heal taken away becuz...reasons...while nooble...I mean smolensk and other prems get what amout of consumables?

 

Making german BBs "brawlers" was already a potatoe idea, seeing the muzzle velocity of the AP rounds, what could go wrong when a high velocity round cant hint on range, and retains ALOT of energy when it hits on close range, que em overpens!

 

Jeah....nothing wrong with German Battleships at all, working as intended when a full broadside volley at a broadsided enemy at 8km goes 50% misses and of those rounds "hitting" , 50% overpens ,1 bounce and 1 normal pen for 2k damage..while a cruiser plastered you with 4k HE volleys...nothing wrong at all.

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1 hour ago, Krieger00 said:

Making german BBs "brawlers" was already a potatoe idea, seeing the muzzle velocity of the AP rounds, what could go wrong when a high velocity round cant hint on range, and retains ALOT of energy when it hits on close range, que em overpens!

Which is why Soviet BBs with bigger guns and high shell speed and worse dispersion at range cannot hit things or just overpen? Oh wait, they don't. And neither do Germans. Heck, the Bismarck still has less pen than most other T8s and less shell speed than a good few too.

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On ‎11‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 12:14 PM, Sleepy_Bunny said:

If you get blapped in Gneisenau, it better be by an Enterprise, otherwise, you got no excuse. The Gneisenau for T7 has excellent speed, excellent armour, excellent secondaries and torpedoes. Having only 6 guns that are not very accurate (but are overmatching, fast turning and fast reloading) is basically a balancing factor what is otherwise one of the best T7 BB hulls. People complain about Sinop being OP because it is armoured and accurate, but Gneisenau is armoured to a similar degree and a far better brawler and will usually beat any other T7 BB in a 1v1.

I never really considered that.

Mind you, in this current meta, I personally find it very difficult to move in close to make effective use of the current crop of brawling type battleships. do you have any advise?

 

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17 hours ago, Krieger00 said:

What exactly is the value of a ship that can't use it torps, because enemys meta behind islands or bowon-meta at 15km+ range? (+ that 6km torps are a joke)

What exactly is the point of secondarys if enemys meta behind islands or bowon-meta at 15km+ range?

What exactly is the point of turtleback if any other BBs just yolo pens you for 10k+ normal pen damage either way or getting melted by said Island meta boats?

  1. The torps are a little help for the endgame of the match, but you should decide the match before you need them.
  2. Secondaries were always a gimmick. They are fun, but not a real strength
  3. That you can turn with better chance of survival, otherwise you should not show broadside anyway. And if you get melted, you are in the wrong position.
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2 minutes ago, JarrusJenkins said:

I never really considered that.

Mind you, in this current meta, I personally find it very difficult to move in close to make effective use of the current crop of brawling type battleships. do you have any advise?

 

Don't expect the guns to be reliable, keep an eye out for what's happening and learn how to use the armour of your ship effectively. If you go into fights where you know what awaits you and that you can take that risk, with a plan that goes beyond "I'll blap it with the main battery guns" and with a proper exit strategy, much can be done. The guns aren't many and not very accurate, but they still have a punch when they land and in a brawl, you can outtrade most enemies just because you can tank and close up you have torps and secondaries. Also, against ships with torps, don't forget, Gneisenau can not just push, you can also kite. secondaries and torps don't just fire forward and enemies don't have to be within 6 km to eat torps they steam into. You'd be surprised how many people never see those torps coming because they think at 7-8 km, they are out of torp range. Just keep in mind, your stern can be overmatched more easily.

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1 hour ago, ColonelPete said:
  1. The torps are a little help for the endgame of the match, but you should decide the match before you need them.
  2. Secondaries were always a gimmick. They are fun, but not a real strength
  3. That you can turn with better chance of survival, otherwise you should not show broadside anyway. And if you get melted, you are in the wrong position.

 

So you basically agree with point 1 and 2 as none of those should be counted as plus points for german BBs , as those are highly situational, and the higher the tier, the less the actual probability of using them.

 

So german mid-hightier BBs have what? A turtleback that protects them from getting citadelled...and (if I remember corretly) 1/4 HE pen on guns.

The rest are useless gimmicks (most of time) and mediocore stats.

Would it rly be so hard to slightly increase the accuracy...or insted just the angles, so that when one shoot a slight angled CL it wont end in 90% bounces? To get some , consistency when playing them?

When I play US or IJN BBs, and shoot a CL at 11km...I know at least something "meaningful " is going to happen, not just 1 overpen for 1050 damage.

 

When I saw the soviet BB "thingy" of "better accuracy" on closer targets" , my first thought was "and germans? what about them?" because obviously someone at WG thought that a second BB line that cant hit stuff on any range on average is what the game doesn't need.

 

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2 hours ago, Sleepy_Bunny said:

Don't expect the guns to be reliable, keep an eye out for what's happening and learn how to use the armour of your ship effectively. If you go into fights where you know what awaits you and that you can take that risk, with a plan that goes beyond "I'll blap it with the main battery guns" and with a proper exit strategy, much can be done. The guns aren't many and not very accurate, but they still have a punch when they land and in a brawl, you can outtrade most enemies just because you can tank and close up you have torps and secondaries. Also, against ships with torps, don't forget, Gneisenau can not just push, you can also kite. secondaries and torps don't just fire forward and enemies don't have to be within 6 km to eat torps they steam into. You'd be surprised how many people never see those torps coming because they think at 7-8 km, they are out of torp range. Just keep in mind, your stern can be overmatched more easily.

I guess you have to bate the shots into the angled belt, something which I do in the Scharnhorst.

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1 minute ago, Krieger00 said:

 

So you basically agree with point 1 and 2 as none of those should be counted as plus points for german BBs , as those are highly situational, and the higher the tier, the less the actual probability of using them.

 

So german mid-hightier BBs have what? A turtleback that protects them from getting citadelled...and (if I remember corretly) 1/4 HE pen on guns.

The rest are useless gimmicks (most of time) and mediocore stats.

Would it rly be so hard to slightly increase the accuracy...or insted just the angles, so that when one shoot a slight angled CL it wont end in 90% bounces? To get some , consistency when playing them?

When I play US or IJN BBs, and shoot a CL at 11km...I know at least something "meaningful " is going to happen, not just 1 overpen for 1050 damage.

 

When I saw the soviet BB "thingy" of "better accuracy" on closer targets , my first thought was "and germans? what about them?" because obviously someone at WG thought that a second BB line that cant hit stuff on any range on average is what the game dont need.

 

They are plus points, just small ones.

And you should not forget the hydro.

And no, their stats are not mediocre when you are interested in winning. If you want to blow stuff up, there are better lines for that.

Small accuracy improvements would be ok, but it depends on the ship. For the whole line it would be too much. And I am quite sure that other ships are in a more dire need of help.

When you get overpens with german BB, it means they have too much pen for that situation, reducing it is a bad idea. I am pretty sure other BB would overpen too.

 

WG wanted to make a second close combat BB line, but make it different from the german BB. WG is chained to belief that every line needs new mechanics or gimmicks and that new game models and the inherent design philosophies of the ships are not enough for the players.

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1 hour ago, ColonelPete said:

They are plus points, just small ones.

And you should not forget the hydro.

And no, their stats are not mediocre when you are interested in winning. If you want to blow stuff up, there are better lines for that.

Small accuracy improvements would be ok, but it depends on the ship. For the whole line it would be too much. And I am quite sure that other ships are in a more dire need of help.

When you get overpens with german BB, it means they have too much pen for that situation, reducing it is a bad idea. I am pretty sure other BB would overpen too.

 

WG wanted to make a second close combat BB line, but make it different from the german BB. WG is chained to belief that every line needs new mechanics or gimmicks and that new game models and the inherent design philosophies of the ships are not enough for the players.

Well yes, I dont want OP boats, just something...consistend that doesn't require as much praying to RNG.

Also about overpens, I'm aware that german AP usually (not always of course) has higher muzzle velocity, thats what I meant...targets need to be close to "hit"..yet this also means more energy retained in the shell, so higher chance of overpen.

A US..or IJN AP round (and others? dont ahve all data up my head) , wich is roughly ( ~ ) , up to 100m/s slower has thus a higher chance of fusing, and detonating within the target. Shooting an angled target can help, them extra armor thickness due to the angle can make the difference...if it wasnt for german bad angles and thus, bounces.

Just a little bit more, but meh...releasing high tier premiums is more importand I guess ^^

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20 hours ago, Krieger00 said:

 

A US..or IJN AP round (and others? dont ahve all data up my head) , wich is roughly ( ~ ) , up to 100m/s slower has thus a higher chance of fusing, and detonating within the target. Shooting an angled target can help, them extra armor thickness due to the angle can make the difference...if it wasnt for german bad angles and thus, bounces.

 

Tier 8 IJN 410mm AP from Amagi has muzzle velocity of 806m/s. Tier 8 German 380mm AP from Bismarck has muzzle velocity of 820m/s. Velocity difference at 10 km is 45m/s. Not a lot of difference there. Also German BB AP does not suffer from "bad angles" it has the same normal ricochet values as IJN AP for example. German cruiser AP has  "bad angles".

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German battleships are all subpar compared with their peers from the other navies! Even Nassau was nerfed heavily on rate of fire and Heal Party charges!

Only Bismarck and Tirpitz are somewhat competitive on their tier, all others are mediocre to plain bad!

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