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Thejagdpanther

Type F3

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6 minutes ago, Thejagdpanther said:

... buff to 9,5 km?

Pretty please? :cap_yes:

Hmm, but why?

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For a valid choice and .. why not? :cap_cool:^^
Torpboats are already pretty pointless compared to gunboats, so give to shima another good choice (that is not suicidal) could give some fresh air to the ship.

So... you arrive here and the build is pretty much with torp acceleration that give to Type93 mod. 3 a confortable gameplay of 9,6km 72knot.
End.
Any other choice is pointless:

16km torps are still so slow and easily spottable that are nearly useless;

TypeF3 are pratically a suicide (6,4km 81knot - 5,6 km camo) considering the sad reality of monotier games, the huge number of radars/gunboats and of course the CV.

So, if you give the TypeF3 a 9,5km (or 9km) buff you can still use the torp accel skill and have 2 option of gameplay: confy with Type93 mod. 3 and aggressive with TypeF3, but not suicidal.
With the skill they become 7,6 km (7,2 km) at 81knot.

Im just saying... maybe any other buff is more than welcome.

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Or just run the 12 km torps without torp accel and make a different build? The 12 km are not great in terms of concealment but the damage is great and the reload is not so bad for 15 torps.

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1 hour ago, ollonborre said:

Or just run the 12 km torps without torp accel and make a different build? The 12 km are not great in terms of concealment but the damage is great and the reload is not so bad for 15 torps.


Try the torpboats and you will know what Im talking about :Smile_great:

The problem is that throw torps at more than 10km and they barely land on anything. They are so easy avoidable by BB at those distance and even more easy by cruisers (under 10km).

But beyond this problem, what I'd like to have is a double choice. Since this ship is good ONLY to launch torpedoes ... at least it could has a decent choice of gameplay without sacrificing the only thing it can do. So ... not using torpedo acceleration is pure suicide from the point of view of this ship's gameplay.

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1 hour ago, Thejagdpanther said:


Try the torpboats and you will know what Im talking about :Smile_great:

I have some experience in torpboats and quite a lot of experience with the 12 km torps, and I can't quite find the justification both in practice and theory for torp acceleration on the 12 km torps as I feel there are more use for 2 points.

 

As for the F3, well I don't know. Feels like they were buried a long time ago and with the CV rework a 1 km range increse might not be enough.

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1 hour ago, ollonborre said:

I have some experience in torpboats and quite a lot of experience with the 12 km torps, and I can't quite find the justification both in practice and theory for torp acceleration on the 12 km torps as I feel there are more use for 2 points.

 

As for the F3, well I don't know. Feels like they were buried a long time ago and with the CV rework a 1 km range increse might not be enough.

 

The justification is that 67knt torps launched at 10+km are the most easily avoidable dmg dealer of the game.
Raising the speed make them a little more hard to evade also by faster ships.

For the F3 is as above. Give more choice to an already restricted gameplay.
Launch 81knt torps at 7,6 instead of 6,4 is "another world" :Smile_great:

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I never understood why Wargaming made the IJN oxygen torps work completely opposite to how they worked IRL.

The IJN oxygen torps should have ranges between 12-40 km, 500 meter detection range but 55-45 kts speed depending on torp range and tier.

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Mmh... don't know. The reduced speed would still be a problem despite the almost invisibility. It is already extremely easy to dodge the 72knots with a minimum of map awarness. As soon as you have the doubt of being targeted by a DD, a turn of the rudder and everything becomes useless with 55 knots of torpedo.

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35 minutes ago, Thejagdpanther said:

Mmh... don't know. The reduced speed would still be a problem despite the almost invisibility. It is already extremely easy to dodge the 72knots with a minimum of map awarness. As soon as you have the doubt of being targeted by a DD, a turn of the rudder and everything becomes useless with 55 knots of torpedo.

That could be rebalanced by changes in rudder shift time and/or turning radius. Also with a detection range of 500 meters it would be too late to react anyway so the only real counter meassure would be to do as you say and sail defensively by frequent changes in course and speed.

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9 minutes ago, G01ngToxicCommand0 said:

That could be rebalanced by changes in rudder shift time and/or turning radius. Also with a detection range of 500 meters it would be too late to react anyway so the only real counter meassure would be to do as you say and sail defensively by frequent changes in course and speed.

But you can't change the whole game for one ship ^^.
Also some ships have already tragic rudders shift times :Smile_sad:

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5 minutes ago, Thejagdpanther said:

But you can't change the whole game for one ship ^^.
Also some ships have already tragic rudders shift times :Smile_sad:

That is only an issue due to the small scale of the maps and the large amount of islands.

The game really needs a major overhaul with regards to game mechanics, maps and game modes IMHO.

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On 10/23/2019 at 8:54 AM, Thejagdpanther said:

So ... not using torpedo acceleration is pure suicide from the point of view of this ship's gameplay.

I disagree. I'm not using torp acc. 12 km torps are good enough. 8 km are fine too, but a bit less versatile imo.

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On 10/23/2019 at 12:13 PM, Thejagdpanther said:

The justification is that 67knt torps launched at 10+km are the most easily avoidable dmg dealer of the game.
Raising the speed make them a little more hard to evade also by faster ships.

Giving up the range is not worth it in my experience.

This is especially true for the Harugumo and other gunboats, since they care more about burning enemy damage control than getting tons of torpedo hits, and the extra range of the 12 km torps makes that significantly more likely.

If you can close to 6 km without getting murdered by enemy CV, DDs and radars, then 8 km torps may give a slight advantage. However, those situations are quite rare in random games where CVs are allowed.

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On 10/27/2019 at 12:08 AM, GulvkluderGuld said:

Giving up the range is not worth it in my experience.

 

But (in my experience ^^ ) landing 4+ torps at 11/12km is also a rare situation like the one you wrote about the 8km torps.

WIth the CWars I reskilled my shima without the torp accelleration and I havent a good feedback either.
The problem with shima and pure torpboats is that they rely on only on torps, and those torps must be deadly like fapping in a smoke with an harugumo.
They dont have idro, heal or strong hull... just torps (as said the most easily avoidable dmg dealer of the game) and camo (the second most nullified mechanic of the game - cause of the big problem of radars and little by idro).

The unique upgrade of the shima could have come in handy, but it is totally useless if they don't buff the rotation of the tubes at least at -60%

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TA on 12 km torps reduces reaction time by a whopping 0.6 seconds, from 9.4s to 8.8s. Spending two points on this and not on better skills is just a waste. the greatest advantage is dropping time to target, but frankly, that's only significant at long ranges, where the main value lies in creating a torp wall for area denial, torping choke points and camping spots.

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4 hours ago, Thejagdpanther said:

But (in my experience ^^ ) landing 4+ torps at 11/12km is also a rare situation like the one you wrote about the 8km torps.

 

Oh I completely agree. Hitting 4+ torps only works against newbies and bad players as you so rightly point out :cap_book:

 

My argument is that F3s and 12km torpedoes are used for different purposes, and that the 12 km torpedoes can do the F3s job, but not the other way around (they lack range for area denial, torping choke points and camping spots)

The only way F3s can do the 12 km job is either 1) if shima is allowed to flank by enemy DDs and radars or 2) if shima spots and wears down / kills the opposing DD, thus opening the door for those close torpedo passes we discussed.

Note that option 1 depends on enemy mistakes and also, a CV can completely shut both playstyles down (most random battle CVs are too bad though).

 

What is left is taking advantage of the superior concealment of the shimakaze to spot the enemy DDs for your team to kill, denying spotting to the enemy team.

This is a very big deal and how you win games in a shima, and it requires no torpedo hits at all.

A well-played shima can and will kill even a harugumo over maybe half a game, but it requires a great deal of skill and patience as well as a team capable of staying alive during that time.

 

In the end Shima does work in competitive, but other boats arguably bring better utility and safety (Daring, Gearing, Grozovoi)

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oh thanks :Smile_great:

but for the topic... F3 need a speed and/or range boost (for make them a more usefull and pratical choice)?

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Not sure what you thank me for (using concealment is hard!)

 

And no, F3 dont need anything, that would make the other torpedo options redundant.

As for torpedoes, they have been repeatedly nerfed (latest: flooding nerf thanks to CVs) and any buffs should be towards increasing torpedo effectiveness in general.

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6 minutes ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

Not sure what you thank me for (using concealment is hard!)

 

for polite and usefull infos/reply... im not a good player, any piece of imput that can I assimilate is welcome
:cap_book:

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42 minutes ago, Thejagdpanther said:

for polite and usefull infos/reply... im not a good player, any piece of imput that can I assimilate is welcome
:cap_book:

You might want to look at some CC videos of shimas then. I know for a fact Flamu did one (youtube) on the shima and RPF torps although it is probably a year old by now.

If you can stand the guy, he is quite good at explaining his decision making.

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