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Thracen

Have new T9 super cruisers put the old ones out to pasture?

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So I'm grinding the Roon at the moment and I'm finding it a real challenge. Part of it is that the gun angles are terrible and the rear turret bias really makes it difficult to play forward and get into a good position. (Having to turn to get 2/3s of your firepower online is a real pain!)

 

Anywho I think part of the problem is the matchmaker putting me up against Krons and Alaska's and Azumas. All of which seem to have better stats nearly all round than the dear old Roon. The biggest issue I have being the range of these cruisers. By the time I can land my very low alpha HE on any one of these ships they are hitting back so much harder I have pretty much lost already. Closing to use the better AP isn't much of a proposition either. 

 

So TLDR: Have these big T9 cruiser/battleships put the olderschool T9s down into tier 8.5 or am I wrong? In which case, help me out with Roon tips! :D

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The Tier IX silver cruiser are still valid, but you are right that the new supercruiser are often slightly stronger.

Their advantage in tanking and AP power is partly compensated by their lack of DPM.

 

When you sail Roon, make sure you are not spotted too early, do not get targeted by too many enemies and focus on DD and broadside cruisers.

You can win a DPM battle vs suprercruisers when you kite away.

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I dont know if they made the others worse, atleast if i look at my own performance, it doesnt seem so. The problem ofc is, if one team gets "standard" T9 CAs, and the others get Krons/Alaska who are MUCH tankier than any other. A Kronshtadt will tank for its team, while a Seattle sits behind an island. And Kronshtadt even has the Alpha compared to Seattle.

 

That being said: It should be possible to get decent results even with the older Cruisers. CAs just are in a bad spot in general, because CLs are quite strong, but not vulnerable enough against CAs. But the difference from CA -> BC is not the same really, especially the difference in reload is not big enough.

F.e. ive been playing Buffalo recently, and it feels extremely strong. The problem with BCs is their low HE DPM. If they get broadsides, they can farm lots of damage, but they struggle against angled targets. CAs are better in that regard, even if their HE DPM is not that great either, atleast compared to CLs.

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1 minute ago, ColonelPete said:

The Tier IX silver cruiser are still valid, but you are right that the new supercruiser are often slightly stronger.

Their advantage in tanking and AP power is partly compensated by their lack of DPM.

 

When you sail Roon, make sure you are not spotted too early, do not get targeted by too many enemies and focus on DD and broadside cruisers.

You can win a DPM battle vs suprercruisers when you kite away.

What he said. The DPM is much lower, bigger guns but about twice as slow to recharge. They also are more tanky, but still very weak by the sides, and have similar spotting as battleships. It's a tradeoff.

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Roon in particular should be able to stand up to them pretty well - HE pen, good at kiting/angling, boatload of HP, decent armour and good citadel... meanwhile, what's a Buffalo supposed to do (unless it's lucky enough to get the flank)? Can't even claim its now niche because Alaska has the exact same radar...

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17 minutes ago, Thracen said:

So TLDR: Have these big T9 cruiser/battleships put the olderschool T9s down into tier 8.5 or am I wrong? In which case, help me out with Roon tips! :D

No, not really.

 

I would say that CA and CB is surprisingly ( for WG) well balanced to eatch other. Mutch more so than CL to CA.

 

Alaska, having US penetration angles, is hardest nut do krack. But overally, CA can fight CB very well. This is also evident in Ranked for example, where normal CA is mutch easier do play.

 

 

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The battlecruisers have very poor concealement though, which should not be underestimated in how it affects the playstyle of the ships. The Roon in particular is very good at closing the distance undetected and then kiting away with its back guns constantly firing. While kiting away it can angle very well and thus soak up a lot of 'potential' punishment. 

 

In comparison with the Buffalo the concealement especially hurts, the Buffalo can get into radar range very easily when you know a DD is lurking around. The Alaska has a much bigger gap to close and the DD can then take advantage of this and keep torping while also moving away from the radar range. It makes you feel very defenseless in the battlecruisers sometimes.

 

But yes, in 1 vs 1 combat comparison a battlecruiser should have the advantage over one of the silver cruisers. So it would make sense if the matchmaker actually tried to treat battlecruisers as its own class that it should balance across teams.

This was especially noticable in the last ranked season where with fewer numbers the impact of the battlecruisers is often potentially bigger when it gets matched up against a Seattle and such. The 1v1's are much more likely to happen and Seattle vs Alaska isnt pretty. :cap_viking:

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The Roon has good conceal? I mean it isn't bad but 11.8ish isn't great. OH and also stealthing in unspotted in a Roon has been near impossible with CVs today. 

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Against Destroyers and angled battleships the roon is probably better than the super-cruisers. Against cruisers and broadside battleships at range I would prefer to be in the Kronstadt or Alaska.

 

Thanks to 25/27mm plating and 60 second fires the supercruisers are great targets for HE spammers.

 

The supercruisers are strong but heavy cruisers have their place also.

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I can't say I agree. I think the Roon in particular just doesn't do enough. 

 

The HE alpha is bad, her armour just makes her more spankable. Sailing in the open long enough to stack and tic fires is a rough time since the range is short and BBs and super cruisers love her as a target. Throw in the poor turret arcs and I just don't see how she is mean to be played.

 

The french speed tank, the japs and the new italians play a hide and seek alpha game  using conceal and smoke. Brits are all about that smoke and defensive dpm with good tools and torps. The Russians have way better guns with great arcs, alpha, speed with radar on top. The Americans are island hopping DPM monsters with better AP than the Germans when the time comes to use it. 

 

So after all that I assume the Germans are meant to be all rounders, and well they seem to suck because of it. The hydro for anti torp is not useful since I don't get torped in her and closing towards a dd smoke ain't happening because that's no their roll either. The fake turtleback just gets you more spanked by the high pen stuff and the AP alpha is great and all but getting into position to use it is neigh on impossible until the last quarter of the match if your team makes it that far.

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31 minutes ago, ArnieDude said:

But yes, in 1 vs 1 combat comparison a battlecruiser should have the advantage over one of the silver cruisers. So it would make sense if the matchmaker actually tried to treat battlecruisers as its own class that it should balance across teams.

This was especially noticable in the last ranked season where with fewer numbers the impact of the battlecruisers is often potentially bigger when it gets matched up against a Seattle and such. The 1v1's are much more likely to happen and Seattle vs Alaska isnt pretty.

I would say, not making CB a separate class, is actually one of WGs better ideas.

 

CB is a straight forward design, it DPM comes from AP. So it´s effective DPM comes mostly from punishing mistakes. Because most of the ships it meets (exept some extreme DPM meme CLs) have plenty of armor do stop those shells, when played at least competently. 

 

CBs are very poor against competent players. All CAs and some CLs have no problem killing it. Because their HE has enought penetration and effective DPM is mutch higher.

 

I do hope WG balances Puerto Rico the same way and makes it a Coal ship. This would quite quickly clear the air from masses of Smolenskes.

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T9 free xp cruisers are a trap! Kronshtadt is a t9 ROMA just a damage pinata, alaska is quite good but it needs to get closed, azuma does well if you start setting fires and the enemy BB RNG says NO otherwise enjoy getting one shoted. The only free xp  ships that were worth it all the money were musashi and missoury....unfortunately this will be case as the new introduced free xp ships are weak and or lack something/incomplete!

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4 minutes ago, Animalul2012 said:

T9 free xp cruisers are a trap! Kronshtadt is a t9 ROMA just a damage pinata, alaska is quite good but it needs to get closed, azuma does well if you start setting fires and the enemy BB RNG says NO otherwise enjoy getting one shoted. The only free xp  ships that were worth it all the money were musashi and missoury....unfortunately this will be case as the new introduced free xp ships are weak and or lack something/incomplete!

The real advantage is service costs and that you play with 19 p captains = elite XP , and that they might give tokens/coal etc in events

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Hmm, as I said I think the Roon is outmatched. All the super cruisers have more range, better armour, better HE alpa (of couse) BUT they also have better HE DPM because the Roon HE alpha is sooooooooooooooo bad. Maybe I'm wrong but I just can't find her role at all. 

 

At maximum range she gets out traded with almost anything, especially these super T9s, she hasn't got the speed, stealth or amour to close or flank so what exactly do you do?

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You want a SUPER CRUISER that can stand it own against any battleship, cruiser? With good armor protection, great guns, great maneuverability? Then Bourgogne is what you are looking for comrade! But you might as well try the GUNSHIP Stalingrad with little help it can stand its ground against any destroyer, cruiser and battleship! 

Oh and you can bow in the alaska and krontrash in roon or just try and Burn them down! Watch for azuma it is your worst enemy thanks to its great HE and that 40 seconds heal( of course if the player knows what he is doing otherwise you will rain citadels on him)

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4 minutes ago, Thracen said:

Hmm, as I said I think the Roon is outmatched. All the super cruisers have more range, better armour, better HE alpa (of couse) BUT they also have better HE DPM because the Roon HE alpha is sooooooooooooooo bad. Maybe I'm wrong but I just can't find her role at all. 

Only Azuma has better HE dpm among the supercruisers than the Roon. And Roon has better accuracy than all of them.

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The accuracy doesn't matter and as I said, by the time you are in your optimal range a supercruiser has been spanking you for over a kilometer. The accuracy is great for hitting dds, but again they are love taps compared to nearly any other cruiser at t9. I've just gone and checked the stats and they don't help matters any.

 

So are these super cruisers better than a Roon. I think a resounding yes is in order on that one.

 

Can a Roon go toe to toe with these T9s, in normal match conditions these days? I think not, the longer ranges, CV spotting and passive play rife at the moment in high tiers highly favours the longer range, bigger alpha, better armoured more durable BCs.

 

So that leaves my biggest question still what role does the Roon have in today's meta? Has the German cruiser identity been lost? What is a modern Roon captain to do? I eagerly await your replies.

 

o7

Roon no suprises.PNG

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17 minutes ago, Thracen said:

Hmm, as I said I think the Roon is outmatched. All the super cruisers have more range, better armour, better HE alpa (of couse) BUT they also have better HE DPM because the Roon HE alpha is sooooooooooooooo bad. Maybe I'm wrong but I just can't find her role at all. 

You're missing AP:cap_tea:

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4 minutes ago, Panocek said:

You're missing AP:cap_tea:

As I stated above, getting into position to use the AP is a real challenge at the moment. I would also say that saying a ships strength is when it can shoot into a broadside of something is pretty redundant. What ship isn't doing good work under those conditions? Also I would say the americans do a better job of this anywho.

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Just now, Thracen said:

As I stated above, getting into position to use the AP is a real challenge at the moment. I would also say that saying a ships strength is when it can shoot into a broadside of something is pretty redundant. What ship isn't doing good work under those conditions? Also I would say the americans do a better job of this anywho.

American AP don't deal more damage on overpens than HE on saturated areas like superstructure. Also German HE still retain 51mm compared to 33mm of other 203mm guns.

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24 minutes ago, Panocek said:

American AP don't deal more damage on overpens than HE on saturated areas like superstructure. Also German HE still retain 51mm compared to 33mm of other 203mm guns.

I don't disagree with that. The issue is it isn't practically valuable enough to do the Roon any good in combat.

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39 minutes ago, Thracen said:

The accuracy doesn't matter and as I said, by the time you are in your optimal range a supercruiser has been spanking you for over a kilometer. The accuracy is great for hitting dds, but again they are love taps compared to nearly any other cruiser at t9. I've just gone and checked the stats and they don't help matters any.

If you think accuracy doesn't matter, I think that is not an issue with Roon but with the player. When Kronshtadt with it's BB level accuracy throws half its HE salvo into the water while a Roon can hit most return shots on the large ship that is the Kronshtadt, then accuracy absolutely matters.

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41 minutes ago, Thracen said:

The accuracy doesn't matter

What the F***?How it does not matter man? This is the most important thing in the game reliable guns! Do you think Stalingrad would be so effective we gave it the same accuracy as ROMA?

Do you think a ship getting this kind of accuracy is alright?

 

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Guys, guys chill. The point I was making is the accuracy of the Roons guns does not elevate it to the level of being a competitive t9 cruiser.

 

The general statement of "LOL DUR HITTING THINGS IS SILLY" isn't my argument and I think you interpreting it as such is a little disingenuous and offtopic. 

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2 hours ago, Thracen said:

So I'm grinding the Roon at the moment and I'm finding it a real challenge. Part of it is that the gun angles are terrible and the rear turret bias really makes it difficult to play forward and get into a good position. (Having to turn to get 2/3s of your firepower online is a real pain!)

 

Anywho I think part of the problem is the matchmaker putting me up against Krons and Alaska's and Azumas. All of which seem to have better stats nearly all round than the dear old Roon. The biggest issue I have being the range of these cruisers. By the time I can land my very low alpha HE on any one of these ships they are hitting back so much harder I have pretty much lost already. Closing to use the better AP isn't much of a proposition either. 

 

So TLDR: Have these big T9 cruiser/battleships put the olderschool T9s down into tier 8.5 or am I wrong? In which case, help me out with Roon tips! :D

 

Roon used to be amazing but indeed the premium T9 cruisers are stronger in my opinion. Also: the battlefield seems less forgiving these days with more and more firepower present.

 

I think she is still viable but not amazing anymore. 

 

I would love to swap her for a P-Class cruiser in the T9 line spot though. Or at least an option to mount 28cm Guns in two triple turrets

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