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Tanatoy

ST - changes to test ships

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American cruiser Puerto Rico, tier X:

 

  • Sigma parameter was changed from 1.9 to 2.2

 

The test results have shown that the ship lacks sufficient accuracy of the main caliber guns for effective play. 

 

German cruiser Mainz, tier VIII:

 

  • Bow and aft armor reduced from 27 to 25mm

 

Mainz's bow and aft armor is reduced to better match the light cruiser type and to highlight the difference from the Admiral Hipper.

 

Italian cruiser Eritrea, tier I:

 

  • Main battery reload time was reduced from 4.5 to 3.5 s

 

Italian cruiser Nino Bixio, tier II:

 

  • Main battery reload time was reduced from 13 to 12 s

 

Italian cruiser Taranto, tier III: 

 

  • Detectability range by air increased from 4 to 5.1 km
  • Main battery reload time was reduced from 13 to 12 s

 

Italian cruiser Alberto Di Giussano, tier IV:

 

  • Detectability range by air increased from 4.5 to 5.1 km

 

Italian cruiser Raimondo Montecuccoli, tier V:

 

  • Main battery reload time was increased from 13 to 14.3 s
  • Torpedoes reload time increased from 47 to 55 s

 

Italian cruiser Trento, tier VI:

 

  • Main battery reload time was reduced from 16 to 15 s

 

We continue to tune the Italian cruisers: the reload time of these ships armaments has been changed to improve their balance. Detectability range by air of Taranto and Alberto Di Giussano was less than AA defense action zone, so it was increased. 

 

Please note that the information in the Development Blog is preliminary and subject to change.

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24 minutes ago, Tanatoy said:

German cruiser Mainz, tier VIII:

 

 

  • Bow and aft armor reduced from 27 to 25mm

 

Mainz's bow and aft armor is reduced to better match the light cruiser type and to highlight the difference from the Admiral Hipper.

It is the same ship design...

If you want to stronger differentiate between Hipper and Mainz, then you should give her CL worthy firepower and give her the Nürnberg turrets.

The Königsberg turrets do not cut it at Tier VIII.

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31 minutes ago, Tanatoy said:

German cruiser Mainz, tier VIII:

  • Bow and aft armor reduced from 27 to 25mm

Mainz's bow and aft armor is reduced to better match the light cruiser type and to highlight the difference from the Admiral Hipper.

Mainz needs a DPS buff, it can barely outperform the Nurnberg at present.

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32 minuti fa, Tanatoy ha scritto:

American cruiser Puerto Rico, tier X:

 

  • Sigma parameter was changed from 1.9 to 2.2

 

The test results have shown that the ship lacks sufficient accuracy of the main caliber guns for effective play. 

 

German cruiser Mainz, tier VIII:

 

  • Bow and aft armor reduced from 27 to 25mm

 

Mainz's bow and aft armor is reduced to better match the light cruiser type and to highlight the difference from the Admiral Hipper.

 

Italian cruiser Eritrea, tier I:

 

  • Main battery reload time was reduced from 4.5 to 3.5 s

 

Italian cruiser Nino Bixio, tier II:

 

  • Main battery reload time was reduced from 13 to 12 s

 

Italian cruiser Taranto, tier III: 

 

  • Detectability range by air increased from 4 to 5.1 km
  • Main battery reload time was reduced from 13 to 12 s

 

Italian cruiser Alberto Di Giussano, tier IV:

 

  • Detectability range by air increased from 4.5 to 5.1 km

 

Italian cruiser Raimondo Montecuccoli, tier V:

 

  • Main battery reload time was increased from 13 to 14.3 s
  • Torpedoes reload time increased from 47 to 55 s

 

Italian cruiser Trento, tier VI:

 

  • Main battery reload time was reduced from 16 to 15 s

 

We continue to tune the Italian cruisers: the reload time of these ships armaments has been changed to improve their balance. Detectability range by air of Taranto and Alberto Di Giussano was less than AA defense action zone, so it was increased. 

 

Please note that the information in the Development Blog is preliminary and subject to change.

So, you are finally realising that the Italian reload was a bit too long (see the most recent Aerroon video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3oBbbUx3c4&t=4s ). 

 

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1 hour ago, Tanatoy said:

German cruiser Mainz, tier VIII:

 

  • Bow and aft armor reduced from 27 to 25mm

 

Mainz's bow and aft armor is reduced to better match the light cruiser type and to highlight the difference from the Admiral Hipper.

So a ship that is already appearing unappealing and weak on paper is getting a nerf? Great idea. What's next, a reload nerf?

 

 

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2 hours ago, Tanatoy said:

Italian cruiser Eritrea, tier I:

 

  • Main battery reload time was reduced from 4.5 to 3.5 s

 

Italian cruiser Nino Bixio, tier II:

 

  • Main battery reload time was reduced from 13 to 12 s

 

Italian cruiser Taranto, tier III: 

 

  • Detectability range by air increased from 4 to 5.1 km
  • Main battery reload time was reduced from 13 to 12 s

 

Italian cruiser Alberto Di Giussano, tier IV:

 

  • Detectability range by air increased from 4.5 to 5.1 km

 

Italian cruiser Raimondo Montecuccoli, tier V:

 

  • Main battery reload time was increased from 13 to 14.3 s
  • Torpedoes reload time increased from 47 to 55 s

 

Italian cruiser Trento, tier VI:

 

  • Main battery reload time was reduced from 16 to 15 s

 

We continue to tune the Italian cruisers: the reload time of these ships armaments has been changed to improve their balance. Detectability range by air of Taranto and Alberto Di Giussano was less than AA defense action zone, so it was increased. 

 

Please note that the information in the Development Blog is preliminary and subject to change.

Changes make no difference, the entire line failed with the entire SAP and long reload concept, Balancing needs to go back to the start and redone, cause as it is, I will just stick with my Duca D'Aosta if I want fun and if I want a bore fest then I might play the tech tree ships...

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6 hours ago, Tanatoy said:

German cruiser Mainz, tier VIII:

 

  • Bow and aft armor reduced from 27 to 25mm

 

Mainz's bow and aft armor is reduced to better match the light cruiser type and to highlight the difference from the Admiral Hipper.

 

Seriously? Why?

 

Why not make one more tanky CL? She already has lackluster DPM compared to the other CLs @T8, why nerf her further?

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4 hours ago, Chaos_Umbra said:

Changes make no difference, the entire line failed with the entire SAP and long reload concept, Balancing needs to go back to the start and redone, cause as it is, I will just stick with my Duca D'Aosta if I want fun and if I want a bore fest then I might play the tech tree ships...

Light cruisers with 14 second reload.  Hmm.  I can understand the theory, but with SAP performance at these Tiers the Italian Tier IV and V look as if they're going to be OP in the hands of some players and hopelessly useless with others. How about giving them normal HE and AP only on an 8 second reload, with SAP only coming on on the Heavies at Tier VI, where it's better balanced?

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33 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

Light cruisers with 14 second reload.  Hmm.  I can understand the theory, but with SAP performance at these Tiers the Italian Tier IV and V look as if they're going to be OP in the hands of some players and hopelessly useless with others. How about giving them normal HE and AP only on an 8 second reload, with SAP only coming on on the Heavies at Tier VI, where it's better balanced?

Nah, even the heavy cruisers have DPM issues. When the Italians drop they will get quickly declared POS after people learn that you can disable them by angling. Pasta Cruiser pops out, you angle, *sad pasta noises* as he gets sunk with 0 counterplay.

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44 minutes ago, Aragathor said:

Nah, even the heavy cruisers have DPM issues. When the Italians drop they will get quickly declared POS after people learn that you can disable them by angling. Pasta Cruiser pops out, you angle, *sad pasta noises* as he gets sunk with 0 counterplay.

I knew this would happen as soon as they posted the initial stats, and first thing I thought was oh no this line is dead before it even goes through further balancing, I was so hyped when they ships were first announced then when the gimmicks were announced I knew they were dead. Was looking forward to them cause; A- they look nice and B- I enjoyed the game-play of the Duca so much. In the end they are more of the same shoot 1 ammo type from max range and pray you don't get torped or BB'd.

 

I even grind-ed the PTS Research Bureau just to confirm my fears so I tried out the T6, it had 2nd worst Rudder of the tier (No dodging here), the worst concealment of the tier, equal 2nd best speed of the tier, worst armour scheme of the tier worse reload than a Pensacola and 2 less guns, and below average shell velocity (Same as Aoba but with a lot more shell drag, the shells came down almost vertical at 12km range) & lastly no utility (Hydro etc). Then onto the SAP ammo, basically in any broadside situation SAP was better than AP especially against Kirovs as SAP citadels them (So anyone grinding the Kirov finish the grind before the next patch) and for dealing with BBs you want to be max range as then the shells came down vertical and you got 10k+ salvos, even against T10 BBs (except Kremlin, GK & Yamato). If any ship is closer than your rainbow arcs appear and is bow on well the only way to damage them was with torps...

 

A prime example of a gimmick doing more harm than good just like RN BB HE...

 

Well at least while a lot of the RN CAs are not much in the looks department they do at least seem to have reasonable and fun characteristics...

 

As for the SAP I could actually see it doing really well on Italian BBs as a gimmick, especially with Roma that has an Overpen issue with broadside cruisers closer than 12km (Obviously with the SAP alpha lower than the AP alpha).

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7 ore fa, Chaos_Umbra ha scritto:

As for the SAP I could actually see it doing really well on Italian BBs as a gimmick, especially with Roma that has an Overpen issue with broadside cruisers closer than 12km (Obviously with the SAP alpha lower than the AP alpha).

Scharnhorst and Gneisenau actually had SAP in dotation in real life (it was basically IFHE). My main problem is the long reload.

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To anyone wondering, here is a handy table to illustrate the problem with SAP vs. HE, starting with the first heavy cruiser in the tech tree at T6:

 

Spoiler

image.png.ff54ce0e653d665e8714fd9d2cfc9c22.png

 

Trento has a high DPM, but is still inferior to cruisers that can also set ships on fire. That's right, they outgun her and can still damage saturated targets by lighting them up. LaGal also has the MBRB, so it compensates for the low DPM.

Compared to this, Leander is the king of DPM to compensate for the 0 fire chance. And no one can claim Leander is OP because of that, even with the box'o'gimmicks she has. And let's also remember that you can't angle against HE and it will set you on fire.

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13 minuti fa, Aragathor ha scritto:

To anyone wondering, here is a handy table to illustrate the problem with SAP vs. HE, starting with the first heavy cruiser in the tech tree at T6:

 

  Nascondi contenuti

image.png.ff54ce0e653d665e8714fd9d2cfc9c22.png

 

Trento has a high DPM, but is still inferior to cruisers that can also set ships on fire. That's right, they outgun her and can still damage saturated targets by lighting them up. LaGal also has the MBRB, so it compensates for the low DPM.

Compared to this, Leander is the king of DPM to compensate for the 0 fire chance. And no one can claim Leander is OP because of that, even with the box'o'gimmicks she has. And let's also remember that you can't angle against HE and it will set you on fire.

That's the problem, it's not the fact of being unable to set fires, but it's the fact that the reload doesn't make up for it.

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17 hours ago, Tanatoy said:

German cruiser Mainz, tier VIII:

 

  • Bow and aft armor reduced from 27 to 25mm

 

Mainz's bow and aft armor is reduced to better match the light cruiser type and to highlight the difference from the Admiral Hipper.

Have you considered that some people liked the Mainz' 27mm plate because it differentiated Mainz from the other T8 CLs? And it has a Hipper class hull, don't you think the expectation is that it has the same armour? There is difference enough in the guns.

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RIP Mainz. Another dream died to WG balancing department...

 

And maybe, just maybe, you should take a look at the Hipper, which is basically just a sad excuse of a T8 cruiser.

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On 10/14/2019 at 4:00 PM, Tanatoy said:

German cruiser Mainz, tier VIII:

 

 

  • Bow and aft armor reduced from 27 to 25mm

 

Mainz's bow and aft armor is reduced to better match the light cruiser type and to highlight the difference from the Admiral Hipper.

I am not sure that the point got through.

Let´s take a look at Hipper and Eugen on which the Mainz will be based on:

image.thumb.png.97cec768b3a7bf6812a6ef3ee3f02cad.png

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20191012/eu_2month/average_ship.html

 

While I am sure you have better data, this is the most accurate data we players have access to.

 

When you look at Hipper and compare her to her silver counterparts, you see that she performs badly. Her only strongpoint is her tanking ability.

When you look at Eugen and compare her to her premium counterparts, you see that she performs badly too, only beating Irian in WR. Once again tanking is her only strongpoint.

 

Now you decide to base Mainz on these ships and reduce her armor, reducing the only strongpoint of these ships, and add Tier VI CL firepower?

Are you really sure this will work?

 

Considering the base you start from, Mainz needs the same defensive ability and good firepower to be viable (4xNürnberg turrets for example).

When you reduce her defense ability, you need to crank up her other abilities to 11 to be viable. I do not see that yet.

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On 10/14/2019 at 3:26 PM, ColonelPete said:

It is the same ship design...

If you want to stronger differentiate between Hipper and Mainz, then you should give her CL worthy firepower and give her the Nürnberg turrets.

The Königsberg turrets do not cut it at Tier VIII.

 

From tier 8 CLs have 16mm and CA have 25mm plating. 27mm is reserved for CAs that lack survival based gimmicks like speed boost, heal, smoke etc.

 

Mainz with 25mm plating is a nice buff (stops most DDs wrecking your face)

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2 minutes ago, creamgravy said:

 

From tier 8 CLs have 16mm and CA have 25mm plating. 27mm is reserved for CAs that lack survival based gimmicks like speed boost, heal, smoke etc.

 

Mainz with 25mm plating is a nice buff (stops most DDs wrecking your face)

That might be the case. But these CL have A LOT more firepower than a Tier VI CL, which 4x Königsberg turrets are roughly equivalent to.

Look at the HE DPM:

https://proships.ru/stat/ru/ships/3959,3332/

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Just now, ColonelPete said:

That might be the case. But these CL have A LOT more firepower than a Tier VI CL, which 4x Königsberg turrets are roughly equivalent to.

Look at the HE DPM:

https://proships.ru/stat/ru/ships/3959,3332/

Nberg DPM was buffed to compete with tier 6 Cleveland, it's a terrible yard stick for comparison.

 

The German faction ammo gimmick is... HE: Low alpha, high pen. AP: High alpha, low pen.

 

Mainz HE shells have 37mm pen with a 10% fire chance after captain skills (or 48mm pen and 7% fire chance if that's a thing at tier 8+??)

Chappy and Cleveland HE shells have 32mm pen with 11% fire chance after captain skills.

 

So super reliable HE spam and devastating AP potential agasint broadside superstructure/hull plating. It's not a weak ship in anyway.

 

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27 minutes ago, creamgravy said:

 

From tier 8 CLs have 16mm and CA have 25mm plating. 27mm is reserved for CAs that lack survival based gimmicks like speed boost, heal, smoke etc.

 

Mainz with 25mm plating is a nice buff (stops most DDs wrecking your face)

25mm is the standard for T8+ cruisers.

Only British and a couple of new cruisers ( Smolensk, Colbert and Bayard) have less.

 

Seems very normal to make it 25mm for the now light cruiser.

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27 minutes ago, creamgravy said:

Nberg DPM was buffed to compete with tier 6 Cleveland, it's a terrible yard stick for comparison.

 

The German faction ammo gimmick is... HE: Low alpha, high pen. AP: High alpha, low pen.

 

Mainz HE shells have 37mm pen with a 10% fire chance after captain skills (or 48mm pen and 7% fire chance if that's a thing at tier 8+??)

Chappy and Cleveland HE shells have 32mm pen with 11% fire chance after captain skills.

 

So super reliable HE spam and devastating AP potential agasint broadside superstructure/hull plating. It's not a weak ship in anyway.

 

Dallas and Buddy have similar DPM.

And while the AP does high damage, the low pen hurts at Tier VIII.

Believe me, 4x Koenigsberg turrets will not be enough for Tier VIII.

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48 minutes ago, creamgravy said:

 

From tier 8 CLs have 16mm and CA have 25mm plating. 27mm is reserved for CAs that lack survival based gimmicks like speed boost, heal, smoke etc.

 

Mainz with 25mm plating is a nice buff (stops most DDs wrecking your face)

Nope, as noted above by gopher31, 25mm plating is standard on T8+ cruisers, light or heavy. The only exception up until recently* were british light cruisers - AKA the gimmick line.

 

*That would be because of the newcomers (Smolensk, Colbert and Bayard) potentially being testing ground for a future plating change along with planned IFHE changes.

 

Either way, I find Mainz to be an even worse offering than the original Eugen. At least that one had (and afaik still has) a unique captain XP bonus on the permacamo. Can't shake the feeling that only german DDs make decent premiums.

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2 hours ago, creamgravy said:

 

From tier 8 CLs have 16mm and CA have 25mm plating. 27mm is reserved for CAs that lack survival based gimmicks like speed boost, heal, smoke etc.

 

2 hours ago, gopher31 said:

25mm is the standard for T8+ cruisers.

Only British and a couple of new cruisers ( Smolensk, Colbert and Bayard) have less.

 

Seems very normal to make it 25mm for the now light cruiser.

 

People seem to forget (and WG as well) that the designation CL only applies to the size of the guns so in theory if you took a Tirpitz and replaced all the main guns with a load of Koenigsburg turrets it would still be a CL despite the ridiculous armour on it, just cause it is a CL is no reason why it can't have the 27mm armour. Also another issue with the ship is that the turrets from the Koenigsburg have only 20mm armour so even DD HE can knock them out easily...

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