Removing rewards for dieing too early

[DFens_666]

So this thought just popped into my mind, which actually would make sense imo.

In CBs/Clan Brawl, you dont receive rewards if the game ends too early. Think its like 3,5 mins or so, which for Clan Brawl was a bit iffy. I think fastest game we had was 4 mins. If both teams play aggressive, it can end quite early.

 

Why dont they do that for Randoms/Ranked aswell? 3,5 mins would be a start atleast, so people who just yolo suicide will think twice about it since they would lose even more money and wont gain XP.

Rushing in and dieing is just griefing your team, regardless of why they do it (i play 4 fun, im lowtier, ...)

I rather have people play a bit more cautious, than that i lose all my DDs 3 mins into the game

 

If someone wants to object, that you can die early because of bad luck (deto f.e.):

That shouldnt be a big problem, i think everyone can live with that if it happens once in a blue moon.

 

[Isoruku_Yamamoto]

Well no, since that also makes people who actually kill others in the first say 3  mins look kinda bad. Ive devstriked cruisers on their first detection in my yamato, and while surely thats dumb from them, such idea would only increase salt towards me. 

 

If you die in ranked or random so quickly youll have little XP and credits in general anyway. 

CBs is a team effort, not a solo effort. So commanders sometimes just trade ships for instance. Not the player to blame, and its not a bad thing either in CBs. 

[ForlornSailor]

With all those people, that even admit, that they dont care about winning, teamplay or even "want to play all their ships every day, so they have only 3 min per game" I think its neccessary to enforce playing for the team/win at this point.

[ForlornSailor]

3 minutes ago, Isoruku_Yamamoto said:

CBs is a team effort, not a solo effort. So commanders sometimes just trade ships for instance. Not the player to blame, and its not a bad thing either in CBs. 

 

So are randoms. And trading ships in the first 3 mins cant be a good thing since you have no clue in which direction the game is going to swing.

 

4 minutes ago, Isoruku_Yamamoto said:

Well no, since that also makes people who actually kill others in the first say 3  mins look kinda bad. Ive devstriked cruisers on their first detection in my yamato, and while surely thats dumb from them, such idea would only increase salt towards me. 

 

Well, thats kinda the point, isnt it? It shouldnt happen. We all hate those one sided games, that are over within 6 mins because one team ran out of points, half the team dead. If it can be enforced, that those people play more careful, then thats a win-win. Remember: they are on your team also.

[Egoleter]

So you want more static gameplay and cowering in fear behind islands because no one wants his ship touched to early?

 

I had plenty of games where I died first and extremly early, yet still managed to be the top scorer of the team, due to the rest of them being to afraid of getting their paint scratched, or due to their fear of circular objects on the minimap. I object against any change that would reward those players more then people who actually try to do something.

 

Early scouting would no longer happen, except maybe by CVs if they are present in the battle. Good luck finding out where the enemy is.

 

The timer in the competitive battles exists to prevent match rigging.

[Isoruku_Yamamoto]

3 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

So are randoms. And trading ships in the first 3 mins cant be a good thing since you have no clue in which direction the game is going to swing.

 

 

Well, thats kinda the point, isnt it? It shouldnt happen. We all hate those one sided games, that are over within 6 mins because one team ran out of points, half the team dead. If it can be enforced, that those people play more careful, then thats a win-win. Remember: they are on your team also.

So you think i'll hold my shot in my Yamato because the enemy Zao is a potato? Not gonna happen. 

And that zao wont change his behaviour, hes bad at the game. And you wont correct that through economics.

 

As for ship trading: in CBs a commander doesnt know what will happen, but he does have expectations, and a worst case and best case. You dont have a commander in randoms. 

In CBs sacrificing a DD to get the enemy DD out of the way is in our clan often a good trade, since we generally play with more DDs. 

So then you have a lead in destroyers, which will lead to more caps etc

[ForlornSailor]

5 minutes ago, Egoleter said:

So you want more static gameplay and cowering in fear behind islands because no one wants his ship touched to early?

 

I had plenty of games where I died first and extremly early, yet still managed to be the top scorer of the team, due to the rest of them being to afraid of getting their paint scratched, or due to their fear of circular objects on the minimap. I object against any change that would reward those players more then people who actually try to do something. 

 

Completly missed the point here. I survive about 65% of my battles recently yet im a very aggressive player and usualy among the first to make contact with the enemy. According to you, that doesnt fit together.

 

And talking about rewarding: Such a mechanic, that would make people stop from suiciding early, would actually benefit the good players. Because you get more XP / Credits in a game that lasts 15 mins compared to a 6 min rofl stomp - no matter if you win OR lose.

 

7 minutes ago, Egoleter said:

The timer in the competitive battles exists to prevent match rigging.

 

So we rigged the match because we beat the enemys in 4 mins. rofl. nice.

[ForlornSailor]

2 minutes ago, Isoruku_Yamamoto said:

And that zao wont change his behaviour, hes bad at the game. And you wont correct that through economics.

 

So then we can aswell take away his rewards. why do you care?

 

2 minutes ago, Isoruku_Yamamoto said:

So you think i'll hold my shot in my Yamato because the enemy Zao is a potato? Not gonna happen. 

 

No idea what that has to do with anything? You imply that you care if that Zao gets credits and XP?

 

3 minutes ago, Isoruku_Yamamoto said:

In CBs sacrificing a DD to get the enemy DD out of the way is in our clan often a good trade, since we generally play with more DDs. 

So then you have a lead in destroyers, which will lead to more caps etc

 

You do understand, that in CBs every player gets the same XP, right? And that this topic is specifically about randoms? So please dont throw "but ranked, but CB" stuff in here as arguments - you are waaay off topic.

[DFens_666]

Just now, Isoruku_Yamamoto said:

So you think i'll hold my shot in my Yamato because the enemy Zao is a potato? Not gonna happen. 

And that zao wont change his behaviour, hes bad at the game. And you wont correct that through economics. 

 

Why should it affect you in any way? And economics is EXACTLY the issue with bad play. They play bad, because they dont care and can still advance through the tiers. Ive even done the math, spamming games is favourable if you are a bad player, as its highly unlikely that you will earn tons of XP. Ive even seen people admitting that...

 

21 minutes ago, Isoruku_Yamamoto said:

Well no, since that also makes people who actually kill others in the first say 3  mins look kinda bad. Ive devstriked cruisers on their first detection in my yamato, and while surely thats dumb from them, such idea would only increase salt towards me. 

 

Imo thats 2 seperate issue:

- If it happens SOMETIMES to a certain play -> you can live with that.

- If it happens all the time to the same player -> He should get punished for that and rethink his approach.

 

10 minutes ago, Egoleter said:

So you want more static gameplay and cowering in fear behind islands because no one wants his ship touched to early?

 

Thats a different issue. Besides, its not about either dieing in 1,5 mins or not doing anything. You are deliberately ignoring to play NORMALY because you want to make a point.

Also, i can work around people sitting in the back. I cant work around having 5 deadships in 3 minutes, as the game will end 3 mins later because we dont have any points left.

 

13 minutes ago, Egoleter said:

Early scouting would no longer happen, except maybe by CVs if they are present in the battle. Good luck finding out where the enemy is.

So you cant scout without dieing? Interesting concept...

You are trying to make points, which arent there. And on the other hand, those are exactly the people that need to get punished because they ruin the game for everyone.

 

[Fat_Maniac]

30 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

So this thought just popped into my mind, which actually would make sense imo.

In CBs/Clan Brawl, you dont receive rewards if the game ends too early. Think its like 3,5 mins or so, which for Clan Brawl was a bit iffy. I think fastest game we had was 4 mins. If both teams play aggressive, it can end quite early.

 

Why dont they do that for Randoms/Ranked aswell? 3,5 mins would be a start atleast, so people who just yolo suicide will think twice about it since they would lose even more money and wont gain XP.

Rushing in and dieing is just griefing your team, regardless of why they do it (i play 4 fun, im lowtier, ...)

I rather have people play a bit more cautious, than that i lose all my DDs 3 mins into the game

 

If someone wants to object, that you can die early because of bad luck (deto f.e.):

That shouldnt be a big problem, i think everyone can live with that if it happens once in a blue moon.

 

Nice idea but ..

 

All that would turn into is everyone camping or hiding behind islands for the first 3.5 mins, and just blobbing together if there were CV's.

[Isoruku_Yamamoto]

1 minute ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

So then we can aswell take away his rewards. why do you care?

 

 

No idea what that has to do with anything? You imply that you care if that Zao gets credits and XP?

 

 

You do understand, that in CBs every player gets the same XP, right? And that this topic is specifically about randoms? So please dont throw "but ranked, but CB" stuff in here as arguments - you are waaay off topic.

Let me start with CBs: i am not off topic, as the OP starts about CB and only later mentions ranked and random. 

Please dont throw "please dont throw random arguments in here" at me when you're the one whos wrong about the topic.

 

As for my example: i dobt care if that Zao gets credits. But you two suggest it as a magic solution to early dieing, while really, it wont solve a thing.

 

You could do something in this direction, but it should then at least be focussed on enticing actual useful play (remember, an AFK will pass your three minutes, but is less useful than cannonfodder Zao) 

At least make it minimum XP required or whatever. Below 300=0.

 

But this is arbitrary and useless

[Egoleter]

2 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

So you cant scout without dieing? Interesting concept...

Twisting words? Interesting concept.

 

The fear of dying to early will prevent scouting.

[HMS_Kilinowski]

37 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

So this thought just popped into my mind, which actually would make sense imo.

In CBs/Clan Brawl, you dont receive rewards if the game ends too early. Think its like 3,5 mins or so, which for Clan Brawl was a bit iffy. I think fastest game we had was 4 mins. If both teams play aggressive, it can end quite early.

 

Why dont they do that for Randoms/Ranked aswell? 3,5 mins would be a start atleast, so people who just yolo suicide will think twice about it since they would lose even more money and wont gain XP.

Rushing in and dieing is just griefing your team, regardless of why they do it (i play 4 fun, im lowtier, ...)

I rather have people play a bit more cautious, than that i lose all my DDs 3 mins into the game

 

If someone wants to object, that you can die early because of bad luck (deto f.e.):

That shouldnt be a big problem, i think everyone can live with that if it happens once in a blue moon.

I don't get your thought. Do you want to punish individual players for dying early or the entire team for losing early?

If you want to punish individuals, if i was a DD I would start giving my team the finger. Most of the time a DD dies anyway cause he is abandoned by his team in the crucial moment. So if the DD who sticks out his head for the team gets bullied into doing so and punished for dying at the same time, that's not gonna fly.

If you wanna punish the team, you will have a hard time defining a threshold where you can legitimately lose. The rule in Clan Brawl was made so no clans could sync into battles and rig results. That's why not even the winning team would have got rewards for a suspiciously early win. Still, my team won battles after 4-5 mins and if the enemy team had made one more mistake these battles might have been over even a minute earlier. It is very difficult to define such a legitimate duration.

 

I catch your drift but I think other means should be applied. I have witnessed far too many situations where I would blame cowardly play of others for the loss of a ship that was properly played. Don't kill the messenger.

[Molly_Delaney]

So, Op, you want anyone who gets sunk in the first 5 minutes to not get any rewards?

That's fine I'll just take my DD and go sit at the back for 5 minutes and then go spot for you, that ok?

Cos, that's what'll happen......

And there will be an assumption that everyone has paid really money for their ships as to a new player there appears to be no way to get xp, credits etc.

 

Forum members are generally better players than the vast majority, my last match had a rather proportion of forum members and was a good example of teamwork in action; much more 'co-ordinated' than a normal random..

[ForlornSailor]

1 minute ago, Isoruku_Yamamoto said:

Let me start with CBs: i am not off topic, as the OP starts about CB and only later mentions ranked and random. 

 

He mentions CB because it is already in place there. So if you want to argue against this punishment beeing applied, you need to open your own topic and argue, that the mechanic needs to be REMOVED. You talk, as if it doesnt exist at this very moment - which it does...

 

2 minutes ago, Isoruku_Yamamoto said:

As for my example: i dobt care if that Zao gets credits. But you two suggest it as a magic solution to early dieing, while really, it wont solve a thing.

 

Yes it will. Because ultimatly, those people can not afford to play their ships, since they run out of credits. Easy.

 

3 minutes ago, Isoruku_Yamamoto said:

remember, an AFK will pass your three minutes, but is less useful than cannonfodder Zao

Thats an entire different issue tho. And sometimes, I rather have an AFK then a DD dead in 2 mins.

 

4 minutes ago, Isoruku_Yamamoto said:

At least make it minimum XP required or whatever. Below 300=0.

 

That could actually be a usefull addition. Atleast yolo´ers, that get something done, get rewarded. I can live with that.

 

3 minutes ago, Molly_Delaney said:

So, Op, you want anyone who gets sunk in the first 5 minutes to not get any rewards?

 

Nope. thats not what he said. Read again.

[DFens_666]

Just now, Egoleter said:

The fear of dying to early will prevent scouting.

 

Fine with me, let people scout who actually are able to do it without dieing.

You could even hope, that BBs manage to move a bit further ahead since they dont see enemies at 25km and can snipe them from there. But i think im dreaming right now

 

2 minutes ago, Isoruku_Yamamoto said:

As for my example: i dobt care if that Zao gets credits. But you two suggest it as a magic solution to early dieing, while really, it wont solve a thing.

 

You could do something in this direction, but it should then at least be focussed on enticing actual useful play (remember, an AFK will pass your three minutes, but is less useful than cannonfodder Zao) 

At least make it minimum XP required or whatever. Below 300=0. 

 

So then tell me: Why people rush in and die 2 minutes into the game? What is their goal while playing? They play 2 mins, but all the loading and waiting takes more time.

 

AFK people get 0 XP btw. And ive won games with an entire 3x division being AFK on my side. Yet, winning a game with half your team dead after 5 mins is almost impossible, and happens much more often than having 3 AFK ships.

 

The issue with getting more than 300XP: If the game runs for more than 15mins or so (im not sure exactly) but the game seems to give our more XP. Ive had a game where i didnt do anything, died quite early but got >1000 XP. I think the game ran full 20 mins or atleast close to it. Would need to see if i made a screenshot from it.

[DFens_666]

13 minutes ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

I don't get your thought. Do you want to punish individual players for dying early or the entire team for losing early?

 

Ofc individual players - no need to punish the whole team, as i cant choose with whom im playing (unlike CBs, where i know the people im playing with)

 

15 minutes ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

if i was a DD I would start giving my team the finger. Most of the time a DD dies anyway cause he is abandoned by his team in the crucial moment. So if the DD who sticks out his head for the team gets bullied into doing so and punished for dying at the same time, that's not gonna fly.

 

Ive never understood the problem about being bullied. Why care what they say? Its not like it can physically harm you. If they overstep it: Report them to the support, done that a few times.

 

17 minutes ago, Molly_Delaney said:

So, Op, you want anyone who gets sunk in the first 5 minutes to not get any rewards? 

 

Definetely didnt say 5 minutes. And obviously, you could make a debate what the time limit might be. Everything below 2 mins would ofc be stupid.

 

18 minutes ago, Molly_Delaney said:

That's fine I'll just take my DD and go sit at the back for 5 minutes and then go spot for you, that ok?

Cos, that's what'll happen......

And there will be an assumption that everyone has paid really money for their ships as to a new player there appears to be no way to get xp, credits etc.

 

Forum members are generally better players than the vast majority, my last match had a rather proportion of forum members and was a good example of teamwork in action; much more 'co-ordinated' than a normal random..

 

I dont get why you would do the complete opposite: Its like, either go in and die or sit in the back. You can do everything without dieing right away, you just need to think one step ahead. If i want to get a cap in a DD, should i steam full ahead, go further and further when i dont see anything, and suddenly get radared without a chance of turning away anymore, or should i maybe turn in advance so i can run away faster? Its not rocket science imo.

And people who dont want to think how they play in a teamgame deserve to get punished for it. Thats my stand on it.

 

Frequently people are whining about matches being roflstomps ending in 6 minutes. Why do roflstomps happen? Because half the team suicides too fast.

But trying to find solutions (which are already in place in other gamemodes) is not ok either... whatever

[DFens_666]

32 minutes ago, Fat_Maniac said:

All that would turn into is everyone camping or hiding behind islands for the first 3.5 mins, and just blobbing together if there were CV's. 

 

At this point, id prefer that really. Imo there is nothing worse than having a lost game after 3-4 mins, because its not possible to turn it around.

[Egoleter]

Just now, DFens_666 said:

At this point, id prefer that really. Imo there is nothing worse than having a lost game after 3-4 mins, because its not possible to turn it around.

You are just moving the inevitable to a later point of time.

IF (intentially big "if") the players find their will to move out of hiding after those three or four minutes. Which I highly doubt.

 

I much prefer a fast but eventfull battle over a long and boring one.

[DFens_666]

Just now, Egoleter said:

You are just moving the inevitable to a later point of time.

IF (intentially big "if") the players find their will to move out of hiding after those three or four minutes. Which I highly doubt.

 

And with that, i disagree. If 3-5 of my ships die before the 5 minute mark, and the enemies dont have to leave their spawn because of those, than i have a hard time doing anything myself without yoloing aswell. However, if my team doesnt die, i have more time to get something done myself, i.e. create an advantage for my team. Cant do that if half my team is dead.

Just an example from yesterday, which is not that great because its lowtiers (and my original proposal is more for hightiers anyway):

- 3CV / 4 DD / 2 BB / 2 Cruiser game on T4. By the time, we killed their Phoenix, which was actually quite fast, we basicly lost all our DDs. They straightlined into their death, taking torps - they didnt do anything. We were down 5 or 6 ships vs 1 one of them very fast. No chance to win, because the CVs started whacking me, even tho i still managed a Kraken after that. So if my DDs wouldnt have died, i think we would have won.

[Kenjiro_]

All we need is that players understand they lose the same amount of credits and xp when they lose whether they survive or not.  

 

Camping in the map border is a much of a problem as early yoloers. 

 

I'm really tired of people trying to protect their paint while others bleed&die for the objectives..

[HMS_Kilinowski]

Quote

Ive never understood the problem about being bullied. Why care what they say? Its not like it can physically harm you. If they overstep it: Report them to the support, done that a few times.

Maybe you are toxic yourself, so the whole team spirit, as small as it may be, never meant anything to you. I am just speculating, as I cannot remember ever having played with you. The suggestion itself at least is a negative one, it is all about taking something away from someone, not rewarding something.

The problem with bullying is that it ruins the battle. Suddenly some guy starts arguing and the whole chat is all about some guy being afk or not pushing or overextending or going to the wrong side. Have you ever noticed most players talk about past actions in a battle? Seldom you hear people giving constructive and good advice. No they all stay silent until something happens and then it's complaining until the end of the battle. I need my chat to be clean and I need other players to be able to read essential information. So I type something useful but it's gone in secconds because someone bumps the info just to complain or bully another player, to achieve nothing.

And it ruins my fun. When a DD is in the front line, he doesn't have the luxury of picking his nose, like some BB does 15km behind him. He is balancing on the edge. A BB can afford to not look at the mini map every second. For a DD every instant he needs to absorb information he gets. The last thing a DD needs is some super smart individual, trying to tell him what to do, getting him insecure in the wrong moment.

 

If you die early, it is not automatically your fault. It may be, but that is not something easily addressed by algorithms or simple rules. The idea of punishing people for dying early is not suited to improve gameplay. If it was one could make a case of not giving XP to the last BB alive if its hp is more than half at that point. You can try to define conditions that you feel describe bad or selfish play, but you will likely punish the wrong people for the wrong reasons.

[Spellfire40]

Removing rewards for what class? DDs are suposed to cap and there is sometimke a good Chance to be blaped out of the water same for Cruisers random RNG salvo from a BB and your game can be ended pretty quick?

You want to only reward blue line Campers and BBs and CVs? I Rather have a CA that Risk it and dies early behind me in a DD than my Team being 14+km behind me while the DDs i Encounter in the cap have their suport 5 to 8 km behind them...... if you want to remove rewards from any class how About everyone who cant find their W key till their DDs reach the cap?

[Fat_Maniac]

20 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

At this point, id prefer that really. Imo there is nothing worse than having a lost game after 3-4 mins, because its not possible to turn it around.

Well another solution, and the more I think about it the funnier it would be ...

 

Just change the spawn positions on all maps, push the BB and Cruiser spawn points closer to the DD's and advance everyone closer to the caps.

 

If someone does yolo at least his team mates should be in range to see what's shooting at him, and the BB's can spend the first 5 mins running backwards 

[ForlornSailor]

11 minutes ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

f you die early, it is not automatically your fault.

 

So what does it change? We all sometimes die early for whatever reason. That amounts to like 0,00000001% of your XP / credits that you wont be getting. big deal. Unless you do it constantly and those useless players need to learn how to play or faced with such a harsh economy, that they cant efford to keep on playing. Or have to pay real cash for each and every game. Non teamplayers have no place in a teambased game. period. You can twist and turn and throw your buts, but its not going to change that fact.