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Thracen

Educate me on AA please!?!

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So, I know how to use priority sector.

 

What I don't know after all the changes, is what ships actually have effective AA and what ships don't. I have no idea what skills are good for AA and what aren't and I have no idea which ships should build for AA and which shouldn't.

 

Help, with all the changes I'm lost, all the guides I find seem to be out of date and I'm sick to death of being free farmed in my Roon. 

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9 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

In b4 anyone says "don't bother, all AA is rubbish" 

This! 

 

All AA related skills and modules are garbage now... 

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Are there even any ships with naturally good AA? I have a real need to punish a CV and it seems like that just isn't possible anymore?

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Generally speaking BBs have the most effective AA suites, especially if you equip the catapult fighter and use it to full effectiveness. Montana I believe has the best DPS values overall in the game, however that doesn't mean much, even T8 CVs will still be able to push strikes through against you easily assuming they're sufficiently skilled.

 

Among cruisers Minotaur still reigns supreme, but she is a shadow of her former self being around 200 DPS behind Montana in AA effectiveness if I recall correctly. Plenty of BBs have better AA suites than her. Worcester is close but worse still. DM AA has been completely murdered, being roughly equivalent to a NC now.

 

In terms of DDs Friesland is the only DD with a meaningful AA suite with about the same base AA as a Colo if I remember correctly, followed by Kidd which has the equivalent of T6 AA, roughly same with Gearing and then comes Grozo which already falls between the T5-6 brackets. Safe to say you don't want to invest into AA in these ships as it won't do anything.

 

The only worthwhile AA skill is BFT. Everything else either severely shafts your surface combat ability or is trash.

You don't actually want DFAA either since it only gives a 50% increase in DPS now which is largely meaningless. Hydro provides much better utility.

Sector reinforcement does allow you to deal more damage but in the grand scheme of things is largely useless as well.

 

Tl;dr:

Use Montana, use catapult fighter, take BFT, use sector reinforcement, still get slamdunked by T8 CVs.

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Play a cv and you’ll know how pointless AA is, no matter what tier or how good your AA is planes will get thru, bombs dropped are like tall boys knocking off more hip than being citadelled by a bb, 30 secs later another sqn is after you, while the carrier itself hides safely on the map edge, many (all cv drivers say they are not op), yes they are.  Another reason fighting weakens your AA, that incoming sqn will be fresh and the cv full hp.

 

I play 1-2 games a day in a cv,  this morning I easily killed 4 ships. My ship at the end had full  hp and 3 sqns raring to go, any other surviving ship was battered and bruised, not op, 🤣.

 

Forget AA builds as the planes will always get thru, WG did it that way.

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Wow, well thanks for taking the time to lay it out like that. At least it shortens my hunt for a solution. I'm amazed cruisers have been relegated to sub par AA, back in the day it was their selling point for many!

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20 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

In b4 anyone says "don't bother, all AA is rubbish" 

It is the best visual in the game. The numbers in port are just that, numbers. :Smile_trollface:

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3 hours ago, Thracen said:

Are there even any ships with naturally good AA? I have a real need to punish a CV and it seems like that just isn't possible anymore?

 

Well depends on what tier you mean. Most US ships in general has good AA, its basically the AA tech tree in the game. The US light cruisers are the best and Id probably say Cleveland tier for tier is amoung the most powerful. But then you have stuff like Worcester.

But no ship is immune to the first strike, aswell as they shouldnt be.

Should probably also point out that some ships rely more heavely on heavy flak bursts than small caliber AA. The flak bursts are easier.... or well they CAN be avoided.

 

I honestly think AA and CVs are in a good place right now, as good as they ever will be I think.

Do want to add thou. Change the effin fighters. Its absolutely ridicolous to launch a fighter squad from either a CV or a BB or a cruiser and make that entire zone a complete no fly zone for whatever the duration is on the plane. It needs to have SOME counterplay.

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7 minutes ago, Floofz said:

Well depends on what tier you mean. Most US ships in general has good AA, its basically the AA tech tree in the game. The US light cruisers are the best and Id probably say Cleveland tier for tier is amoung the most powerful. But then you have stuff like Worcester.

I take a Dallas more serious, tier for tier, because it actually gets a fighter.

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47 minutes ago, Floofz said:

But no ship is immune to the first strike, aswell as they shouldnt be.

 

Because striking a cruiser for half his health in a single attack with no counterplay options on his part is funny I suppose?

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15 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Because striking a cruiser for half his health in a single attack with no counterplay options on his part is funny I suppose?

 

Two broken things doesnt mean one right. Your way of arguing is flawed

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20 minutes ago, Floofz said:

Two broken things doesnt mean one right. Your way of arguing is flawed

 

Uh huh, how so?

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1 minute ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Uh huh, how so?

 

Let me educate you then. If you make a ship immune to striking you make it immune to damage from said class. What then happens if its the end of the game and its the CV and a ship of that class left? Is it supposed to be an auto win for said ship? No, no ship should ever under any circumstances be immune to damage from another ship.

Then you for some reason decided to bring up the damage output that some CVs have, mainly the high tier IJN lines AP bombs. Ive stated before that I think they do too much damage. I do not however see how this is relevant to the discussion about a completely different topic, hence why I said what I said. Just because high AA counterplay is bad doesnt mean its suddenly okay because AP bombs does too much damage, what about the ships that doesnt have that damage output? like the RN line? 

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2 minutes ago, Floofz said:

Just because high AA counterplay is bad doesnt mean its suddenly okay because AP bombs does too much damage, what about the ships that doesnt have that damage output? like the RN line? 

Just like RTS carriers?:cap_tea:

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I used to carry an Akizuki with full AA build which used to demolish alot of planes. But unfortunately now I carry the old "manual AA" skill (not sure how it's called now) which disables reinforcement sector (and I don't have doubloons to change it). Now it's quite garbage.

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Vor 3 Minuten, Sargento_YO sagte:

I used to carry an Akizuki with full AA build which used to demolish alot of planes. But unfortunately now I carry the old "manual AA" skill (not sure how it's called now) which disables reinforcement sector (and I don't have doubloons to change it). Now it's quite garbage.

Farm cpt exp to reset it. 

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Just now, Yoshanai said:

Farm cpt exp to reset it. 

I could. But with all these changes I wonder why for.
I barely play random battles anymore. I'm finding this game more and more pointless. The only reason I keep playing it is because I invested soo much time of my life on it (almost 4 years now) that the idea of quit "cold turkey" the game makes me cringe.
Yeah, it's a feeling which is quite hard to explain.

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Vor 1 Minute, Sargento_YO sagte:

I could. But with all these changes I wonder why for.
I barely play random battles anymore. I'm finding this game more and more pointless. The only reason I keep playing it is because I invested soo much time of my life on it (almost 4 years now) that the idea of quit "cold turkey" the game makes me cringe.
Yeah, it's a feeling which is quite hard to explain.

I mean you can just hop into a ship that's fun to play for you and farm the exp that way? And if there is nothing that's fun to you anymore then just take a break or something. No need to quit. 

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18 hours ago, Thracen said:

Wow, well thanks for taking the time to lay it out like that. At least it shortens my hunt for a solution. I'm amazed cruisers have been relegated to sub par AA, back in the day it was their selling point for many!

Well all of what the guys said is factually accurate. The BB's have the best raw AA, but they need it because they do not have the maneuverability to evade. cruisers can still be NEARLY untouchable provided they actively maneuver to avoid hits and remember to stack up their AA with another ship. :cap_old:

 

So what does all this mean in practice then? - Well, if in a Cruiser, you can maneuver to avoid hits, for this use full speed, mount rudder modules to enhance your steering, take full AA build and use it to best tactical effect.:cap_book: For example:

 

1) Make sure to stay near (3-4km) from a friendly ship you wish to aid with you AA, keep in mind in this mate NO-ONE is invulnerable, no matter the build (I think this is good BTW).:cap_rambo:

2) If in AA Cruiser, just rely on maneuver to avoid getting hit and assist the target ship with your AA. However, unless you are the target, do not use your DefAA or Catapult fighter. Save them for REAL panic situations, when you really need them. If you waste all of them for the first few attacks, you will be have none left later on, when you are the target. It will suck.:fish_boom:

3) If in a BB and the likely target of an air raid, make sure to stay close to another BB or a good AA Cruiser so you can benefit from their assistance.:Smile_hiding:

4) Read the minimap. You will likely be able to see well in advance, which ship the enemy CV will target (it will be the isolated one) and make sure it is not going to be you.:cap_look:

5) Do NOT just go in a straight line, trusting your AA to be able to handle it. It won't and you will suffer unnecessary damage (remember the "no-one is untouchable rule, I mentioned earlier) for no good reason. Any target, which is moving in predictable line is easy to hi and will soon be dead, so don't be that guy.:cap_wander_2:

6) If in a DD, USE your AA, if it is turned off a sudden burst of last minute AA will throw off the enemy's aim off the track and you might escape without massive damage. Wiggle like hell, so enemy ship targeting you will not hit either. It is not always necessary to use your smoke to do this if you maneuver and get close to your own side's strong AA ships to chase them off.:Smile_glasses:

7) If the attacker is a rocket plane, head towards it full speed, use boost if you have one, and at the last minute turn either left or right and most or all of their rockets will miss. If this is not possible, try the same while going directly way from them BUT never show them you side. Always straight towards or away. This will give them a smaller target and make it more difficult to aim.:Smile_playing:

8) Same rule applied to torpedo planes, except, you should no turn but keep going directly towards or away from them. You cannot dodge torps sideways, but if they are launched directly at you bow it is relatively easy to got between torps, even in a BB.:Smile_great:

9) If attacked by dive bombers, never go directly towards them, they will have longer aim and will hit you. Alway sdow your side, because your beam width is certainly always less than your ship length and so they have more difficulty aiming at it and greater chance to miss. Remember, planes have 3 ammo for each attack, so once the first one is over, if the planes stay on, they will attack again so keep turning. Drive in a circle, if you have to.:Smile-_tongue:

10) Teamwork man. It'll save you a*ss and sometimes you'll just have to contribute and save someone else's. That'll solve all these problems easy.:cap_like:

 

For starters, try all these and you'll be just fine lad. Well, most of the time anyways. :Smile_trollface: I'm sure I missed some tips but the guys might be able to fill in on those. :Smile_Default:

Meisters @El2aZeR and @Excavatus my fiend... A humanitarian mission here pls? This lad clearly needs HEPL! All of it is survivable, let's just tell him how.:Smile_honoring:

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Yoshanai said:

I mean you can just hop into a ship that's fun to play for you and farm the exp that way? And if there is nothing that's fun to you anymore then just take a break or something. No need to quit. 

Thats the problem, most of the ships which were fun to play were nerfed to ground.
I used to play Zuiho, Ryujo and Kaga, just because they were fun to play with. Zuiho was removed. CV rework it's thrash (cvs are useless and boring). Kaga... I can't use her in conjunction with planes (I used to play cvs as battle carriers). I can't use Kaga in Narai anymore (I had ALOT of fun using her cannons here)

After the rework I used to play Kirov with full aa build (lots of low tier cvs which meant alot of planes to shoot down) after the latest rework where aa was nerfed. I used to play my Akizuki in the same way as well.

Yeah, I still play for fun. But for me that fun it's mostly limited to operations and some co-op.

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1 hour ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Because striking a cruiser for half his health in a single attack with no counterplay options on his part is funny I suppose?

EXACTLY! lets go back to RTS era and AP bomb them for full HP! I remember those DMs with defAA on had much counterplay against left-click-delete back then.

good ol' times, good ol' times

 

#restoreGZglory

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1 hour ago, Floofz said:

Let me educate you then. If you make a ship immune to striking you make it immune to damage from said class. What then happens if its the end of the game and its the CV and a ship of that class left? Is it supposed to be an auto win for said ship? No, no ship should ever under any circumstances be immune to damage from another ship.

Then you for some reason decided to bring up the damage output that some CVs have, mainly the high tier IJN lines AP bombs. Ive stated before that I think they do too much damage. I do not however see how this is relevant to the discussion about a completely different topic, hence why I said what I said. Just because high AA counterplay is bad doesnt mean its suddenly okay because AP bombs does too much damage, what about the ships that doesnt have that damage output? like the RN line? 

 

CVs already claim the top spot by a huge margin in:

- spotting

- utility

- range

- survivability

among other things. And now you demand that their damage potential gets the top spot by default as well since it is not allowed to be shut down?

And you want to educate me lol.

 

Also who said anything about AP bombs? Torps, rockets and HE bombs can easily do unavoidable crippling damage as well.

 

11 minutes ago, RAYvenMP said:

EXACTLY! lets go back to RTS era and AP bomb them for full HP! I remember those DMs with defAA on had much counterplay against left-click-delete back then.

good ol' times, good ol' times

 

1. A reworked CV armed with AP bombs kills a DM just as fast as an RTS CV armed with AP bombs would oneshot it.

2. No one said anything about returning to RTS, or, even if that were the case, have the broken RTS AP bombs make a return as well.

3. Unless you didn't have AFT + AA range or mismanaged DFAA wiping out those DBs before they can drop was a formality at best. As such "git gud" applies here ironically enough unlike against reworked CVs where you have no options whatsoever.

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Not noticed any difference really with priority, and then after first drop they attack other side anyway, so waste of time.

 

Also, have ships with Anti air booster - seems to do, literally, crap all difference.

 

Spec your ship for AA but means nothing. They'll get at least 1, possibly 2 drops off, so it's a bit moot skill in my opinion and they regen planes. Most planes I shoot down are post  drop, so...

Personally, spec for other builds and hope they carriers attack someone else - it's more useful that way as going full on AA when it may be 25% of your games is just plain retarded when it seemingly makes little difference.

 

Specing into stuff *because* you may meet carrier indicates balance issues. Kinda like IFHE is just 1 4 point skill, but to try and reduce the HE spam damage with fires you need to expend about 10. Great. 

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