Question about the Marceau model ?

[StalkerSoC]

Well, Hello.
First I wanna thanks Wargaming devs, ships designers and staff for their great job.
So, I am French, and obviously, I like French ships a lot, but I really can't understand the choice of giving T10 destroyer Marceau this AA setup.
We just got the release of the full french destroyer line, and I can only see that Marceau isn't following the rules, and I would like an explanation.
So, let's see :

- Mogador get a fictionnal refit, with 2 57mm/60 ACAD Modèle 1951, meaning that this ship, launched in 1939, would have received a refit in 1951+. I am okay with that, makes sense, the plateform was quite good.
- Kléber, get 4 57mm/60 ACAD Modèle 1951, meaning that this ship was launched in 1951+, so we can agree that this is the norm for both high tier French destroyer, and almost all high tier minus Saint-Louis and Alsace

Meanwhile, Marceau, gets the 127mm/54 modèle 1948, which was put in service after 1951 (in 1955 on Escorteur d'escadre Surcouf), doesn't get the 57mm/60 ACAD Modèle 1951, which would have been in service at that time.

So my question is : Why is Marceau equipped with 40mm/56 Bofors and 20mm Oerlikon MK20 when both those guns were worthless in 1955, and better options were available (57mm/60 ACAD Modèle 1951) ?

[Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu]

11 hours ago, StalkerSoC said:

So my question is : Why is Marceau equipped with 40mm/56 Bofors and 20mm Oerlikon MK20 when both those guns were worthless in 1955, and better options were available (57mm/60 ACAD Modèle 1951) ?

Klebers AA suite;

2x 57mm ACAD: 15 damage every 0.29s = ~51.7 DPS

x4 mounts = ~210 DPS

Total: 210 DPS

 

Short/Mid/Long

Range: 0/3.8/0

DPS: 210/210/0

Flak: none

 

Marceaus AA suits;

2x 20mm mk20: 4 damage every 0.29s = ~13.7 DPS

x4 mounts = ~56 DPS

4x 40mm Bofor: 10 damage every 0.29s = ~34.4 DPS

x3 mounts = ~103 DPS

2x 40mm Bofor: 5 damage every 0.29s = ~17.2 DPS

x2 mounts = ~35 DPS

2x 127mm/54 Mod '48: 6 damage every 0.29s = ~21 DPS

x4 mounts = ~84 DPS

Total: 278 DPS

 

Short/Mid/Long

Range: 2/3.5/6

DPS: 278/194/56

Flak: 4 clouds doing 1680 damage

 

If Marceaus theoretical AA suite was more like Kleber, and she had mounted her 57mm ACADs instead of the 5 Bofors mounts (since these guns share the same location on the hull) she would gain a net total AA DPS of 72 and her medium AA aura would extend by 300m. Although as standard her AA DPS would only increase to 350 DPS at most, when you consider that should could further increase this by 50% with DFAA and 35% with reinforcement (if she doesnt take MFAA) she can put out an incredible 708 DPS. Her current spec allows her to achieve 562 DPS and she has flak, both of which make her AA a substantial improvement over Klebers AA. Personally, I see no issue with her AA DPS if she had the 57mm ACADs from a balance perspective.

 

From a historical perspective, there is no reason Marceau would not have the 57mm ACAD mounts instead, though they mounted 57mm Bofors instead of the 40mm Bofors found on Marceau the ACAD mount itself was an automated system with a built in radar director that could track targets without manual intervention, a very interesting turret that you would definitely expect to see on an AA destroyer such as Marceau (and French AA vessels such as Colbert) should she have existed.

[Fat_Maniac]

5 hours ago, Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu said:

If Marceaus theoretical AA suite was more like Kleber, and she had mounted her 57mm ACADs instead of the 5 Bofors mounts (since these guns share the same location on the hull) she would gain a net total AA DPS of 72 and her medium AA aura would extend by 300m. Although as standard her AA DPS would only increase to 350 DPS at most, when you consider that should could further increase this by 50% with DFAA and 35% with reinforcement (if she doesnt take MFAA) she can put out an incredible 708 DPS. Her current spec allows her to achieve 562 DPS and she has flak, both of which make her AA a substantial improvement over Klebers AA. Personally, I see no issue with her AA DPS if she had the 57mm ACADs from a balance perspective

Unless WG have changed it, this is not necessarily the case. There was no correlation between a given mount and it's DPS across multiple ships.

Back in May this post https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/192541-continuous-aa-dps-explained/ showed that the same mounts on different ships were given different DPS values ...

 

 It seems the values for rate of fire and damage are based on not only which guns are used by how many.  Here's an example of four tier 8 American ships, all using 127mm/38s, 40mm Bofors and 20mm Oerlikons. 

127mm/38s - 5.8km to 3.5km

• Kidd:  340 damage every 3.91 seconds
• Cleveland:  440 damage ever 3.33 seconds
• North Carolina: 440 damage every 2.44 seconds
• Enterprise: 420 damage every 4.14 seconds

40mm Bofors - 3.5km to 1.5km

• Kidd: 210 damage every 1.54 seconds.
• Cleveland: 210 damage every 0.88 seconds
• North Carolina: 220 damage every 0.59 seconds
• Enterprise: 210 damage every 0.57 seconds

20mm Oerlikons - 1.5km to 0.1km

• Kidd: 110 damage every 0.73 seconds
• Cleveland: 150 damage every 0.28 seconds
• North Carolina: 140 damage every 0.32 seconds
• Enterprise: 180 damage every 0.26 seconds

 

... If it has changed to be consistent then that is a really good thing.

 

But I agree with @StalkerSoC Marceau should from a purely historical point of view, be brought in as per her design, not some hybrid thought up by WG.

[Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu]

On 10/11/2019 at 9:30 AM, Fat_Maniac said:

Unless WG have changed it, this is not necessarily the case. There was no correlation between a given mount and it's DPS across multiple ships. 

You are of course correct that I cannot just assume the guns will perform the same, however I must address that some of your information is also out of date.

 

Since the patch that both focused all AA damage on the lead plane of a squadron and "smoothed out" the way continuous AA damage is dealt, all guns now deal an amount of damage every 0.29 second regardless of their calibre. However, although a lot of similar AA guns are now extremely similar in performance, they are not the same. Some of this could be justified by the difference in AA mount, for example, although the 4 US examples all use 127mm/38 guns for AA, the Kidd uses them in a Mk30 mod 0 mount, the Cleveland and NoCar in the Mk 32 mount and Enterprise in the Mk 24 mount. But, the story is still not so simple.

 

Even looking at incredibly similar sisters, like North Carolina, Alabama and Massachusetts. North Carolinas 15x4 40mm Bofors Mk2 do 389 DPS, but Massas 15x4 40mm Bofors Mk2 (the exact same set up) do 392 DPS. Alabamas 12x4 40mm Bofors Mk2 do 312 DPS. Although incredibly similar all, this still works out as Massa doing 26.13 DPS per mount, Bama doing 26 DPS per mount exactly and NoCar doing 25.93 DPS. A difference of ~0.8%, but an inconsistency nonetheless. I'll also mention here that the T5 premium Texas does 28 per mount, T7 premium California does 26 per mount, T9 Georgia does 25.81, Iowa does 25.42, Montana does 25.4 and Ohio does 25.2. All of these ships are equipped with the 4x 40mm Bofors Mk2 and the higher tier you go the less DPS they do each. Ohio and Texas both have 10 of these mounts, but Texas does 280 DPS and Ohio does just 252. And this is after WG also changed aircraft to have less HP difference between tier 4 and tier 10, to reduce the AA descrepancy between diferent tiers.

 

However, I assumed that even if the performance of the same gun between two ships of the same nation, class and tier varied by less than 1% it would be safe enough to assume they might not vary at all. Though the 1951 ACAD exists on various ships ingame at the moment;

 

Colbert ACAD 42.4 DPS each

Henri IV ACAD 43.75 DPS each

Jean Bart ACAD 40.7 DPS each

Mogador ACAD 59.5 DPS each

Kleber ACAD 52.5 DPS each

 

Hence I based my theoretical DPS estimate off Marceaus ACADs having the same performance as Klebers (and mounting only 4 of them as Kleber does in place of the 5 mounts for 40mm Bofors). They could just as easily replace the bofor guns with ACAD mounts and not increase the AA performance at all, making the change purely aesthetic.

[Fat_Maniac]

11 minutes ago, Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu said:

You are of course correct that I cannot just assume the guns will perform the same, however I must address that some of your information is also out of date.

 

Since the patch that both focused all AA damage on the lead plane of a squadron and "smoothed out" the way continuous AA damage is dealt, all guns now deal an amount of damage every 0.29 second regardless of their calibre. However, although a lot of similar AA guns are now extremely similar in performance, they are not the same. Some of this could be justified by the different in AA mount, for example, although the 4 US examples all use 127mm/38 guns for AA, the Kidd uses them in a Mk30 mod 0 mount, the Cleveland and NoCar in the Mk 32 mount and Enterprise in the Mk 24 mount. But, the story is still not so simple.

 

Even looking at incredibly similar sisters, like North Carolina, Alabama and Massachusetts. North Carolinas 15x4 40mm Bofors Mk2 do 389 DPS, but Massas 15x4 49mm Bofors Mk2 (the exact same set up) do 392 DPS. Alabamas 12x4 40mm Bofors Mk2 do 312 DPS. Although incredibly similar all, this still works out as Massa doing 26.13 DPS per mount, Bama doing 26 DPS per mount exactly and NoCar doing 25.93 DPS. A difference of ~0.8%, but an inconsistency nonetheless. I'll also mention here that the T6 premium Texas does 28 per mount, T7 premium California does 26 per mount, T9 Georgia does 25.81, Iowa does 25.42, Montana does 25.4 and Ohio does 25.2. All of these ships are equipped with the 4x 40mm Bofors Mk2 and the higher tier you go the less DPS they do each. Ohio and Texas both have 10 of these mounts, but Texas does 280 DPS and Ohio does just 252. And this is after WG also changed aircraft to have less HP difference between tier 4 and tier 10, to reduce the AA descrepancy between diferent tiers.

 

However, I assumed that even if the performance of the same gun between two ships of the same nation, class and tier varied by less than 1% it would be safe enough to assume they might not vary at all. Though the 1951 ACAD exists on various ships ingame at the moment;

 

Colbert ACAD 42.4 DPS each

Henri IV ACAD 43.75 DPS each

Jean Bart ACAD 40.7 DPS each

Mogador ACAD 59.5 DPS each

Kleber ACAD 52.5 DPS each

 

Hence I based my theoretical DPS estimate off Marceaus ACADs having the same performance as Klebers (and mounting only 4 of them as Kleber does in place of the 5 mounts for 40mm Bofors). They could just as easily replace the bofor guns with ACAD mounts and not increase the AA performance at all, making the change purely aesthetic.

That's good to read. It seems WG are making efforts to standardize AA.

 

One edit you need to make sorry. Texas is a T5 premium. You know someone will jump on it if you don't  

[Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu]

2 minutes ago, Fat_Maniac said:

That's good to read. It seems WG are making efforts to standardize AA.

 

One edit you need to make sorry. Texas is a T5 premium. You know someone will jump on it if you don't  

Ah, thank you.

[MrConway]

On 10/10/2019 at 5:50 PM, StalkerSoC said:

Well, Hello.
First I wanna thanks Wargaming devs, ships designers and staff for their great job.
So, I am French, and obviously, I like French ships a lot, but I really can't understand the choice of giving T10 destroyer Marceau this AA setup.
We just got the release of the full french destroyer line, and I can only see that Marceau isn't following the rules, and I would like an explanation.
So, let's see :

- Mogador get a fictionnal refit, with 2 57mm/60 ACAD Modèle 1951, meaning that this ship, launched in 1939, would have received a refit in 1951+. I am okay with that, makes sense, the plateform was quite good.
- Kléber, get 4 57mm/60 ACAD Modèle 1951, meaning that this ship was launched in 1951+, so we can agree that this is the norm for both high tier French destroyer, and almost all high tier minus Saint-Louis and Alsace

Meanwhile, Marceau, gets the 127mm/54 modèle 1948, which was put in service after 1951 (in 1955 on Escorteur d'escadre Surcouf), doesn't get the 57mm/60 ACAD Modèle 1951, which would have been in service at that time.

So my question is : Why is Marceau equipped with 40mm/56 Bofors and 20mm Oerlikon MK20 when both those guns were worthless in 1955, and better options were available (57mm/60 ACAD Modèle 1951) ?

 

Marceau, jut like Kleber in-game are "what-if" ships that were never built.

 

When designing them we decided to implement them at different refit stages with Marceau being in a theoretical "1948" state, which is why she does not have the upgraded AA guns.