RTS vs Rework - Saipan

[El2aZeR]

Alrighty, you know the drill. Same parameters as the last experiment quite literally except with a Saipan this time.

If you don't know what last time was, read here:

https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/topic/122388-comparison-rts-vs-reworked-cvs/

 

RTS

First strike: 1 min 22 seconds (note that this is not much faster than Enterprise despite a two tier difference in plane speed)

First kill: 1 min 58 seconds (flooding)

2nd kill: 4 mins 5 seconds (flooding)

3rd kill and total duration: 6 mins 5 seconds (flooding, again not much faster than Enterprise)

Spoiler

 

Rework

First strike: 34 seconds

First kill: 2 mins 1 second (alpha strike)

2nd kill: 3 mins 24 seconds (alpha strike)

3rd kill and total duration: 4 mins 40 seconds (alpha strike)

Spoiler

 

And before you bugger me about "lol no AA" again, I still can't/don't know how to enable active bots in the CN training room. But I'll reiterate that the rework indisputably has the advantage here in any real match scenario so it is a bit of a moot point.

Also to preempt any whining about reworked Saipan's low reserves and how you'll get deplaned if you strike targets with so much AA, reworked Saipan gets 33 strike reserves without respawning anything while RTS Saipan has a fixed 24. If we were to take respawning planes into account reworked Saipan gets ~60 maximum, exactly 2 1/2 times more aircraft than her predecessor (although the theoretical maximum is unattainable, a more realistic number would probably be around 54, still more than twice the reserves RTS Saipan gets).

 

On 8/15/2019 at 2:31 AM, El2aZeR said:

So yeah, whenever you see someone claim "reWoRkEd CVs aRe mUcH wEaKeR nOw", call bull on it.

 

[_DemonGuard_]

At least their rework concept of shifting the CVs from an alpha strike class to a class more focused on damage over time worked out well...oh wait.

[rnat]

4 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

(alpha strike)

I dunno if i would use this term with the new CVs (with maybe the exception of IJN/Enty DBs) due to the different nature of strike v. dot in the new concept.

In the RTS system the term made a lot of sense since you came in with all (if needed) your TB/USN DB squads to maximise dmg v. AA losses and travel+interception time

As compared to deliberately going for permanent flooding or multiple permanent fires when you know the alpha is insufficient or there is no time to spare for rotating the aircraft.

So there was a distinction in the method in a particular strike.

In the new system it's less of an alpha strike and more of a.. well strike since AA mostly ceased to exist (unless you're a scrub like me ^^)

and a strike against a low-AA target (i.e. multiple approaches) can take about as much time as the time to target whereas fire/floods is more of a nice to have/freebie.

[Lieut_Gruber]

4 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

I still can't/don't know how to enable active bots in the CN training room.

Cant you find 12 volunteers who do a training game with you? Then activate AA, and go drink coffee.

[loppantorkel]

You won 90% of your Saipan solo games pre-rework @El2aZeR . (Whenever a player ended up on the opposite side of your Saipan - he had a 10% chance of winning that game (if he was lucky enough to see you playing a solo game). Fun and engaging...)Cvs may not be a lot weaker, but their influence in Random games post rework seems to be slightly lower.

[Yanayuki]

While I do appreciate your efforts, you need to take into consideration that most of the time Saipan will have to face TX AA. Let me see your Alpha Strikes when your options are going for a Montana, Worcester, Des Moines, Minotaur and the likes. Because I doubt you will get much of your "alpha strike" actually through before your squad just melts.

 

Oh and edit: 250K damage operations in Independence or Ryujo are no more. Now you got the Ranger instead of Indi, but you will always have less impact in the game by doing one magnitude of damage less.

[Isoruku_Yamamoto]

The Saipan is currently in a lretty bad spot among tier 8 carriers. It works fine in tier 8 battles, but in tier X battles you rush through planes like crazy.

In addition, DoT effects are largely worthless since theyll be repaired 90% of time. 

 

Edit: the strike potential on saipan is pretty okay though, but you need low AA battles for it to work well

[mtm78]

7 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

Cvs may not be a lot weaker, but their influence in Random games post rework seems to be slightly lowered.

 

Are you sure, or just repeating what WG claims? Because it sure as hell does not feel like this to me. Also, skill gap seems even bigger.

 

edit: it's btw funny to the same old same old people reacting negatively against any post which points out flaws in rework ( not you @loppantorkel the one's finding OP boring or even 'bad' )

 

 

[loppantorkel]

1 minute ago, mtm78 said:

 

Are you sure, or just repeating what WG claims? Because it sure as hell does not feel like this to me. Also, skill gap seems even bigger.

It varies from patch to patch. The influence of cvs have risen again lately imo, but not to the level pre-rework. I think they'll continue to balance cvs vs AA and spotting continually. With subs incoming, dds role might be adjusted too.

[mtm78]

I won't play against submarines, would suck having me as DD in your team ;)

 

CV's are just as influential in hands of good player, late game cleanup has never been so easy ( victim perspective here, but meh ). 

[loppantorkel]

1 minute ago, mtm78 said:

CV's are just as influential in hands of good player, late game cleanup has never been so easy ( victim perspective here, but meh ). 

Yea, the late game problem needs some attention, I agree. They should cap planes or lessen the respawn.

[CptBarney]

14 minutes ago, Yanayuki said:

While I do appreciate your efforts, you need to take into consideration that most of the time Saipan will have to face TX AA. Let me see your Alpha Strikes when your options are going for a Montana, Worcester, Des Moines, Minotaur and the likes. Because I doubt you will get much of your "alpha strike" actually through before your squad just melts.

 

Oh and edit: 250K damage operations in Independence or Ryujo are no more. Now you got the Ranger instead of Indi, but you will always have less impact in the game by doing one magnitude of damage less.

Thing is with reeework you can actually strike those ships. In rts mode unless their AA has been stripped good luck lol. Even gearing with DFAA could melt squads.

[beercrazy]

personally I find they have more of a influence due to being able to harass dds so much

I will always go dd hunting till I either kill them or shove them back to their own team so our dds can cap with ease

 

still prefer the rework when I am in a normal ship but I was never a fan of rts cvs anyway

[loppantorkel]

23 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

edit: it's btw funny to the same old same old people reacting negatively against any post which points out flaws in rework ( not you @loppantorkel the one's finding OP boring or even 'bad' )

I don't mind El2azer pointing out flaws in the rework. He's got plenty of insights that I have no clue of. From my own experience, playing bbs/cls/cas/dds I still find cvs to be an issue and often something that lessen the enjoyment of the games. I won't play Ranked games if cvs are in (not anymore), it's just too broken, rework or not. However, just by experience or looking at the stats of El2azer, it seems like the chance of upsetting a superunicum or a unicum cv player is slightly  easier now than before. The game isn't lost at start to the same extent.

[Cambera_1]

Having just reset a line with the Research Bureau, I would be very interested to see a similar comparison with regards to the current Hosho.

 

Currently these seem to have a very significant advantage at T3-5.

Far more than the Langley or Hermes.

[El2aZeR]

1 hour ago, rnat said:

I dunno if i would use this term with the new CVs

 

Alpha strike was just the cause of death of the target.

Which means the rework holds an even bigger edge than shown in the numbers as DoT is 100% healable while alpha is not.

 

1 hour ago, loppantorkel said:

You won 90% of your Saipan solo games pre-rework @El2aZeR .

 

Over 50 matches. Hardly the most representative number of matches, no?

But hey, I'm also winning ~90% of my Enterprise matches since 0.8.7 so there is that.

 

1 hour ago, Yanayuki said:

While I do appreciate your efforts, you need to take into consideration that most of the time Saipan will have to face TX AA. Let me see your Alpha Strikes when your options are going for a Montana, Worcester, Des Moines, Minotaur and the likes.

 

1 hour ago, Isoruku_Yamamoto said:

The Saipan is currently in a lretty bad spot among tier 8 carriers. It works fine in tier 8 battles, but in tier X battles you rush through planes like crazy.

 

Go head over to the CV Discussion thread where I posted a screen of a Yorck, a KGV and a Musashi completely annihilating my RTS Saipan squads without DFAA or them even being close together.

It is actually laughable how weak AA now is in comparison, so by all means I see no reason to complain.

 

Also funnily enough reworked Saipan has similar alpha per attack even purely on paper, giving the damage advantage thoroughly to the rework in any realistic match scenario as outlined above.

[1MajorKoenig]

1 hour ago, mtm78 said:

 

Are you sure, or just repeating what WG claims? Because it sure as hell does not feel like this to me. Also, skill gap seems even bigger.

 

edit: it's btw funny to the same old same old people reacting negatively against any post which points out flaws in rework ( not you @loppantorkel the one's finding OP boring or even 'bad' )

 

 

 

Thing is we are going in circles. This becomes a dead horse and if you followed the CV discussion thread it’s essentially only four people repeating the same discussion for 300 of the 400 pages.

 

I don’t think anyone claims the CV rework is perfect but still fighting for the RTS to return after 10 month is getting long in the teeth. 

 

I like the constructive posts from OP really much and he is always up for a good argument but I honestly don’t see how these RTS comparisons are supposed to help here and what they are for really.

 

Instead constructive suggestions for improvements for all players would be interesting to see from the old CV guys. 

 

On topic: we know that in the absence of service times the rework CVs can strike early in battle 

[rnat]

21 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Alpha strike was just the cause of death of the target.

Which means the rework holds an even bigger edge than shown in the numbers as DoT is 100% healable while alpha is not.

I understood what you meant by it.

My point was just that alpha-strike imo doesn't really apply properly as an expression anymore due to the reasons i outlined.

Then again we use loads of legacy terms everywhere and it's just my opinion anyways. ^^

[El2aZeR]

13 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

I like the constructive posts from OP really much and he is always up for a good argument but I honestly don’t see how these RTS comparisons are supposed to help here and what they are for really.

 

1. Correcting the common misconception and outright lie that reworked CVs deal less damage than RTS ones.

2. Simply proving that if the RTS iteration was broken, then the rework must also be considered so.

 

13 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

Instead constructive suggestions for improvements for all players would be interesting to see from the old CV guys.

 

It is pretty much universally agreed among us that the rework cannot be saved as its core concept is flawed to the extreme.

Why? Having only one squad means that this one squad has to deal damage, otherwise reworked CVs are useless. If reworked CVs have to deal damage then there must be no counterplay.

Therefore reworked CVs can only either be broken or useless. No balance can be found because the very core design of the rework prevents it.

 

Thus there is only one constructive suggestion to give: Scrap the rework and go back to the drawing board. Whether that means a return to the RTS gameplay or something new entirely doesn't matter, it literally cannot be worse than the pile of burning garbage that is the rework as it already represents the lowest point game design and balance can go.

[mcboernester]

Saipan needs a buff :( 

[Sub_Human]

22 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

It is actually laughable how weak AA now is in comparison

Jupp, I have removed all AA modules even from Kidd. Its annoing how much coal I have to spend to buy engine boost modules to ships that didnt need them before.

 

Btw do you think Enterprise just joined the elusive Belfast, Kaze, Gioulio etc club?

[El2aZeR]

2 minutes ago, Systergummi said:

Btw do you think Enterprise just joined the elusive Belfast, Kaze, Gioulio etc club?

 

It has been pretty much confirmed by WG, yes.

[Cambera_1]

2 minutes ago, Systergummi said:

Btw do you think Enterprise just joined the elusive Belfast, Kaze, Gioulio etc club?

On stream, Crysantos stated that they had no current plans to bring Enterprise back to the store. The same phrase was used in the same stream for the Belfast.

 

Beaten by @El2aZeR

[CptBarney]

27 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

Thing is we are going in circles. This becomes a dead horse and if you followed the CV discussion thread it’s ease only four people repeating the same discussion for 300 of the 400 pages.

 

I don’t think anyone claims the CV rework is perfect but still fighting for the RTS to return after 10 month is getting long in the teeth. 

 

I like the constructive posts from OP really much and he is always up for a good argument but I honestly don’t see how these RTS comparisons are supposed to help here and what they are for really.

 

Instead constructive suggestions for improvements for all players would be interesting to see from the old CV guys. 

 

On topic: we know that in the absence of service times the rework CVs can strike early in battle 

Wargaming ignored any and all constructive feedback from Vet CV players awhile ago and for sometime, if they cared so much these suggestions would of been acted apon. Except the devs obviously didn't like being told how to fix stuff and so decided to make their own version.

 

This is just another example of why the reeework has failed.

 

The only alternative is to scrap the whole thing and start again.

 

It reminded me of the AW forums when loads of players gave some very good suggestions and my.com gave everyone the finger and just made a poor version of world of tanks and removed most if not all of the story based elements (untill later for buying and time gated pressure events) and focused on pumping out reskins and prem tanks, adding little to the overall game, and because of poor player retention and well the playerbase itself they decided splitting the playerbase into multiple sections was a gud idea.

 

Im not surprised they closed the forums down.

[ForlornSailor]

1 hour ago, loppantorkel said:

It varies from patch to patch. The influence of cvs have risen again lately imo, but not to the level pre-rework. I think they'll continue to balance cvs vs AA and spotting continually. With subs incoming, dds role might be adjusted too.

 

My view on this topic: The reasons, why maybe it is not possible to pull those extremly crazy winrates (althought the best are close to it) are the following:

- Its easier to control your planes now. Only yesterday I learned, that some people in RTS controlled all their squads entirely by mouse... omg. This makes the CVs more accessable and easy to play.

- The impact of CVs has risen. Even a CV noob these days provides a lot of spotting compared to old RTS CV mode. Reasons for that: old RTS mode, they had all squads in one place (if using all squads at all) so they passed the map every few minutes. Also, the enemy CV, if a strong player, just harvested the planes from the sky, effectivly also denying spotting. Now, a unicum CV players means of denying spotting to the enemy CV(s) are limited. If balancing is giving all CVs ultimate spotting capabilites without counter meassure then.... to me its a HUGE gain in influence.

 

So, these things will lower the winning chances of the unicum CV when facing a worse CV. But those are changes, that made CVs stronger and gave them more influence overall. And before anyone wants to argue about those points, claiming im wrong, I have a challenge for you: Play 10 games T4 with a french DD. then play 10 games T4 with a cruiser like Karlsruhe. As in this week. Please do this before you argue about the points. Im sure you will not have fun and you will experiance the helplessness when you are spotted all the time. Its often not even the CV that will harvest you but glorious masterrace that can rule the low tiers togehter with their new best friend, the CV. Should be obvious what class im refering to as masterrace.