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vonduus

reply to a comment made by mr. conway on twitch

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Hi all! A few weeks ago, Mr, Conway said in a stream on twitch, that low tiers are meant as a playground for newbies. But this makes no sense!

 

Newbies already have the benefit of a  certain grace period, 100 battles, I think (???) before they are let out among the seal clubbers. After this period, where they probably struggle to learn the basic mechanics, they are supposed to learn how to think tactically, by playing against opposing players who are better than them. Learning by mistake and loosing to better players is the only way to get better, imho!

 

In the US WoT community the "Kewei" method of learning was often mentioned on the forums back in the day: Kewei was (is) a unicorn, who bought a tier VIII tank and learned to play in this tank, before he undertook the grand grind from tier I through tier X. His argument from so doing was, that in the higher tiers you are immediately punished when you make a mistake, and therefore you learn faster, and in the low tiers you can get bad habits, because you are NOT punished for applying inferior tactics. Also, it is harder to unlearn a bad habit than not having it in the first place.

 

Same argument applies to WoWs.  In the low tiers you can get away with a lot of bad practices, which then make advancement to the higher tiers a pita, because you have to unlearn a lot of bad habits (been there, done that). So instead of discouraging high tier players to avoid low tiers, the mission system ought to provide at least some incitements for us old players to also play low tier battles.

 

And in fact there IS such an incitement already: I own a lot of funny little premium ships in tiers II-IV, which I love to play, but I almost never play them, because they almost never partake in the missions and grinds and all the marathons that provides all the extra little gifts and grand prices, that we players love. And the new research mission thingie is also supposedly meant to make us play lower tiers, but we do not get research points before tier VI, so why not just spend some free xp and bypass the grind from tier II to tier V? Why play low tiers, when all the gifts are on tier VI and higher?

 

My suggestion is: Wargaming should think about creating mission for tier II-IV also. In WoWp there is a mission system, where you are supposed to reach certain goals in low tiers, mid tiers as well as high tiers, to earn the "big" price (in the form of something called "tokens"). For certain grand prices (high tier planes) you still have to play tier IV or higher, but the daily missions are for all tiers. Why not introduce something like this in WoWs? 

 

Let me ask in another way: Why do you sell us so many funny small low tier premium ships, when we are not supposed to play them? Having a mission system with some low tier support would give us an incitement to not just buy them and letting them collect rust in our ports, but actually having fun by playing them.

 

And as I already argued: The seal clubber argument doesn't cut it, as it only helps promote bad habits and subsequently a lot of whining in chat over the MM when players reach higher tiers. If new players learn early on not to make so many mistakes, maybe they would have a little more courage, when the going gets tough in the higher tiers.

 

vonDuus

 

PS On another note: The twitch drop system is  a source of frustration - it is not transparent if you get a drop or not, sometimes you do and sometimes you don't, but nowhere it says how and why I get my drop - or not. This could be made a lot more transparent, I hope.

 

PPS Keep up the good work, Mr. Conway (and Crysantos), I enjoy wathing your streams on thursdays in between battles :-).

Edited by vonduus
typo

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If you punish new players on lowtiers, you might aswell club them out of the game. Since you dont have to invest anything to play WoWs, having an unfun experience right at the start of the game will make you quit the game instead of learning it.

The example you are using, thats like <1% of the playerbase who actually would make such an approach work. The others will either derp around forever (blaming everyone but themselves) or just quit the game out of frustration. The problem is, you dont have to learn anything, its a game. If you dont like it, dont play it.

People could learn basics playing midtiers T4-6(7). And if they would get it right, go on to hightiers. But WG likes to throw them right into T8 asap. Either with premiums, or making the grind very easy with Premium acc and all those signals we have now. It used to take MANY MORE battles to grind through T7-8-9. Now people can do those in like 40-50 battles total. Which is rediculous, you wont even learn how to play a specific ship, unless you are a very good player to begin with and have the knowledge too. Or just buy your way up the tiers, even worse.

 

This system results in frustration for everyone:

The player itself because he just keeps dieing in hightiers without doing anything, and his teammates, because they have to fight harder to compensate his lack of skill.

 

Average players with 1-2k games have no business playing T8+. They need to be kept in midtiers to l2p, better even if they would be forced to play different classes aswell.

In a loss, you should not gain any XP - period. That way, those [edited]40% losers would need to play their ship over and over till they get it. And no FreeXPing / buying through the tiers either.

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[DUBO]
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I generally agree with your misgivings, DFens_666, I also find it frustrating to loose a game just because my co-players don't know what is up and down on a map. But nevertheless, I manage to keep my winrate on the right side of 51-52%,  even on sundays, not because I am a very good player, I am just a little better than the majority. And don't underestimate the noobs, especially in wot I have been killed quite a lot by some tankdrivers, that did something so incredibly stupid, that I hadn't planned for it, and therefore ended up dead. This is the reason I prefer on--line gaming: Humans are unpredictable, as opposed to machine thinking. It is this unpredictability, that keeps the games fresh.

 

My suggestion is to give us some small incentives also in the low tiers, because I actually like to play all those crazy little ships down there, but I almost never play them, because I am always busy with some grind in the higher tiers. And as you say, there are plenty of noobs also in the high tiers, so the seal clubber counterargument doesn't really make any sense anyway.

 

Statistically, the noobs will be distributed evenly on the two teams, so the only significant difference in the long run is me (or you, in your games). I have learned, that attitude is central - if I am annoyed or angry, I make stupid decisions, so I generally ignore stupid play from my teammates and focus on stupid play from the opponents. And I never forget, that sometimes I can still make very stupid mistakes, even after more than 20.000 games.. There is a reason that I am not a unicum ;-) 

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Just to clarify the new player protected matchmaking lasts until they reach account level 12 after 70 battles, or until playing with their first tier 5 ship. You need to be matched with at least one other human player at the same tier and class within 60 seconds. After 60 seconds you will enter the general queue (even at T1).

 

Daily Missions and Challenges are also unlocked after 70 battles.

 

Random Battles are unlocked at level 3 (5 battles), so in theory you can be a new player and buy a Derpitz to play with the big boys, and get instantly punished.

 

Weirdly, Scenarios are not unlocked until level 8 (35 battles) so you can't buy a T6 and play with your friends until then.

1 hour ago, vonduus said:

My suggestion is: Wargaming should think about creating mission for tier II-IV also. In WoWp there is a mission system, where you are supposed to reach certain goals in low tiers, mid tiers as well as high tiers, to earn the "big" price (in the form of something called "tokens"). For certain grand prices (high tier planes) you still have to play tier IV or higher, but the daily missions are for all tiers. Why not introduce something like this in WoWs? 

That has been suggested before, and I think it's a very good suggestion because rational players will always respond positively to incentives offered, and it would help populate lower tiers without (as has been explained) impacting on genuine new players who are playing in their own safe space.

 

Case in point: the recent Mikapocalypse.

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32 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

Average players with 1-2k games have no business playing T8+. They need to be kept in midtiers to l2p, better even if they would be forced to play different classes aswell.

In a loss, you should not gain any XP - period. That way, those [edited]40% losers would need to play their ship over and over till they get it. And no FreeXPing / buying through the tiers either.

 

Sadly I think this is the new norm :( I see players with a few hundred battles having multiple tier X's, and unless it's a (proper) reroll it's most likely 40% wr on them is already being to optmistic. 

 

While, how many people do you see 'doing it right' asking questions going slowly up the lines when advised to do so? It fills me with joy when I see it happen, but it doesn't happen nearly often enough. 

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[WGP2W]
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It is always okay to play a few tiers above your level, as long as you understand what is happening. 
 

Can you imagine that most players don’t want to understand what is happening? They just wanna do pew pew or blame the game. Oh, so many radar. I am scared.

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29 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

 

Sadly I think this is the new norm :( I see players with a few hundred battles having multiple tier X's, and unless it's a (proper) reroll it's most likely 40% wr on them is already being to optmistic. 

 

While, how many people do you see 'doing it right' asking questions going slowly up the lines when advised to do so? It fills me with joy when I see it happen, but it doesn't happen nearly often enough. 

  HAHAHAHA_MUH_TEAM.thumb.png.350abb43fd1c1e9bb74ced592a1f904f.png

 

T9 game from today (not my game), all friendly teammates ofc.

Sums it up nicely i guess?

3 people with bought premiums, CV with <40% WR, and the others basicly havent learned anything even with 11k games :cap_like:

 

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Alpha Tester
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I'll repeat we need a new reaction emote, one which displays disappointment. 

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Vor 3 Stunden, vonduus sagte:

Hi all! A few weeks ago, Mr, Conway said in a stream on twitch, that low tiers are meant as a playground for newbies. But this makes no sense!

 

Newbies already have the benefit of a  certain grace period, 100 battles, I think (???) before they are let out among the seal clubbers. After this period, where they probably struggle to learn the basic mechanics, they are supposed to learn how to think tactically, by playing against opposing players who are better than them.

 

Once again it's Wargaming bigotism, same as with Ranked. Their official representative officially says the low tiers are meant as a "kindergarten" to learn the ropes but what Wargaming actually does is allow the odds to be needlessly stacked against new players.

 

If they were actually serious about new player protection, and the low tiers being a learning experience, they would at the very least limit the number of commander skill points instead of allowing seal clubbers not only to bring their superior knowledge but also bring their maxed out commanders. They might even make skill point redistribution free of charge down there, to encourage players to experiment. Which would be, you know, fun & engaging.

 

And of course they would not flood those tiers with aircraft carriers and turn them into risk free noob blapping tools amongst a herd of Tier III ships with no or next-to-no AA.

 

So it's all just bad PR.

 

Vor 3 Stunden, DFens_666 sagte:

Since you dont have to invest anything to play WoWs, having an unfun experience right at the start of the game will make you quit the game instead of learning it.

 

Of course they invest something:

Their time, spent on WG's servers.

It's the most valuable resource anybody owns, and its exploitation is a fundamental part of WG's business model. They could not exist without F2P players.

 

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[TOXIC]
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4 hours ago, vonduus said:

In the US WoT community the "Kewei" method of learning was often mentioned on the forums back in the day: Kewei was (is) a unicorn, who bought a tier VIII tank and learned to play in this tank, before he undertook the grand grind from tier I through tier X. His argument from so doing was, that in the higher tiers you are immediately punished when you make a mistake, and therefore you learn faster, and in the low tiers you can get bad habits, because you are NOT punished for applying inferior tactics. Also, it is harder to unlearn a bad habit than not having it in the first place.

 

Same argument applies to WoWs.  In the low tiers you can get away with a lot of bad practices, which then make advancement to the higher tiers a pita, because you have to unlearn a lot of bad habits (been there, done that). So instead of discouraging high tier players to avoid low tiers, the mission system ought to provide at least some incitements for us old players to also play low tier battles.

I won't comment on WoT - it's been a long time since I played that and I always sucked - but in WoWs your reasoning has a very, VERY significant flaw. You see, a new player thrown into high tier battles is almost guaranteed to pick up a lot of bad habits. You see, it's certainly true that in high tiers mistakes are immediately punished. But here's a small issue you miss: mistakes are punished mostly when you're playing offensively. The more defensively you play, the less (or at least less immediately) you'll be punished. And guess what's likely to bring an immediate improvement to a completely new player:

1. Trying to apply decent tactics that might make sense but have no chance of being executed well enough when the player is in the midst of learning how to aim guns and steer the ship in the first place, forget having brainpower to spare on advanced stuff like basic situational awareness; not to mention that (compared to old players) you're likely sailing an inferior ship, not benefiting from high-point captain build (that one can't be outright bought even if you're a well armed wallet warrior)

2. Switching to super-defensive tactics where you basically camp in the back and take long-range shots at targets of opportunity, usually missing every shell but still likely surviving for more than half of the battle

 

Well, I guess there's the third option: assume that you're going to die right away and just yolo to go out guns blazing and repeat the process with another ship. Either way, the point is: being thrown into too hostile of an environment, surrounded by better and more experienced players, gives you a lot of really bad and really hard to eradicate habits - because the first thing you learn in such an environment is "if I get closer, I die". So you either stop getting closer or you accept swift death as inevitable - because these are the only two things in your reach with newbie skills where basic controls are your challenge and "situational awareness" sounds like an arcane chant to summon a demon.

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[DUBO]
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eliastion, you are right, I get your point, but it is not only in high tiers that you learn to be (too) careful, I remember back on tier III when I thought the way to play was to stay in the background and snipe in my DD, and let the others take all the hits. But then I saw, that I was always last on the list of ranks after battle, because I made no serious contribution to the game. At the same time I had realised, that beyond tier IV the ships are quite expensive, and I would have to do some serious grinding, if I ever wanted to reach tier X - unless I found the sweet spot between being aggressive and being too aggresive, where I actually could make som xp and credits without dying within three minutes every f'cking time. 

 

This is still the spot, I am trying to stay in - for the most part my personal mistake still is, that I am too aggressive (because the other players are too defensive, so I feel that I must do something to get things rolling - but this is really just a bad excuse, because the only person to blame for me being too aggressive is me).

 

I will iterate: My intention was not to start a discussion about the general state of player skills, but to advocate for rewards to players playing low tiers. My counterargument to the sealclubber argument is, that there are noobs all over the game, and that you can feel like a sealclubber even on tier X, so all talk about a "safe space"  for newbies in low tiers are ridiculous. this should pave the way for realising my suggestion about having some prizes on the low tiers also. 

 

It is obvious to me as a green player around 52% win rate, who ocassionally dabble a short time as a blue player, before I fail myself back to green - but almost never goes yellow, and it is a very long time since I was red as a tomato - that any single battle is  very much determined by who you are in team with, who is on the opposing team, and if the RNG-goddess likes you today or not. How the MM picks the ships has next to no impact on the results of the game,  compared with these factors (except of course, that people who are afraid of high tier ships will let their fear influence their gaming in a negative way - which is good, if the whiner is on the opposing team). Your true level cannot be measured before you have played thousands of battles. 

 

I have played thousand of battles, and I must now live with the fact, that I am quite mediocre, skill wise - I will probably never ever be purple as a unicum. But then I really don't care. I play to have fun, and having fun actually includes winning at least half the time. Of course I want to win, every battle, but knowing that even the best of us loses up to 40% of our battles shows imo that if you cannot cope with loosing, then this is not a game for you. 

 

And remember, all you unicorns - without noobs, you would not be unicorns - every game you win means that some sucker somewhere has lost ;-). Compared to DFens_666 and his 64 % wr I am  just a noob,  but compared to the red hot tomatoes I am a quite decent player with my 52%. I really don't care if other players suck, as long as I have fun and win most of the time on average. What I care about are all the whiners, who have no idea about statistics, and who whines and blames the team every time they get sunk.  But then sometimes I just disable chat, this solves the problem.

 

tldr: My agenda is to convince wargaming, that there ought to be missions and prizes also on low tiers, because there are a lot of funny ships on these tiers, that I never play, because all the missions are for mid and high tier. I agree that a lot of players suck (including myself from time to time), but this was not what I wanted to discuss.

 

:-)

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Maybe once you have a certain number of battles you are barred from playing tier 3 or lower unless you play in particular ships. How about Mikasa as the battleship, Albany as the cruiser and either Smith or Tachibana as the destroyer.

To be honest, this type of scenario should also be true for steel ships. They have to be interesting but challenging to play - maybe give them double XP or credits - but make them weak in at least one way. Then a good player faces a real challenge. The same should really go for Premium ships - great rewards but a flaw that only by playing well can you survive and reap the rewards.

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7 hours ago, vonduus said:

A few weeks ago, Mr, Conway said in a stream on twitch, that low tiers are meant as a playground for newbies.

 

Just shows how much - or how little - WG staff knows about their own game ^^

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[L4GG]
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bad habits...

How about spending three tiers broadsiding the opposition?

And then...

the opposite happens.

IMHO low tiers are made for catching bad habits.

 

Perhaps making two separate tech trees? One for WWI and the other for WWII?

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