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MadBadDave

Why are DD's so poor these days.

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First and foremost, the level of players now in this game is the lowest it has ever been.  Lets start with that.  In ALL classes. 

 

But it's a mix of a few things:

 

1) Complete lack of team-play with other classes

2) CL DD's instead of cap con-testers

3) CV's

4) Radar

5) Fast firing HE spammers with low detention CL you come across.

6) Zero map awareness

7) Better gimmick wins

 

The ones I see personally die quickly are those DD's that arnt designed to cap but they do it anyway.  Either though pressure for your team because you arnt getting any caps or because they don't understand the type of DD they are using. Whoever has the better gimmick normally wins regarding cap contesting. Then it's the CV problem, being spotted before you get close to the cap. Too many HE spammers that can strip your health off quickly when spotted. 

 

DD's are the most important class IMHO. There is alot of pressure on them now, ALOT!

 

You feel it more when you lose a DD than say a cruiser or BB. 

 

Iit's not just DD players, it's all players.  Each one has a part to play in any given game and it's when people don't work as a team is the reason you lose. 

 

I always want the best players in my team to be DD players. But i understand, as i am also one, how hard it can be.

 

So they are all bad, in any class, it's just you feel it more when you lose a DD. 

 

I have always thought the BB's attract the worst players and they can keep them.  Cruiser captain have to wise up quickly or it becomes boring very fast being blown up all the while and DD's are hit and miss.  You either get really good ones or simply awful ones. 

 

But it's the hardest class to play, by far.  So lets ease off them slightly. 

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2 minutes ago, Redcap375 said:

The ones I see personally die quickly are those DD's that arnt designed to cap but they do it anyway.  Either though pressure for your team because you arnt getting any caps or because they don't understand the type of DD they are using.

 

The problem is even more complex than that imo. Once mm throws 2 or even 3 DDs, that are not made for contesting caps, on one side, while the other gets 3 super stealty IJN DDs or cap bully like german DDs, then you are kinda forced to try something. Point 1on your list, which is sadly very true, doesnt help in those games. Its one of the reasons why I dont like to take out my Kiew. But its sort of bad design, WG watering down the borders between classes. Thats why I criticise the so called battle cruisers stomping in the territory of normal cruisers. Same goes for DDs, since WG recently seems to be incapable of designing a classic, interesting and balanced DD without gimmicks. Whats the last DD that would fit this description? Serious question and I need to think hard...

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1 minute ago, ForlornSailor said:

The problem is even more complex than that imo. Once mm throws 2 or even 3 DDs, that are not made for contesting caps, on one side, while the other gets 3 super stealty IJN DDs or cap bully like german DDs, then you are kinda forced to try something. Point 1on your list, which is sadly very true, doesnt help in those games. Its one of the reasons why I dont like to take out my Kiew. But its sort of bad design, WG watering down the borders between classes. Thats why I criticise the so called battle cruisers stomping in the territory of normal cruisers. Same goes for DDs, since WG recently seems to be incapable of designing a classic, interesting and balanced DD without gimmicks. Whats the last DD that would fit this description? Serious question and I need to think hard...

 

Completely agree, 100%.

 

But it's the players choice what kinda DD they wanna play.  They have to take the responsibly of picking that said DD! Because people will expect it to act like a DD and to an extent they are right. It's a bloody DD so go and cap and win us this game. DD's are so important to spot right? How many bloody kaba's or Frie do you see further back then the actual cruisers? :Smile_facepalm:

 

I dread seeing something like a Harra, Kaba and Frie in my team! It fills me with dread because i know that the game will end on points before they can finish damage farming.  All whilst 2 darings are having a laugh grabbing the caps.

 

If they pick a Kaba or Kiew or something like that, they know they wont be contesting that caps which in turn isnt helping the team.

 

My personal opinion, just to get it out and not hiding anything, is that I hate these DD/CL HE spammers. The Kaba, Harra, Frie, Klab.  To me, they use up a valuable dedicated DD space. 

 

I don't want another light cruiser, i want a DD that can cap, spot and sneak around.

 

 

 

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WG had completely and utterly screwed up all the classes and their capabilities. Cruisers acting like BB's, BB's acting like Cruisers, DD's acting like Cruisers. :cap_haloween:

 

No wonder why even veteran players haven't got a clue what is going on anymore.

 

So how on god green earth can we expect it of "Casual" players.

 

The more ships WG push out (which they are at a staggering rate, premiums) the worse it will get. 

 

Serious Question:

Should they create new lines? I have beat the drum on this so a while now.

 

1) Supercrusiers/Battlecrusiers

2) Destroyer leaders

 

Or at least something to visually show new players what kind of cruiser/DD it is and how they behave?

 

It would also provide a CAP on these ships so you don't get too many of one class in a game. 

 

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9 minutes ago, Redcap375 said:

How many bloody kaba's or Frie do you see further back then the actual cruisers? :Smile_facepalm:

  

I dread seeing something like a Harra, Kaba and Frie in my team! It fills me with dread because i know that the game will end on points before they can finish damage farming.  All whilst 2 darings are having a laugh grabbing the caps

 

Ive seen numerous khabas getting caps... always on the enemy team tho :cap_haloween: Russian/French DDs on my team, being only DD and you ask them to get an empty cap "[edited]NOOB, I CANT CAP, NOOB l2p IM A GUNBOAT!!!"

 

And the DD i fear the most on my team? Shimakaze... They bring destruction to my team when they are on the opposite side. But my shimas like to openwater gunboat enemy GKs :fish_palm:

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34 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

The problem is even more complex than that imo. Once mm throws 2 or even 3 DDs, that are not made for contesting caps, on one side, while the other gets 3 super stealty IJN DDs or cap bully like german DDs, then you are kinda forced to try something. Point 1on your list, which is sadly very true, doesnt help in those games. Its one of the reasons why I dont like to take out my Kiew. But its sort of bad design, WG watering down the borders between classes. Thats why I criticise the so called battle cruisers stomping in the territory of normal cruisers. Same goes for DDs, since WG recently seems to be incapable of designing a classic, interesting and balanced DD without gimmicks. Whats the last DD that would fit this description? Serious question and I need to think hard...

Last balanced line of DD’s would be RN DD’s. 

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39 minutes ago, Quetak said:

this guy is exceptionally good as CV player, im lucky that im not meeting him, he can ruin my theory :Smile_teethhappy: 

 

It's also dangerous for me to use his opinion as base for arguments since he is clearly suffering from reverse Dunning Kruger effect :Smile_hiding:

 

40 minutes ago, Quetak said:

It depends, do you want to have a chance to flak hit or have better chance to avoid strike completelly or at least dont get full hit for 8k. If I know that CV is going for me I always turn AA off/on when planes pass my air detection range and so far its somehow working.  

 

I do it to, mitigation is key ( and I'm slowly getting a bit better at it.. ). It's just that dps on most DD's is so insignificant in comparison with the respawn rate of planes. This makes destroyers such a favorite target especially for the bad/mediocre CV player which risks losing a lot of planes to flak when trying to attack battleships. You will take damage, and basically every time you're dodging rockets you're not playing the objectives. 

 

When I play a battleship I ignore CV's most of the game, as I can tank the hits better as risking exposing broadside. This also means I'm still actually actively playing the game, not 'dodge the mediocre player in his CV'. Only when surface threat is lesser mitigating CV's with maneuvering, aka playing mole in a whack-a-mole becomes a real thing. 

47 minutes ago, Quetak said:

that I should add...im playing mostly T7+ where two CVs in team are very rare. Not touching low tier ships, only thanks to research bureau I played few recently(FR cruisers+ pan asian DDs).

I feel more frustrated when im AP bombed by half HP in cruiser than as DD in CV game, cant remember CV game where I cant do anything as DD

I been playing up to tier 7 with my RN and FR DD's, and actually will not play anything which meet's the current tier 4 CV spam. Since I came back, my Jervis wr is exceptional even for me, but I must admit one of the reasons I'm concentrating on that line and not my French DD's is the RN smoke. I feel I can have so much more influence with a DD when I have ways to avoid detection other then just 'not be where the planes are'. 

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1 hour ago, Redcap375 said:

I don't want another light cruiser, i want a DD that can cap, spot and sneak around.

/me jumps in Asasshio :Smile_teethhappy:

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3 hours ago, Europizza said:

You wrote that If you were Kagero (and in the example the OP gave it was FULL HP) and you faced three enemy ships (2 BB and 1 cruiser) only with 1 BB (Roma) as support you would also run away too. Which is a statement that answers the question in the title: Why are DD's so poor these days.

 

If you think that sailing in a full HP kagero in such a situation means you can't do anything of value to help your struggeling BB, you are a perfect example of how a DD can be played very poorly in that situation. Running away accomplishes nothing, unless you are trying to run the clock with a serious points advantage or can win by a ninja capping contest. Other then that, it's the worst decision you can make.

 

You have a stealth advantage, you have a size advantage (hard to hit at range), you have torpedos, even if they are 7 or 8 km, you have smoke, you have pretty decent guns, you have FULL HP and you are one of the most dangerous alpha strike threats to the enemy BB's. Even if you are out of smoke and are reloading torpedoes, you can still harass the enemy ships at your max range to try distract their focus on your BB teammate and make them fire on you which you can try to tank by evading incoming damage and go off grid temporarily when it gets too hot. It's not 100% success guaranteed, but it's a better option then running away and let your last teammate rot.

But, you are missing the one crucial factor or ignoring what I pointed out earlier..

 

The OP did not give the names of the opposing ships..

 

Again, just for you..

 

For example, let's say:

 

If the sole Crusier is a Radar equipped Cruiser, if one of the two Battleships is Missouri... I surely don't need to paint you a picture do I? 

 

Regardless of their combined health pool.. The 5.4km concealment counts for nothing if you are radar spotted.....

 

I also clearly stated, if the enemy ships contained NO RADAR then the Kagero he spoke of did a poor job.

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13 minutes ago, Migantium_Mashum said:

But, you are missing the one crucial factor or ignoring what I pointed out earlier..

 

The OP did not give the names of the opposing ships..

 

Again, just for you..

 

For example, let's say:

 

If the sole Crusier is a Radar equipped Cruiser, if one of the two Battleships is Missouri... I surely don't need to paint you a picture do I? 

 

Regardless of their combined health pool.. The 5.4km concealment counts for nothing if you are radar spotted.....

 

I also clearly stated, if the enemy ships contained NO RADAR then the Kagero he spoke of did a poor job.

Assuming the worst in a random situation like this tells me you see problems more then opportunities in your dd here. Which tells me you are the kind of problem dd the OP is talking about, because more often then not you will run away assuming the worst.

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Vor 3 Stunden, Redcap375 sagte:

First and foremost, the level of players now in this game is the lowest it has ever been.  Lets start with that.  In ALL classes.

Another symptom that speaks against the hypothesis of the saturated market niche and the constant consistent player base.

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24 minutes ago, Europizza said:

Assuming the worst in a random situation like this tells me you see problems more then opportunities in your dd here. Which tells me you are the kind of problem dd the OP is talking about, because more often then not you will run away assuming the worst.

Do you actually look at what people write?

Given the OP gave NO details of the enemy ships any comment from a DD player has to assume the worst case scenario///

 

There are two points that I made.. and please go back, read again the very last statement I made...

 

 

 

I also clearly stated, if the enemy ships contained NO RADAR then the Kagero he spoke of did a poor job.

 

Now beyond that you're just waffling.....

 

 

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16 minutes ago, Migantium_Mashum said:

Do you actually look at what people write?

Given the OP gave NO details of the enemy ships any comment from a DD player has to assume the worst case scenario///

 

There are two points that I made.. and please go back, read again the very last statement I made...

 

 

 

I also clearly stated, if the enemy ships contained NO RADAR then the Kagero he spoke of did a poor job.

 

Now beyond that you're just waffling.....

 

 

Sure buddy. :fish_palm:

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3 hours ago, Redcap375 said:

First and foremost, the level of players now in this game is the lowest it has ever been.  Lets start with that.  In ALL classes. 

 

But it's a mix of a few things:

 

1) Complete lack of team-play with other classes

2) CL DD's instead of cap con-testers

3) CV's

4) Radar

5) Fast firing HE spammers with low detention CL you come across.

6) Zero map awareness

7) Better gimmick wins

 

The ones I see personally die quickly are those DD's that arnt designed to cap but they do it anyway.  Either though pressure for your team because you arnt getting any caps or because they don't understand the type of DD they are using. Whoever has the better gimmick normally wins regarding cap contesting. Then it's the CV problem, being spotted before you get close to the cap. Too many HE spammers that can strip your health off quickly when spotted. 

 

DD's are the most important class IMHO. There is alot of pressure on them now, ALOT!

 

You feel it more when you lose a DD than say a cruiser or BB. 

 

Iit's not just DD players, it's all players.  Each one has a part to play in any given game and it's when people don't work as a team is the reason you lose. 

 

I always want the best players in my team to be DD players. But i understand, as i am also one, how hard it can be.

 

So they are all bad, in any class, it's just you feel it more when you lose a DD. 

 

I have always thought the BB's attract the worst players and they can keep them.  Cruiser captain have to wise up quickly or it becomes boring very fast being blown up all the while and DD's are hit and miss.  You either get really good ones or simply awful ones. 

 

But it's the hardest class to play, by far.  So lets ease off them slightly. 

Yes it’s definitely the hardest class,  and cvs the easiest, hence the need for a proper training / progress centre.

 

Since my last post re the vacuum cleaner I came across yet another 4 DD’s of which 3 were in a division, I thought yep this is gonna be spesh, and yep it was one died quickly and the other 2 went their own way, and while I was fighting a Mahan and Amagi shirat sat behind me😔

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Now you should have many examples of bad DD play then. Could you please share us a replay so we can scrutinise their performance and maybe point out a thing or two which you might have missed?

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1 hour ago, Europizza said:

Sure buddy. :fish_palm:

 

First game of the day....

 

I give you KAGERO.

 

I was with Amagi and Scharnhorst to the end after capping A taking out Monarch with a full salvo.. from 14 to 20 minutes I had recapped B and using rpf or by spotting lit up every ship my consorts sank... (4 enemy ships in 5 minutes) we won by 122 points at 20 minutes.. We we the last ships alive at 14 minutes...

 

 

 

1386795045_Screenshot(610).thumb.png.4e84b6b9b700cf332c5f02ddadae73cb.png

280702507_Screenshot(611).thumb.png.22cf0c3e71d1fb7b40b6560eb49ff4e7.png

Screenshot (612).png

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5 hours ago, Bear_Necessities said:

Last balanced line of DD’s would be RN DD’s. 

Are you sure about that? :cap_tea:

 

Jutland and Daring are about as balanced as Kitakaze and Harugumo. According to stats, only the Kleber has better winrate and KDA than Daring across all player segments.

Smaller, more agile and about stealthy, they can easily kill the IJN sisters (or just about any DD) 1v1 with that 2s reload.

Hydro to stay safe from torps and single launch torps to slaughter BBs. Their only weakness is american arcs.

 

I dont think WG ever released a balanced line since vanilla launch, except maybe the 2nd Soviet line (Grozovoi and Ognevoi was crap and Udaloi already in the game)

 

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I don't agree that DDs are in a bad position in the game. The biggest issue with DDs is that it's hard to carry the game on its own, 2 salvos from BB and you are at the bottom of the virtual sea so if you don't have the support that will take heat from you, you can't do much.

 

So how many of you CV/BB players support DDs in their games?

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8 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

4-6 CVs per game.

I get that hating on CVs is par for the course, but can you tell me the last time you saw 3CVs per side? Because I don't think I've EVER seen 3-per-side. Even post-REEEwork.

7 hours ago, ForlornSailor said:

Its one of the reasons why I dont like to take out my Kiew.

I stopped equipping my Kiev with heal earlier this year because of a game where I got focused until death within the first 3minutes of a battle by two enemy CVs.

I considered changing back to heal the other day, but decided against it, not just because of CVs, but also because I remembered the times I've been able to use it when spotted in caps. Can't contest caps with just a heal.

I guess this is the main reason I'm not interested in playing the MN DDs, the lack of smoke just makes them super-vulnerable to being permaspotted and blasted into oblivion. I certainly know I have fun dicking on them in my CVs.:Smile_trollface:

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18 minutes ago, Captain_LOZFFVII said:

I get that hating on CVs is par for the course, but can you tell me the last time you saw 3CVs per side? Because I don't think I've EVER seen 3-per-side. Even post-REEEwork.

 

Can I have your luck please,  I last was in a 3 CV per side  battle last week and I have seen it a lot since the RE work although thankfully it is slowly getting less frequent. 

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35 minutes ago, Captain_LOZFFVII said:

I get that hating on CVs is par for the course, but can you tell me the last time you saw 3CVs per side? Because I don't think I've EVER seen 3-per-side. Even post-REEEwork.

 

shot-19_09.24_15_52.25-0428.thumb.jpg.82ee18e669e4600ee3c77cced79f49b8.jpg

 

Just one week ago... and must happen more often when i see the queue with more CVs than all other 3 classes combined :cap_fainting:

Such a joke aswell, RTS CVs on T4/5 had to get nerfed because of sealclubbing. Now we have totaly OP T4 CVs which wont ever get deplaned, and thats fine. :cap_old:

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Quote

Why are DD's so poor these days.

Cuz they play selfishly. The don't smoke their teammates. They don't read the map well. To summarize that:-

Edit*

 

Watch the language please

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On 10/1/2019 at 4:16 AM, ABED1984 said:

Cuz they play selfishly. The don't smoke their teammates. They don't read the map well. To summarize that:-

edit*

 

Since when do BB's have smoke? I agree with your assessment about skill, but I think you're mixing up your classes. 

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8 hours ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

Are you sure about that? :cap_tea:

 

Jutland and Daring are about as balanced as Kitakaze and Harugumo. According to stats, only the Kleber has better winrate and KDA than Daring across all player segments.

Smaller, more agile and about stealthy, they can easily kill the IJN sisters (or just about any DD) 1v1 with that 2s reload.

Hydro to stay safe from torps and single launch torps to slaughter BBs. Their only weakness is american arcs.

 

I dont think WG ever released a balanced line since vanilla launch, except maybe the 2nd Soviet line (Grozovoi and Ognevoi was crap and Udaloi already in the game)

 

Dunno, maybe I should return my Jutland because no way I can get 2s reload on her, even with gun reload mod as torps are mediocre. Also requirement of IFHE to not embarass myself when having DD aware how angling works, 34kts top speed and all I see is crappy Fletcher knockoff.

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