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MadBadDave

Why are DD's so poor these days.

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CV rework made DDs very hard to play successfully and coherently for several battles in a row if you understand what I mean. So I think that a lot of normal DD players are playing other classes more to try to wait out the balancing to do it´s job. For example I am although I manage to put a DD game in now and then. If you OP know what one should do in DD go play one you will win according to that logic if all other DD "are so poor these days".

 

For me it is not the bad DD players that break the game. It is the very bad BB players that infest the servers especially during weekends. They just turn away from the caps immediately in the beginning of the game bunch up around one island if they can find one far enough away from any caps or spotted enemy ships and sit there doing "something?". Some guys seem to not fire their guns at the enemy trying to stay hidden. It has always been like that but now it seems it has gotten worse. Some people are just straight up refusing to fight in a BB. Then they come telling that "all DDs go suicide" or "why are all DDs dead so useless noobs" when they themselves have no clue how to help around caps and tank damage and being a threat. From now on actually I must start to complement BB players for activity who push towards caps even if they die and are not making the "correct" play.

 

If you think that DD "job" is to cap caps and spot for others to shoot then it is the others "job" to protect that DD in anyway they can. Usually that includes firing your guns, going towards that DD position and - god forbid - getting shot at and taking damage. If you think that only DD has a "job" while you can scratch your balls with one hand going 1/2 speed towards the edge of the map without you having any "job" you sir are seriously mistaken and deserve those DDs who "are so poor these days".

 

As I have now ranted and vented I think that this thread is pointless, doesn´t bring anything valuable to the discussion and should be locked. :Smile_child:

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9 minutes ago, Bear_Necessities said:

No, you did NOT get what I said right. I said DD’s are fine. It’s that a LOT of idiots play them. Not all, coz I rock in DD’s, just a lot of players are idiots. You just seem to notice it more in DD’s and BB’s.

 

I´d like to question the judgement on this topic too. When I see 4 of my 5 BBs dead after 4 mins (the 5th beeing in my divison, else we might have 5 of 5 dead), because they rushed into an already spotted Asashio - then who is stupid? Adding to that: the Asashio didnt even have Last Stand, which doesnt help the verdict about the BB players intelligence.

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13 minutes ago, Bear_Necessities said:

You just seem to notice it more in DD’s and BB’s.

 

Probably because in Cruisers the chance of having a decent game is much smaller compared to DDs. I can only guess, that those idiot DDs must occasionally succeed with their stupidity. And we all know its easy to get decent games with BBs quite easily :Smile_smile:

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3 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 I can only guess, that those idiot DDs must occasionally succeed with their stupidity.

 

They play for win thus they think they played well every 2 games out of 5. The other 3 games out of the 5 were lost because the team was stupid and in their mind those games were unwinnable anyways.

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Another one, whats that 3,4,5 in a row, a grand total of 8 bb's between the 2 teams, 7 dead within 5 minutes, all 4 greens taken out faster than torp spamming by a Asashio.

 

I have no problem with asashio, as soon as it's spotted Manual secondaries are locked on, it cannot brawl or knife fight and is only reliant on it's torps,which have less of a range than my secondaries, as soon as they start firing I change tack.

 

Now this also raises the question is it the same players, which would also re-iterate my point, yes we all have bad games, but constantly ?. 

 

I've seen a John Bart sulk off into the corner and not fire once because a dd wasn't spotting for him, given that a lot of JB drivers now fire HE,are they the BMW's of the warship world ?, anyway I digress.

 

Bottom line DD standards have slipped, I blame MM and the CV rework, and given that most DD's now die within 5 mins driving around in a Sub will be as easy as taking HOSHO against Dreadnought.

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21 minutes ago, MadBadDave said:

Bottom line DD standards have slipped, I blame MM and the CV rework, and given that most DD's now die within 5 mins driving around in a Sub will be as easy as taking HOSHO against Dreadnought.

Because playerbase quality went to the drain years ago, now its somewhere on the bottom of the ocean I guess:Smile_smile: If you give destroyers means to "do damage" from afar, you will almost always find someone with that specific option *cough* 20km Shima *cough*

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Vor 23 Stunden, Capra76 sagte:

Let's turn the question around, if you're any good why would you want to play higher tier DD these days?

Because most DDs suck these days and it sucks more to play another type behind a sucky DD than just do it yourself. So out of pure self defense, really.

 

Also Asashio is my main cash cow, even though I have a Missouri. Which is especially important this patch, to unlock more Supercontainers.

 

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Because most DDs suck these days and it sucks more to play another type behind a sucky DD than just do it yourself. So out of pure self defense, really.

Most DD Players just learned, that you dont get backup anymore.. seeing 5 BB´s hiding behind 1 rock because of 1 enemy DD These days. Begin of Battle, Bb´s drive to Cards end, trying to Snipe and get wasted. out of 10 Games i got 7 Games, where BB Drivers get Sunk behind Rocks Camping there. Backup... no way.. fire on Radacruisers? no way.. it has to be easy Targets only or they dont hit....

Theese days DD´s really got lot of Problems with Radar and sonar and  Cv´s .. and ist really frustrating if you push give your Team smoke etc.. and all of a sudden BB tourns away to J line, [edited]that, let him get sunk, wont get a nother smoke from me. As Long as his Armor is full with 100k and dont gets a scratch on his hull all good for BB´s.. best is a Kreml hiding behind rocks..

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in any dd game i play ill say from the outset i will cap if im supported and also say if people dont push with me i will just come back and camp with them the rage that follows is always the same ''If you dont want to spot and cap then dont play dd and [edited] about it'' comment

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@MadBadDave If the Crusier was radar equipped, if one of the BB's was the Missouri of course you'd run or at least try to get out of radar range to figure your attack plan.

You see that's the problem, you have not identified the enemy ships, so I give you the reaction to the worst case scenario.. If the ships were standard then the Kagero clearly was not doing his job...

 

@Europizza as each situation is different and as @MadBadDave has not identified the enemy ships I commented on a possible worse case scenario.

 

So hand slap to face means what?

 

I do think I know what I am doing and talking about...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Screenshot (520).png

Screenshot (521).png

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Screenshot (597).png

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and these Screenshots Show what??

what typ of Tier are you plaing mostly, what Kind of ships, where you farmen up for a new ship or just cruising?? .. would be the same like ill post this...You got Bad and good Days, bad and good Teams.. but those stats dont tell all...



Unbenannt.thumb.PNG.aaec7036bf5d40de9121efd308e724c0.PNG

 

now was i playing?

 

t1.thumb.PNG.57a982602a1824aa9bc51a823fc939a2.PNG

 

 

 

or this???

 

 

t2.thumb.PNG.507c8790d47c777ad6aa6a6dc8cc6ed5.PNG

 

Ist stupid to go on stats anyways.. says jack because most people can´t even read those Reports..just seeing some numbers and saying good or bad.. 

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7 minutes ago, Speedymaus80 said:

Ist stupid to go on stats anyways.. says jack because most people can´t even read those Reports..just seeing some numbers and saying good or bad.. 

I agree with you but I have had so many people flame me because I don't have good stats in the past...

 

I play DD's from Tier 5 to Tier 10.

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I agree with you but I have so many people flame me because I don't have good stats in the past...

 

Then just dont care about it:)

 

The Most People dont even look at the stats on the botten, what Kind of Tier are you driving mostly, had People with aseome stats seen, drove mostly only Tier 2-6 and upper Tier had bad stats.. Is she a DD Driver, or more CA or BB Driver, what Kind of DD´s or BB´s shes good in or perform better than other ships, those stats just Shows, what Kind of ships you are good in, but there are more then 1 or 2 lines .. Wow´s got a lot of shiptrees now.. some are just farming up to have the set full, sometimes bad and sometimes good Battles. Your Dayli perfomance also Counts in it, but that doesnt mean you are bad.. it just Shows your streangh and weaknisses in the shiplines.. where you perform better where worse. where you can work on or where it is ok.

i wouldn go to much on those stats, These are just numbers and scale with the winrating to.. i can spot all the time with a dd and get a bad Rating, because i just spottet and did less damage so my Team gets the win..

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There is a lot of it's not me guv, you do get good and bad in all types of bote, I'm crap at cruisers,which is why I no longer play them, yet again another game,  a T7 French vacuum cleaner, I never saw him launch torps (full hp), firing wildly at a bb (45K HP), with a red 800 HP charles next to it, not scouting/spotting and firing behind green BB.

 

I could go on about this all night, giving examples of dire DD play, and some would still would say, Oh it's the BB Babies, or the hug an island cruisers, with subs coming soon how many "oh it's not the DD's fault", will change their mind, unless of course you're in a sub, PARTY TIME.

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We will see, with the Subs coming itl be fun, dd´s dont get Support from cruisers and bbs, but now dd not only Needs to spot and cap no he Needs to hunt Subs to.....and dont Forget the planes that´l Keep you open all the time :)

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Il y a 1 heure, oosel a dit :

in any dd game i play ill say from the outset i will cap if im supported and also say if people dont push with me i will just come back and camp with them the rage that follows is always the same ''If you dont want to spot and cap then dont play dd and [edited] about it'' comment 

got the same, even though I worded like this : "I'll spot cap and go if it's OK". I was in a IJN torp boat, not expecting to win a gunfight - as anyone with at least two brain cells should. But no hurr durrrr I "was going to pu$$y out". Now I don't speak anymore on chat - except when I am a BB and I state to the DD in front of me I'll go with him and provide AA cover, so that he knows in advance where to go if needed. I may be a bit salty, I still tend to provide help by chat.

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2 hours ago, Migantium_Mashum said:

 

@Europizza as each situation is different and as @MadBadDave has not identified the enemy ships I commented on a possible worse case scenario.

 

So hand slap to face means what?

 

I do think I know what I am doing and talking about...

 

You wrote that If you were Kagero (and in the example the OP gave it was FULL HP) and you faced three enemy ships (2 BB and 1 cruiser) only with 1 BB (Roma) as support you would also run away too. Which is a statement that answers the question in the title: Why are DD's so poor these days.

 

If you think that sailing in a full HP kagero in such a situation means you can't do anything of value to help your struggeling BB, you are a perfect example of how a DD can be played very poorly in that situation. Running away accomplishes nothing, unless you are trying to run the clock with a serious points advantage or can win by a ninja capping contest. Other then that, it's the worst decision you can make.

 

You have a stealth advantage, you have a size advantage (hard to hit at range), you have torpedos, even if they are 7 or 8 km, you have smoke, you have pretty decent guns, you have FULL HP and you are one of the most dangerous alpha strike threats to the enemy BB's. Even if you are out of smoke and are reloading torpedoes, you can still harass the enemy ships at your max range to try distract their focus on your BB teammate and make them fire on you which you can try to tank by evading incoming damage and go off grid temporarily when it gets too hot. It's not 100% success guaranteed, but it's a better option then running away and let your last teammate rot.

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on one hand DDs became little harder to play, but on other hand they shine much more than ever when played right. In last 3 months or so I have around 75%WR with DDs solo (recent is little ruined by learning Kleber), during August I was nearly at 90% by last 3 weeks stats. Even CVs arent so big problem when you know how to counter them by smoke/friendy cruisers/turning off and on AA on right time ect. While I was grinding CVs i was so suprised how many DDs cant use that turning AA off right, they get spotted on 5km because of AA and then they cry in chat about CVs. If DDs know that its much harder to rocket them to death...and they have smoke as last possibility. DDs have most duties in game, are most squishy and get focused the most. So bad DD player is revealed during first few minutes. In BB/CA its easier to hide bad play. Better DDs in your team are key to win in most games.        

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7 minutes ago, Quetak said:

on one hand DDs became little harder to play, but on other hand they shine much more than ever when played right. In last 3 months or so I have around 75%WR with DDs solo (recent is little ruined by learning Kleber), during August I was nearly at 90% by last 3 weeks stats. Even CVs arent so big problem when you know how to counter them by smoke/friendy cruisers/turning off and on AA on right time ect. While I was grinding CVs i was so suprised how many DDs cant use that turning AA off right, they get spotted on 5km because of AA and then they cry in chat about CVs. If DDs know that its much harder to rocket them to death...and they have smoke as last possibility. DDs have most duties in game, are most squishy and get focused the most. So bad DD player is revealed during first few minutes. In BB/CA its easier to hide bad play. Better DDs in your team are key to win in most games.        

 

I think it says a lot if even someone as good as you notices the skill requirements on DD's went up. 

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10 minutes ago, Quetak said:

Even CVs arent so big problem when you know how to counter them by smoke/friendy cruisers/turning off and on AA on right time ect.

How do you counter CVs with your french DDs? 

And a friendly cruiser can't help you versus a decent CV player. 

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44 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

 

I think it says a lot if even someone as good as you notices the skill requirements on DD's went up. 

but not so much, only big difference are rocket planes which werent existing in past. But still better than devastating torpedo crossdrop from good CV players. There is few more fast firing cruisers which you need to pay attention. Radars are there since forever so no complain there. 

39 minutes ago, Mr_CVed said:

How do you counter CVs with your french DDs? 

And a friendly cruiser can't help you versus a decent CV player. 

as French...just by your speed/dodge, nothing else you can do. But when you play french DD you are choosing to have bad air protection by your own - its their weakness... same as when you play gunKhaba.

 

Yes he can, most DDs have air spot around 2,5km thats very short time for CV to aim when he dont know where are you. After he spots you he usualy cant attack you right away, he need to turn around and try it on second run. And when there is cruiser near you planes go down. During planes turn they go usualy farther than your air spot range, so turn AA off again and you will go invisible - harder to aim for him again, go towards planes so you shorter his aim time as much as possible, try to be unpredictable, dont go straight line from last position even when he lose vision on you - easy to aim strike. In worst case smoke. 

 

I dont want to say that as DD you can outplay CV by 100%, just try to make it as hard as possible for him so he lose attraction to you or at least he waste 10mins on strinking one ship and rest of your team have peace time. 

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20 minutes ago, Quetak said:

Yes he can, most DDs have air spot around 2,5km thats very short time for CV to aim when he dont know where are you. After he spots you he usualy cant attack you right away, he need to turn around and try it on second run. And when there is cruiser near you planes go down. During planes turn they go usualy farther than your air spot range, so turn AA off again and you will go invisible - harder to aim for him again, go towards planes so you shorter his aim time as much as possible, try to be unpredictable, dont go straight line from last position even when he lose vision on you - easy to aim strike. In worst case smoke.   

 

Since the latest changes, it doesnt feel like that anymore. You can only dodge rockets if you go straight at them with full speed (that also usually means, full speed closer to the enemies). Because if you are not going at them, they can slow down and make turns since they removed/lowered the penalty while turning for planes.

Especially on low-midtiers this is super annoying with 4-6 CVs per game. If you are "lucky" they start grouping up on you, thats when the fun really starts (one spots, the other attacks then alternate and drop a few fighters on there....)

Hightiers feel easier, even if there are radar ships too...

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21 minutes ago, Quetak said:

but not so much, only big difference are rocket planes which werent existing in past. But still better than devastating torpedo crossdrop from good CV players. There is few more fast firing cruisers which you need to pay attention. Radars are there since forever so no complain there. 

 

I feel the rocket planes are way more influential as a cross drop needed a good CV player to execute. I don't even mind the CL's I think they mostly can be avoided and if not it's because your team is misplaying and you're likely to lose anyway. And radars are not the issue, the only problem I see is that influence of 'not good CV players' has gone up against destroyers. Adding to this is my notion that much more CV players are actually focusing DD's now, since it's easier for them to deal significant damage ( or because they have the least AA ). That is why I would like a distribution chart for damage from CV's before and after rework, just to confirm my perception.. 

 

25 minutes ago, Quetak said:

as French...just by your speed/dodge, nothing else you can do. But when you play french DD you are choosing to have bad air protection by your own - its their weakness... same as when you play gunKhaba.

I can do this on my tier 6 and 7 ( don't have others yet ) but when speedboost is off your mitigation abilities are far less.

 

26 minutes ago, Quetak said:

Yes he can, most DDs have air spot around 2,5km thats very short time for CV to aim when he dont know where are you. After he spots you he usualy cant attack you right away, he need to turn around and try it on second run.

Going from @El2aZeR this does prevent any flak from spawning tho as this depends on the distance of the plane squad ( won't spawn within 2.5km ). Not that DD's have a lot of flak.. I see btw more and more CV's actually working with their own DD's so they don't have to rely on air detection, in those scenario's mitigation becomes far less as during RTS as bad CV player in RTS wouldn't even bother as it's easier even for him to attack bigger surface ships. 

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14 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

Spotting IS rewarded with XP, maybe even with credits.

Get a game with over 100k spotting damage where you do not do much else and you notice it.

 

Screens of such a game (1 year old but the spotting 'rewards' didn't change):

 

Spoiler

shot-18_08.15_01_14.49-0492.thumb.jpg.8985f4376933e2a23d3dfd942cc03a1d.jpgshot-18_08.15_01_14.57-0705.thumb.jpg.bd53bb24aac04e6dde008656b5c19297.jpgshot-18_08.15_01_14.51-0676.thumb.jpg.883c94254c7800c93bedb13d9efa76e3.jpg

 

 

Only a bit of high-value damage to cruiser and DD, 160k spotting. So if you get 100 - 150 xp for this you'll get 300 xp for 300k spotting? Reward my aft.

 

 

Topic: It's easy to die fast in a DD, the playerbase is terrible and growing more terrible every day for 4 years now. Are you really surprised?

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8 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

Since the latest changes, it doesnt feel like that anymore. You can only dodge rockets if you go straight at them with full speed (that also usually means, full speed closer to the enemies). Because if you are not going at them, they can slow down and make turns since they removed/lowered the penalty while turning for planes.

Especially on low-midtiers this is super annoying with 4-6 CVs per game. If you are "lucky" they start grouping up on you, thats when the fun really starts (one spots, the other attacks then alternate and drop a few fighters on there....)

Hightiers feel easier, even if there are radar ships too...

that I should add...im playing mostly T7+ where two CVs in team are very rare. Not touching low tier ships, only thanks to research bureau I played few recently(FR cruisers+ pan asian DDs).

I feel more frustrated when im AP bombed by half HP in cruiser than as DD in CV game, cant remember CV game where I cant do anything as DD.  

 

4 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

Going from @El2aZeR this does prevent any flak from spawning tho as this depends on the distance of the plane squad ( won't spawn within 2.5km ). Not that DD's have a lot of flak..

this guy is exceptionally good as CV player, im lucky that im not meeting him, he can ruin my theory :Smile_teethhappy: 

It depends, do you want to have a chance to flak hit or have better chance to avoid strike completelly or at least dont get full hit for 8k. If I know that CV is going for me I always turn AA off/on when planes pass my air detection range and so far its somehow working.  

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