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MadBadDave

Why are DD's so poor these days.

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1 hour ago, Altsak said:

The problem is, spotting doesn't get rewarded by xp and credits.

I feel this is rather key: if one has all the time in the world, and are only playing for fun - i.e. to win - then spotting is a perfectly sensible thing to be doing (I do it pretty much reflexively, but that may be force of habit from WOT, where you do get rewarded for spotting).

 

That said, if you're short of time and/or have missions to do, then spotting is less viable (except incidentally).

 

I do wonder if 'typical' DD players might make more of an effort to do what we on here all know they should be doing if they were significantly rewarded for things besides damage.

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2 hours ago, Europizza said:

The new no cap mentality I can understand to some degree, but the zero spotting camping behind BB line DD's I see too often these days are doing me in. I just can't click my brain around those...

Sounds like the usual crop of BBabies has re-rolled as DD mains :Smile_facepalm:

 

Seriously if the mentality behind BBaby play is not to get their paint scratched, those DDs are probably doing the same because of the zillions of DD counters out there.

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9 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

I do wonder if 'typical' DD players might make more of an effort to do what we on here all know they should be doing if they were significantly rewarded for things besides damage.

Spotting i boring and should be secondary to flanking and fighting other DDs.  Sitting around doing nothing is boring. 

 

DDs survivability should get buffed as a class to compensate for the zillion of counters introduced over the years.

 

Torpedos in particular (flooding) got nerfed because of CVs, so buffing ship torps would be a good start

(100% chance to flood? Less detection across the board? Stealth torps invisible to hydro? [inb4 next gimmick:cap_haloween:])

 

 

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Because they need a HP buff and a speed buff.

And all around the nations they need their camouflage values redone.

No DD should be below 90 concealment and also make them immune to radar so cruisers can't click their I-win buttons and flush out a well hidden DD.

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47 minutes ago, mil71 said:

and also make them immune to radar so cruisers can't click their I-win buttons and flush out a well hidden DD. 

 

Yeah, those [edited]OP Cruisers, they ruin the game for everyone!

- Radar

- High DPM

- Fire

- Radar

- Hydro

- Armor which only gives overpens

- Strong AA

- DefAA

- Radar

- Agile

- Some can even Citadel BBs, HERESY :Smile_ohmy:

 

lets remove that [edited]cancer from the game!

 

Spoiler

/s :cap_old: Clearly, Cruisers arent getting shat on by almost everything...

 

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2 hours ago, Altsak said:

 

The problem is, spotting doesn't get rewarded by xp and credits.

Spotting IS rewarded with XP, maybe even with credits.

Get a game with over 100k spotting damage where you do not do much else and you notice it.

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Can’t believe I never paid attention or noticed this thread till now 😂

 

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with DD’s themselves. It’s just the player base is mostly made up of sub 50% WR players who just don’t have a clue and never will.

 

Case closed, and the same could be done with the thread as I can’t see it serving a purpose at all. Other than giving some space to vent a little steam.

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15 hours ago, valrond said:

there are a lot of bad (insert any class here) players that don't even know the basics of the class they are playing

on this topic i agree with you.

Usually you have to pass a test to be able to progress to next level (like a "boss-fight" in other games). In WG´s titles you don´t have to pass, you simply fail a few times and can go up. Which i can understand because otherwise we would wait to queue up for a TX-game a long time.

 

"You failed the test for driver´s license for the third time now. So, here you have your driver´s license, congrats!"

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7 hours ago, Europizza said:

The new no cap mentality I can understand to some degree, but the zero spotting camping behind BB line DD's I see too often these days are doing me in. I just can't click my brain around those...

"Don't rush out, stay with the CA/BB for AA protection"

 

That's what has been told to DD drivers over and over again during the entire REEEwork.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Bear_Necessities said:

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with DD’s themselves. It’s just the player base is mostly made up of sub 50% WR players who just don’t have a clue and never will.

 

So do I get this right: Only idiots play DDs now?

 

The money questions of course then are

 

A) Why only idiots play DDs?

and

B) What can we do to attract more non-idiots to playing DDs?

 

Solve that and this kind of threads don't anymore spontaneously emerge to the forums.

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39 minutes ago, Altsak said:

A) Why only idiots play DDs?

 

I reckon this has a lot to do with it:

Spoiler

tcNQsyI.jpg

eBzwdCH.jpg

 

:Smile_trollface:

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Another day, another Battle, same outcome; 4 green DD's dead within 8 mins, 4 reds alive at games end, and game lost; BB's unable to do anything other than avoid being torped.

 

Clearly there are some great DD players out there, but sadly few and far between.

 

WG do seriously need to "think" about something for a change, anybody that plays higher tiers, 8-10, should be competent, I myself got to T10 in brit cruisers way too quickly and was totally pants, only now my PR and WR are slowly picking up, I can imagine it's even more frustrating for a veteran WOWS player to be teamed up with half a team that sail broadside all the time, can't hit the target, rush off, don't look at the map and die within 5 minutes.

 

WG should have thought more about the research bureau, but then we are talking about the people behind CV's, MM, and non existent OP Russian ships.    Maybe something like a research and training centre, which like in most games you have to beat a level boss to progress, e.g until a T4 DD player has passed a certain amount of requirements they are not allowed to T5.

 

Such players do impact and effect the outcome, if your in a 2 vs 2 and your naive DD dies within 30 seconds you're immediately on the backfoot, at lower tiers you can get away with it, but if uptiered, as I often am, Shimi's and Benham's can make short work of Bismarck.

 

One question other than the infrequent and pointless post battle survey ;  have WG produced an in depth questionnaire ?.

 

MM, for me remains the biggest problem with the game; all other complaints like DD's, like Cv's, like high tier prems, like radar, etc,etc, can all be mitigated by PROPER MM, and personally I would rather wait 2-3 minutes to enter an all T8 battle, rather than 20 seconds to be uptiered to T10.    In a DD being uptiered is probably the hardest (better Cv's, radar, dakka rates go thru the roof, concealment  etc).    For me T9 ships seem pointless; as 9/10+ games will see T10's,  Neptune probably the worst brit cruiser, FDG not a big leap over BIsmarck, Fletcher good but Gearing (imho) a lot better, and better too face a Benson in a Gearing/Khaba but not for the Benson skipper ;-).

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8 hours ago, Verblonde said:

I feel this is rather key: if one has all the time in the world, and are only playing for fun - i.e. to win - then spotting is a perfectly sensible thing to be doing (I do it pretty much reflexively, but that may be force of habit from WOT, where you do get rewarded for spotting).

 

That said, if you're short of time and/or have missions to do, then spotting is less viable (except incidentally).

 

I do wonder if 'typical' DD players might make more of an effort to do what we on here all know they should be doing if they were significantly rewarded for things besides damage.

 

7 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

Spotting IS rewarded with XP, maybe even with credits.

Get a game with over 100k spotting damage where you do not do much else and you notice it.

These are good points both – maybe any gap between them can be bridged by saying players should be better informed that they are being rewarded? Even if that way is just making the spotting damage display bigger. Stick it on the front page of the results screen to give it more parity with damage dealt. It's a shame people don't just get a good feeling from having a big spotting number, but hey ho.

 

Tbh though, I haven't noticed DDs being noticeably worse than any other time over the last 2 years. Just maybe fewer of them.

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I have to ask:

 

Which ships are you most likely to find on the borders, neatly stacked behind Islands, sniping from some insane distances, refusing to hear the DD's cry about sinking ships like Des Moines, Alaska, Cleveland, Stalingrad....

I type in chat that Radar = Dead DD's and defeat... nobody kills radar and so inexperienced DD's die and the game is lost... I don't die because I don't take risks if my team do not support.

 

You moan at the so called 'Poor performance' of the DD player...are you giving your DD's the support they need?

 

If there is a CV in play, which over this weekend I found in almost 80% of my DD games, how can the DD survive long if perma spotted by the CV without the help of AA support... BB's have the health pool to deal with damage that the DD's do not, they have the AA to support and the big guns to sink the Cruisers...

 

Try playing a DD for a while and you WILL find the problem is not necessarily the DD... as with all classes there will be new DD captains a little rough at the edges.. why aren't YOU helping them?

 

I would suggest that all BB's should learn how to protect their DD consorts, Maybe the BB players should be willing to take a few hits for the team and NOT to expect the DD's to do all of the work.

 

 

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As a DD player I always request that radar ships be targeted first, normally this is totally ignored, and with some extent you are right DD's get zero support normally, but we both know more died rushing into the cap than because they had no support, I've just been in a game, reds were winning on points and had 1 more ship;  there was 3 vs 2 a  Roma and Kagero vs cruiser and 2 BB's, all except DD had low health,and were within 8km, given greens were losing and the Roma was taking fire, what did the FULL HP Kagero do; RAN, he did not fire his guns once = game lost on points, at least the DD had his full HP.

 

Once again I repeat POOR MATCHMAKING; At T7 RADAR IS VERY RARE,  so excuse for poor DD's at that level ?,  have you played T5/6 DD's recently ;-).

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4 hours ago, MAD_3R_Marauder said:

Don't rush out, stay with the CA/BB for AA protection"

 

That's what has been told to DD drivers over and over again during the entire REEEwork.

And its true. I was watching one of the short videos that Jingles puts before his main postings, with a T22 getting shot to bits by a CV in the first two minutes of the game and a sarky "Just Dodge" caption. I actually thought the DD driver got it all wrong. He saw planes coming, but didn't double back for CL cover, he didn't try and dodge at all, he tried to sit static in a cap with his AA on and didn't even smoke up until he'd lost half his health. 

 

But. Tier V Cruisers are squishy but they're less likely to get nuked on sight, so a DD player has a chance of support. The higher you go in the Tiers, the more reluctant all the other ships become to do that and DD spotting becomes more of a gamble... especially when DDs can only spot each other at sub 6k ranges, where knife fights are often brief and brutal. Hardly surprising that DDs often fail hard and fast. 

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22 minutes ago, MadBadDave said:

As a DD player I always request that radar ships be targeted first, normally this is totally ignored, and with some extent you are right DD's get zero support normally, but we both know more died rushing into the cap than because they had no support, I've just been in a game, reds were winning on points and had 1 more ship;  there was 3 vs 2 a  Roma and Kagero vs cruiser and 2 BB's, all except DD had low health,and were within 8km, given greens were losing and the Roma was taking fire, what did the FULL HP Kagero do; RAN, he did not fire his guns once = game lost on points, at least the DD had his full HP.

I have the Kagero, Tier 8 IJN for those who don't know.

Kagero does not have the biggest HP tally, wouldn't you agree, even with SE equipped?

 

What was the enemy Cruiser?

Was one of the BB's the Missouri?

 

Maybe the Kagero was running 6.4k torps at 81 knots... maybe he had no torpedoes ready to fire and as firing the puny guns would immediately mean detection....

What do you expect the guns of Kagero to do, seriously?

 

If I was Kagero faced with 3 enemy ships with only the Roma for support I would run too.

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If there's 1 type of player that makes me yell at my PC screen than that's your typical  BB-captain.

 

I rarely play BBs but in Scenarios I have to play one so there is at least 1 less cowardly BB-captain. For some reason they think that the Convoy ships are there to protect them as a buffer. Or that it is a great idea that the slowest US BB is the best ship to go after CV. And if you think they will intercept that CV  near the base than you're wrong. No.No. NO. The best place in the right upper corner of the map.  And you don't have to look up their stats to know they play mostly BBs. Because that's how they play Bbs in random. In the back behind everything.

 

BB captains... they will be the dead of me...and often they are.

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And another a Gadjah madah, which I have. 

 

Gadjah Mada   Gadjah Mada 7 Pan-Asia 22 68.18% 1 113 36 627

 

 

Very little radar in this game, but again a shrub, a green Gadjah, Hipper and BB on flank vs 1 dd, what did Gadjah do, smoke up and sat there, yes Gadjahs torps vs dd's are useless but the guns are fantastic at T7 and it has one of the best concealments at that Tier as well, GAME LOST, because instead of spotting and even attempting to knife fight, he hid in smoke.

33 minutes ago, Migantium_Mashum said:

If I was Kagero faced with 3 enemy ships with only the Roma for support I would run too.

 

With almost 10k battles I find it hard that you'd have ran, given you were losing and going to lose unless you did something to change that, so you'd never have fired your guns once in that situation, you'd have left Roma (who had killed 4) to face destruction, and confirm the loss, when being pro-active could have swung the play.

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I have to admit that reading through this thread was a long read.Being a DD main I endured it. And as I am on vacation, reading long reads on the porch looking at the sea is a nice pass time. I don't claim that what was written above is trash. Some valid points have been made. But it all was as if looking through the keyhole. You only see a fraction of the reality. You see what you see clearly, but it is only a slice.

 

Two more things I noticed:

1. "DD deride" (I m careful not to use the word "hate") threads pop up like mushrooms after the rain;

2. The New (after CVs) lets all blame them class is here. One round of applause for DDs and DD players.

 

My opinion

 

I think DDs (and DD players) are just like all the other classes. Equally good and equally bad. Equally stupid, potato, noob, just put your word of choice in.

 

And it is always the same story. One class is being blamed for ruining the game. The experience. The feeling. The Fun. Before some time, it was the CVs and the CV players. Or, the BB border hugging camping don't scratch my paint BBs. Or the HE spamming Cruisers that hide behind an island and shoot from impunity. Now it is the suicidal noob potato idiot in a DD. What a cardinal difference. Before it was a class of ships that was cancerous. Now it is a group of players considered moronic.

 

Nahhh, it is just fashion now to blame DDs. In a while we will blame someone else. Something will come in handy.

 

And then the same old question will pop up. Why players refuse to learn how to play?

 

What a vicious circle.

 

Truth of the matter is that not all players are good. We are not all the same. Period.

A bad player in any ship will perform badly. No matter what that ship is. So, what are we to do? 

 

Restrict bad players from playing DDs? We can't

Restrict bad players from playing DDs in Random and Ranked? Shaky.

 

It's like telling everybody that DDs are a class for superior players. Which it isn't.

 

Oh here you go. I got it. We will restrict bad players from playing all-together. Problem solved.

 

And don't start with the let's teach them how to play line. I was preaching this line, until, I realized you can't teach someone who is unwilling to learn. 

 

This is the gist of the matter.

 

We are not all equal in game performance. Some of us play the game better than others. When you play well and your team is equally good you enjoy more, win more, have more fun etc.When you play well and your team mates are bad you have a bad game and you carry if you can. If you play bad and your team mates are good you get carried.  End of story. 

 

How do you make sure that you always get a good team to play with?

You don't.

 

It is Random.

 

Have a nice day

Saltface

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Spoiler

/me points to topic title

43 minutes ago, Migantium_Mashum said:

If I was Kagero faced with 3 enemy ships with only the Roma for support I would run too.

:Smile_facepalm:

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Anti DD, no, 2 of my 3 most played ships are DD's

 

Akatsuki   Akatsuki 7 Japan 531 53.11% 1 562 35 678

 

Lightning   Lightning 8 U.K. 307 55.05% 1 104 35 415

 

In the case of lightning thanks to WG's Dire MM it does face Radar, dakka cruisers, gr8 cv's and even 1 radar BB, ALOT.

 

Having got out of trouble many times (4-5 ships firing at me), most of today's DD's die at the hands of just one.

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4 hours ago, Altsak said:

 

So do I get this right: Only idiots play DDs now?

 

The money questions of course then are

 

A) Why only idiots play DDs?

and

B) What can we do to attract more non-idiots to playing DDs?

 

Solve that and this kind of threads don't anymore spontaneously emerge to the forums.

No, you did NOT get what I said right. I said DD’s are fine. It’s that a LOT of idiots play them. Not all, coz I rock in DD’s, just a lot of players are idiots. You just seem to notice it more in DD’s and BB’s.

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56 minutes ago, Migantium_Mashum said:

I have the Kagero, Tier 8 IJN for those who don't know.

Kagero does not have the biggest HP tally, wouldn't you agree, even with SE equipped?

 

What was the enemy Cruiser?

Was one of the BB's the Missouri?

 

Maybe the Kagero was running 6.4k torps at 81 knots... maybe he had no torpedoes ready to fire and as firing the puny guns would immediately mean detection....

What do you expect the guns of Kagero to do, seriously?

 

If I was Kagero faced with 3 enemy ships with only the Roma for support I would run too.

Kagero have hp in line with normal destroyers, that is Benson and Lightning. Only large destroyers in shape of Z-23, Kiev and Fantasque class have more, while two of these "large destroyers" are casually outgunned by "japanese torpedo boat", as if having 1km concealment advantage wasn't enough:cap_tea:

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