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Why are DD's so poor these days.

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10 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

 

Because even if you do DD AA is still worthless so you've tossed away points and modules for no return.

 

 

 

I wouldn't take a DD out in the current meta if you paid me.

 

 

 

Yes, however if BB players want to complain about DD being able to torp from stealth then I'm going to point out there are tools to help them that they're not using, and thus how little a threat DD really are to them.

Yes, however if DD players want to complain about CV being able to drop them from invulnerability then I'm going to point out there are tools to help them they they're not using, and thus how little a threat CV really are to them.

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5 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

Yes, however if DD players want to complain about CV being able to drop them from invulnerability then I'm going to point out there are tools to help them they they're not using, and thus how little a threat CV really are to them.

 

Except there aren't.

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2 hours ago, NothingButTheRain said:

Yes, however if DD players want to complain about CV being able to drop them from invulnerability then I'm going to point out there are tools to help them they they're not using, and thus how little a threat CV really are to them.

 

You don't get the DD player mindset:

CVs shouldn't be able to spot them.

CVs shouldn't be able to damage them.

Their AA should obliterate the CV planes in a few seconds.

 

Once you get that mindset, you understand what they say.

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Wargaming should get rid of stupid mechanics, like the invisibility and the idea that a DD would be BB's equal. Ideally CVs should not be in the game either, most of the players wanted to play BBs and then some fool decided to generate invisible ship classes and sniper classes and it all went down the drain.

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15 minutes ago, mark1e said:

Wargaming should get rid of stupid mechanics, like the invisibility and the idea that a DD would be BB's equal. Ideally CVs should not be in the game either, most of the players wanted to play BBs and then some fool decided to generate invisible ship classes and sniper classes and it all went down the drain.

 

So what?  Remove everything but BB from the game?

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4 hours ago, Capra76 said:

Yes, however if BB players want to complain about DD being able to torp from stealth then I'm going to point out there are tools to help them that they're not using, and thus how little a threat DD really are to them.

Except there aren't.

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1 hour ago, mark1e said:

Wargaming should get rid of stupid mechanics, like the invisibility and the idea that a DD would be BB's equal. Ideally CVs should not be in the game either, most of the players wanted to play BBs and then some fool decided to generate invisible ship classes and sniper classes and it all went down the drain.

You do kinda have a point though.

I mean, a ship cloaking like it is a romulan warbird at 6km in clear skies?

 

It's a bit silly of course but they did end up choosing this mechanic and since they are neck deep in it now, there's no turning back from it anymore.

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7 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

 

 

Except there aren't.

 

RPF gives you likely direction of incoming torps, other tools help you detect them earlier, do those not sound like things that might be useful if you're scared of a bb v dd battle?

 

In comparison the base AA of DD is so low that even a 25% boost from BFT and the tier 9 mod is virtually meaningless, the first upgrade only affect flak and are thus is ineffective against even a basically competent player and AFT only affects the damage that flak causes and is thus both ineffective and irrelevant at the same time.

 

Q.E.D there are captain/ship builds for BB that can have a meaningful effect in countering DD, whereas there are no builds that will have any meaningful effect for DD against CV (and this ignores the fact that DD have many more essential skills/upgrades than BB).

 

Thus if BB don't build to counter DD then that tells us a lot about the relationship between the two, whereas if DD don't build to counter CV that tells us nothing at all.

 

@El2aZeR have you anything to add?

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10 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

@El2aZeR have you anything to add?

 

Just that DFAA is largely useless too nowadays.

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4 minutes ago, Europizza said:

This discussion just became ultra stupid :Smile_amazed:

He want every BB captain to use this as a base for his build :Smile_great:

https://worldofwarships.com/en/content/captains-skills/?skills=3,7,28,34&ship=Battleship

Seems ligit :cat_bubble:

It's far from stupid! I mean come on, everybody knows that these days nobody needs FP and SI on a BB anyway! :cap_cool:

 

BBaby players just ned to lurn to manage theyr damage control and not put out single fires :fish_book:

If BB gets sunk by DD its BB fault.

If DD gets sunk by CV its CV fault.

I mean come on it's simple! :crab:

 

Or perhaps Capra lost his touch with the game since he apparently played a mere 20 battles in total since last august? He just doesn't know what is happening with the game anymore.

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15 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

It's far from stupid! I mean come on, everybody knows that these days nobody needs FP and SI on a BB anyway! :cap_cool:

 

It feels like its getting worse and worse tho. Literally >half of the BBs seem to run secondary build these days. They all shoot >8km :cap_wander_2: Izumos, Musashis, Yamatos anyway but also US BBs (not only the secondary monsters)

And then you get like 1/5~1/4 of BB population running SE... yeah, no wonder they burn like dry wood in a hot day in the Sahara.

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45 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

He want every BB captain to use this as a base for his build 

 

No, the fact that isn't the base build for BB tells us a lot about bb v dd OMG!!!!!!!!!!!! as an argument (i.e. it's bull:etc_swear:)

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4 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

 

It feels like its getting worse and worse tho. Literally >half of the BBs seem to run secondary build these days. They all shoot >8km :cap_wander_2: Izumos, Musashis, Yamatos anyway but also US BBs (not only the secondary monsters)

And then you get like 1/5~1/4 of BB population running SE... yeah, no wonder they burn like dry wood in a hot day in the Sahara.

Fire prevention skills are a must for BBs these days :cap_old:

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On 10/25/2019 at 6:44 PM, NothingButTheRain said:

 

You've played literally one ship at or above tier 8 that isn't a DD. ONE ship. And only the Bismarck.

Do you even play any radar ships? Learn to play them so you will know how to counter them.

 

And your rant about BB players that played only 5 battles in a DD, what? How is ranting gonna help you?

 

If you wanna rant about BBs, go create another topic instead, there's plenty of topics findable by the search option "bbaby", the ranting part seems to mean you'll fit right in with the rest of that lot.

 

But your point about radar everywhere? Nah, you simply don't know how to play radar. Let alone how to counter them.

If you get radared all the time it means you're playing it wrong.

 

And yes. The average DD player is really that bad these days.

I literally LOL'ed from your comment. I've been playing the game since BETA, I've played the game throughout ALL the radar eras. You didn't 'get' what I'm saying because you simply classified it as a 'rant' and went on to write your comment here. You bothered to check what ships I play but you didn't bother to see my DD ratings or you did but it didn't fit your narrative about me not knowing how to counter radar so you chose to ignore them.

So, just to let you know that your opinion about 'play cruisers in order to learn to avoid radar' is a logical one BUT all the rest you wrote are crap. I obviously know how to counter radar and I can avoid a Des Moines best efforts all day long. The reason why DDs die so fast today is a COMBINATION of CV spotting, radar ships and ships like Smolensk destroying DDs in seconds. I can avoid a Des Moines shots 10 minutes straight, I can simply make a Moskva run out of radar time with almost zero hits on me. I CANNOT avoid Smolensk shells raining down on me because another radar ships has me spotted unless I play around the cap and wait for a competent team to kill the smolensk. Do you 'get' it now?

So, about the average DD player being really bad these days... I'm pretty sure I'm above average and I tell you that DDs are getting shafted by WG choices and the meta. What are you going to do about it beyond stomping your foot on the ground and blame the players which is the easiest comment to make. DD players suddenly and collectively dropped their skill level. EXPLAIN.

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On 10/25/2019 at 7:39 PM, genosse said:

I am with you on nerfing CV rockets.

 

I play the Kaga at the moment, and her rockets suck. They do 1500 damage on average to a DD, and maybe 3000 with a good hit, but that's not the rule (of maybe I just can't aim, who knows ;).

 

That is actually enough damage to distract a single capping DD and make it change its course, but it's usually not worth it to target it again and again, because you need to hit those BBs as well and do some real damage for the team.

 

You can disturb a DD and make him change his strategy, but not totally obliterate him without losing out yourself, and as a DD player, I think this is a fair deal.

 

CVs with stronger rockets, who can delete or cripple a DD in 1 or 2 runs are detrimental to the game and only create frustrated players, in my opinion, and their effectivity against destroyers should be further tweaked. Bombs tend to require a little more skill, so I am fine with them.

 

Radar, I think, is avoidable. Sure, there are those games where 3 or 4 radar cruisers perma spot you, no matter how careful you are, but those are rare, in my experience.

 

And cruisers are in a bad spot in general, I think. They are often difficult to play in the current meta, and they should keep the few benefits they got, imho. And yes, there are still many cruisers in the game, that aren't just a "win game" button, and require actual skill to get anywhere with them. ;)

 

I agree on all your points. Rockets planes especially on high tiers need to go or change.

As for Radar, the issue is not the radar ship itself, radar exists in this game for years now. Why is noone wondering why radar had only now become a problem? It's because WG gave radar to multiple ships and then proceeded to make a crapload of fast firing multiple turreted ships that can delete DDs in seconds. When the enemy team has a CV that spots you or even cripples you with rockets, then you smoke and get radared, then you get off the smoke and you get Smolensk'ed and so on and so forth. It's one gauntlet after the other nowadays. It's not the radar ship itself that's the problem, it's the OTHER ships that are near them gaining benefits of radar and exploiting it to the extreme.

I don't want radar ships to go. I want radar benefits to OTHER ships get nerfed or completely reworked (something like a 'ping' on the map, since they are now using it for submarines, the mechanic is already in place I guess). A radar ship finding and shooting DDs is fine, a radar ship lighting up a DD for Smolensk etc. is NOT fine. All of the above existed in the game for months, why only NOW they've become a problem? It's that most of the above were never TOGETHER in the same team until now that WG saturated the server with HE spammers/radars and their CV rework.

The game has issues with the combination of CV/Radar/fast firing ships, not with a specific thing. Although I would still argue that rocket planes need to change. Way too many passes, way too easy to hit and even if you do everything right in order to avoid them you STILL get hit with decent damage. This is not balanced or fair or fun.

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34 minutes ago, Bowmangr said:

So, about the average DD player being really bad these days... I'm pretty sure I'm above average and I tell you that DDs are getting shafted by WG choices and the meta. What are you going to do about it beyond stomping your foot on the ground and blame the players which is the easiest comment to make. DD players suddenly and collectively dropped their skill level. EXPLAIN.

Can I suggest it is both, and not either. Yes WG's decisions often hand destroyers the short end of the stick. Not always, planes not being able to spot torpedoes for instance has been an important help to destroyer gameplay, but playing DD is pretty hard work compared to playing BB or CV. So this makes playing destroyers harder, but does not explain why so many seem to die early still at high tiers. I play DD. I hardly ever die early, infact I usually die late or not at all. I'm a seasoned player, I by now know how to avoid dying early on in a destroyer most of the times.

 

Aside from the fact that every tier and every meta so far have had their fair share of destroyer captains yolo in and die first, seeing that in high tiers is puzzling, unless we factor in the possibility that:

A - grinding to tier 9 and 10 is a matter of time, not skill

B - skipping large chunks of the grind has become increasingly easier

C - the amount of anti DD is more numerous and more punishing at high tiers

We might see an actual increase of less experienced players in the upper echelons more now then ever before. Hence mudding the high tier waters with bad play and seemingly inexperienced low tier destroyer behavior.

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2 minutes ago, Europizza said:

We might see an actual increase of less experienced players in the upper echelons more now then ever before. Hence mudding the high tier waters with bad play and seemingly inexperienced low tier destroyer behavior.

 

I think its mostly this.

 

56 minutes ago, Bowmangr said:

The reason why DDs die so fast today is a COMBINATION of CV spotting, radar ships and ships like Smolensk destroying DDs in seconds.

 

Yet, ive seen DDs die getting proxy spotted by BBs :cap_old: Infact, this seems to be rather common for some reason. Biggest throws include, the side with the DD would win if he doesnt get spotted, some start to shoot the BB or Yolo it :cap_fainting:

And for some reason it feels like, some players start a game, and they have no clue about spawns. They go straight into a Cap. If they dont spot anything, they just keep going deeper and deeper (why?) Suddenly, they spot several enemy ships close proximity, if one is a radar ship, they die. This could have been completely avoidable by NOT rushing deeper into the cap than they would need to actually cap it.

But the problem is: This happens all the time.

 

Ive always said it: Bad DD players dont need radar to die, they will die to anything. I guess this behaviour doesnt change, because they occasionally succeed with their stupidity, like torping a BB point blank range, because the enemy BB player is also a total potato.

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TBH radar got nerfed so much that dying to one in random battle is almost always the destroyer fault.

Worcester radar lost so much range that you literally need to run into him to get spotted by him.

DM and to some extent Cleveland are the current most dangerous radar to DD. And even then there's 6seconds to run away before the whole enemy team can shot at the DD. If the DD is any skilled he can get out during those 6 seconds.

Russian ships radar is mostly used to spot an area and the whole enemy team instead of one specific target, and it's short enough for the DD to get away mostly unscated. Provided he is in range.

 

It's different in CB or ranked as most players will only radar when they know the whole team can shoot the DD ofc.

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Yesterday I had to cap 3 caps one after the other in Emerald as all but one DD were dead 2 min in and that one fella didnt want to come close to any caps...

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18 minutes ago, ShinGetsu said:

DM and to some extent Cleveland are the current most dangerous radar to DD

 

Minotaur :Smile_hiding:

If the DD isnt already angled away, its basicly dead. Sure you can survive the Mino if you point your bow towards him, but then the rest of the team will kill the DD.

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35 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

Minotaur :Smile_hiding:

If the DD isnt already angled away, its basicly dead. Sure you can survive the Mino if you point your bow towards him, but then the rest of the team will kill the DD.

Or mino just dumps 2 rack of fish in the water... :Smile_trollface:

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Vor 2 Stunden, ShinGetsu sagte:

 

Russian ships radar is mostly used to spot an area and the whole enemy team instead of one specific target, and it's short enough for the DD to get away mostly unscated. Provided he is in range.

 

 

Endgame russian cruisers are a difficult enemy for DDs, 12km Radar and pushing you...you ll have some serious trouble

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17 minutes ago, Loopyrobot said:

Endgame russian cruisers are a difficult enemy for DDs, 12km Radar and pushing you...you ll have some serious trouble

Yes and no. They are spotted way before they can radar you and the radar duration is pretty short.

They can be annoying as 12km is a long distance but it will rarely kill you and even less prevent you from getting closer and dropping your fish between two radar.

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1 hour ago, ShinGetsu said:

Yes and no. They are spotted way before they can radar you and the radar duration is pretty short.

Chapa?

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