Aircraft Carrier with Unlimited Planes?

[kbb07142]

I was just wanting your thoughts on what is aircraft carriers had unlimited planes.

 

Right now, at low tier games I can get through a game without loosing too many planes and can generally have full squadrons.

 

But as soon as you get into tier 6/7+, omg, every game i lose planes so fast due to the AA guns on ships.

 

Now 1st off, I like that ships can shoot down my planes, that is fine

But about halfway through the game i am out of planes and so tend to point my aircraft carrier at the closest battleship and try to ram him before he can kill me (which i have done a few times lol)

 

Now destroyers get unlimited torps so why shld aircraft carriers not get unlimited planes?

 

However there needs to be a penalty for loosing planes when re-arming.

 

For example:

Say a squadron consists of 6 planes and it takes 30 seconds to re-arm then with torps.

Well for each plane u lose it should take an extra 5 seconds to re-arm.

And if u loose the whole squadron then you get an additional 30 sec penalty.

 

So loosing a whole squadron will take 1min and 30 seconds. 

 

The extra penalty for loosing a whole squadron is because u dont want some1 to purposely loose their aircraft just because it will be quicker to get a new squadron than to fly back to their aircraft.

 

Thoughts? 

[Markhand]

Pick targets more carefully. You cant just fly straight in without considering the consequences. 

[Ishiro32]

It is fine. Tier 6 is kinda harder because you don't have a lot of spares and enemies start to have AA that you have to consider, but later you have enough spare planes to not even be bothered and earlier enemies do not have AA at all. Unlimited planes would cheapen the CV gameplay

[ParEx]

Avoid flying above enemy AA. That simple. You just cant start your bombers and click on target and forget.

You need to lead your planes, sneak through. There is always plenty of space to avoid enemy ships.

 

[x603]

If i asa carrier had unlimetet planes, all i would do is drop my torps/bombs and then have my bombers shoot down do i did't have to wait for my planes to fly back

[CloakingDonkey]

I think the problem with this is more or less Tier 6. The AA suddenly spikes into action something fierce but from Independence to Saipan your planes aren't getting all that much tougher and so they get torn to bits even just approaching lone battleships, cause even they suddenly have amazing AA.

 

not sure if there's anything that can be done about it... the tier5->tier6 break is pretty jarring though in  more ways than just AA and carriers

[_ramrus_]

Number of carrier planes is also a balancing number.

And the reload numbers sugest you never played higher tier battles.

Plan your attack to minimize time in AA range.

[MinRray]

As a carrier captain myself I think they are well balanced as they are now. They are fun yet challenging / hard to play, especially when taking more powerful AA ships into account. 

But also very rewarding when you sink a BB with 2 torp and 1 dive group in one sortie

 

Unlimited planes would make them overpowered as one would just send in the bomber wave, drop the bombs/toprs and let the planes get shot down so that they avoid the long way back to the carrier.

[Warwolf1969]

CVs are too strong now without throwing in unlimited planes. Against a good CV pilot it's v hard to avoid being slammed by their TBs.

[Hauptbahnhof]

I like the idea of a dynamic time penalty for replacing lost airplanes in a squad that scales with how many replacements you need. It makes sense and promotes trying to get your planes home in one piece even if you have plenty to spare.

 

Having a pretty high cost to repair the airplanes after each completed game ( but in return gaining more for example for shooting down planes ) would also work towards the same goal.

 

What I would like to see is CV Captains more often choosing to drop torpedoes from a longer distance to ensure the safety of the airplanes, even if it risks less hits.

[Warwolf1969]

I like the idea of a dynamic time penalty for replacing lost airplanes in a squad that scales with how many replacements you need. It makes sense and promotes trying to get your planes home in one piece even if you have plenty to spare.

 

Having a pretty high cost to repair the airplanes after each completed game ( but in return gaining more for example for shooting down planes ) would also work towards the same goal.

 

What I would like to see is CV Captains more often choosing to drop torpedoes from a longer distance to ensure the safety of the airplanes, even if it risks less hits.

Every BB captain in the game would love it if CV captains did this.  It would give them so much extra time to avoid the torps.  Doh.

[Ishiro32]

What I would like to see is CV Captains more often choosing to drop torpedoes from a longer distance to ensure the safety of the airplanes, even if it risks less hits.

 

It is very easy to encourage that.

1st make close range AA more effective

2nd increase damage of the torps and slightly increase their speed.

 

Result will be, risky manual drops will be very deadly, but there would be a reason to use auto as the spread from longer distance is better and those couple of torps that will hit still will deal some damage.

[Hauptbahnhof]

Every BB captain in the game would love it if CV captains did this.  It would give them so much extra time to avoid the torps.  Doh.

 

That is the idea yes, Risk versus Reward, its a very basic concept that exists for all other classes and makes the game interesting. ;)

 

The Destroyer can risk to get closer to his torpedo target, and be rewarded with an easier shot that is harder to dodge.

The Battleship can risk to get closer to his target, and be rewarded with an easier shot.

Same for the Cruiser applies regardless of weapon choice.

 

With the changes we suggested you can choose to suicide your torpedo airplanes as a CV captain to get bigger chance of hitting, but you won't be able to make many such drops before you run out of planes, and it will hurt your income in the end to replace all lost airplanes.

 

Currently it doesn't make a lot of difference so the CV Captain isn't really risking that much by dropping torpedoes right next to the target. The only thing you risk right now is getting all airplanes shot down and not having to wait for them to fly home...

 

Result will be, risky manual drops will be very deadly, but there would be a reason to use auto as the spread from longer distance is better and those couple of torps that will hit still will deal some damage.

 

It is also possible to make manual drops from longer distance! Or use two squadrons to drop a 12 torpedo wide double manual spread instead to ensure hits.

[Warwolf1969]

You obviously missed the sarcasm in my post. If you have CV pilots forced to drop their torps from a distance then the BBs will always rule the game. It would take out the CVs ability to defeat them and mean they would be useless. A CV's job is to destroy BBs if they can't do that then they are a useless line. Removing the close in release of TBs would make it impossible to hit BBs and would leave them as the main force in any game.

[Sharana]

That just can't work. And the reason is very simple. The CVs damage output is balanced with manual close drops, otherwise it's ridiculously low (so beginner who juct click on the enemy won't nuke them). Now if you promote the drop from greater distance that would mean exponentially lower hit chances, so it's dramatically lowering the damage output which will makes the CVs extremely UP. How can we restore their damage? More planes probably, but the current number is stunningly realistic as a real CV can't launch all the planes at once, so there are waves. The other option is to increase the torpedo damage ... but that will make them on the same level as ship based torps. That's not realistic and bad for the gameplay, as it would be OP against the lower tier ships with worse AA which will just get nuked.

And even if the damage is increased it would be even worse for the targeted ships. Now when the torps are not launched at close range you can evade most of them, so you take small amounts of damage. After such change those few hits will deal far more damage (as the good close drop before), but more CVs will be able to do it instead of only few now. You really want that?

[krautjaeger]

I was just wanting your thoughts on what is aircraft carriers had unlimited planes.

 

Right now, at low tier games I can get through a game without loosing too many planes and can generally have full squadrons.

 

But as soon as you get into tier 6/7+, omg, every game i lose planes so fast due to the AA guns on ships.

 

Now 1st off, I like that ships can shoot down my planes, that is fine

But about halfway through the game i am out of planes and so tend to point my aircraft carrier at the closest battleship and try to ram him before he can kill me (which i have done a few times lol)

 

Now destroyers get unlimited torps so why shld aircraft carriers not get unlimited planes?

 

However there needs to be a penalty for loosing planes when re-arming.

 

For example:

Say a squadron consists of 6 planes and it takes 30 seconds to re-arm then with torps.

Well for each plane u lose it should take an extra 5 seconds to re-arm.

And if u loose the whole squadron then you get an additional 30 sec penalty.

 

So loosing a whole squadron will take 1min and 30 seconds. 

 

The extra penalty for loosing a whole squadron is because u dont want some1 to purposely loose their aircraft just because it will be quicker to get a new squadron than to fly back to their aircraft.

 

Thoughts? 

 

There's been said that they may consider having the ammo-cost of torpedoes raised so if TDs go full spam it will cost them a lot, and quite possibly go a lot negative income in a match. Perhaps they'll consider this for CV's as well, at some point, who knows. If so, you could launch a lot of air planes but it would also cost you considerably. Beta, we'll see how they tune it all up.

[Ishiro32]

You obviously missed the sarcasm in my post. If you have CV pilots forced to drop their torps from a distance then the BBs will always rule the game. It would take out the CVs ability to defeat them and mean they would be useless. A CV's job is to destroy BBs if they can't do that then they are a useless line. Removing the close in release of TBs would make it impossible to hit BBs and would leave them as the main force in any game.

 

Obviously you did not understand my post. Your post might have been sarcastic but it has some truth to it. Right now the only way to play TB is the manual drop so close that the activation is as close to the ship as it can be. This is very skillful and rewarding, but the truth is that any other playstyle is pretty much worthless. This is the only way you can do damage.

 

That just can't work. And the reason is very simple. The CVs damage output is balanced with manual close drops, otherwise it's ridiculously low (so beginner who juct click on the enemy won't nuke them). Now if you promote the drop from greater distance that would mean exponentially lower hit chances, so it's dramatically lowering the damage output which will makes the CVs extremely UP. How can we restore their damage? More planes, but the current number is stunningly realistic as a real CV can't launch all the planes at once, so there are waves. The other option is to increase the torpedo damage ... but that will make them on the same level as ship based torps. That's not realistic and bad for the gameplay, as it would be OP against the lower tier ships with worse AA which will just get nuked.

And even if the damage is increased it would be even worse for the targeted ships. Now when the torps are not launched at close range you can evade most of them, so you take small amounts of damage. After such change those few hits will deal far more damage (as the good close drop before), but more CVs will be able to do it instead of only few now. You really want that?

 

I agree with you that going balistic with what I proposed would be very negative for the gameplay, but you can't say that right now TB are in a heatthy place anyway. I don't think the only way to play TBs should be perfect manual drop. Auto drops should have some kind of place in a CV play. 

[Hauptbahnhof]

You obviously missed the sarcasm in my post. If you have CV pilots forced to drop their torps from a distance then the BBs will always rule the game. It would take out the CVs ability to defeat them and mean they would be useless. A CV's job is to destroy BBs if they can't do that then they are a useless line. Removing the close in release of TBs would make it impossible to hit BBs and would leave them as the main force in any game.

 

No I didn't miss the sarcasm.

 

I agree with you that the CVs job is to destroy Battleships. I never wrote anything contradicting that.

 

The current balance is fine so why change it? Will CVs need other strengths to compensate and enable drops from further out to be more successful? Yes certainly.

Increased damage was already mentioned, but you can also add higher flooding chance, more powerful dive bombers, strafing fighter to suppress the AA and thus allow torpedo bombers to get in close, faster airplanes (already coming in next patch)...

 

There are dozens of opportunities here that can be used to keep the current balance.

[Warwolf1969]

And you failed to read my post. If you reduce the ability of the CV to close drop then what happens in the CV becomes useless. Use of auto drop results in one or two hits IF you're lucky. There has to be a close in manual drop otherwise the BBs will avoid the torpedoes and dominate the game totally. Each class is there to balance the other. CVs are there to balance BBs and stop them becoming the only ship played. Remove the close in drop and this game will become World of Battleships.

[Sharana]

Auto drops should have some kind of place in a CV play. 

Auto drops are for beginners in coop. It's like autoaim in WoT, do you want it to be more effective? I really like the skill->effectiveness ratio here in WoWs. Because in WoT even complete "tomato" with some RNG can nuke you, while the auto attack here can't be avoided (=taking less then 2-3/12) only if you are afk or stuck.

 

The TBs can be balanced with long range drop only if they add AP bombs to the DBs who will do the main damage and the torpedoes are bonus when the AA is weakened by the DBs and fighters. And I would like that idea more, as it's more harder to make manual attack with the DBs then it is with the TBs.

[Hauptbahnhof]

 

If you reduce the ability of the CV to close drop then what happens in the CV becomes useless.

 

Did you know that there exist such a thing as grey? It's a scale of colors between white and black....

 

No one said how far we wanted to reduce dropping distance, perhaps 5% is enough? Will that make all Carriers useless? Do you honestly think that?

 

Today Carriers already pretty often drop 3-4 times as far away as the minimum distance, and they do just fine ( or what you call good balance ). Dropping at the extreme minimum is already very risky today because a slight turn into the drop from the ship and the torpedoes will not have time to activate so they will all do zero damage.

 

Most drops that are "impossible to dodge" happen perhaps at around twice this range to provide some margin of safety. What I am asking for is to further reward dropping further away since it ( as you admit ) requires more skill.

And you failed to read my post. 

...

Remove the close in drop and this game will become World of Battleships.

 

No but you failed to read my post. No one said anything about removing close in drops, just make it a risk versus reward choice that is not always the best choice for you. That leads to more decisions and more variation in gameplay = more fun for all involved.

[Ishiro32]

Auto drops are for beginners in coop. It's like autoaim in WoT, do you want it to be more effective? I really like the skill->effectiveness ratio here in WoWs. Because in WoT even complete tomato with some RNG can nuke you, while the auto attack here can't be avoided (taking less then 2-3/12) only if you are afk or stuck.

 

The TBs can be balanced with long range drop only if they add AP bombs to the DBs who will do the main damage then with torpedoes as bonus. And I would like that idea more, as it's more harder to make manual attack with the DBs.

 

I also like skill effectivness ratio, but forcing one gameplaystyle in my opinion is wrong. Yes, I would like to see newbie CVs a bit more effective as they are completly worthless right now, but at the same time I want manual drops to be best option there is, because it is very skilful and has a lot of mindgames and setting up. 

 

DBs and Fighters are completly different discussion. In my opinion all plane types need changes and DB are first to go. Right now manual attack with DB is something that I not even cosidered, I just make sure to attack from the correct angle to have like 1 or 2 fires. Garbage accuracy and damage. Will see with AP bombs. 

[Warwolf1969]

What you are suggesting is punishing a CV for close in drops so badly that they won't be used. Auto drops are easy to avoid as long as the BB captain is paying attention. If you punish a player for using their skill it is a bad thing. If a CV captain is skillfull enough to use a close in drop well then punishing them by destroying all their planes for the act is bad game play.

[Hauptbahnhof]

The TBs can be balanced with long range drop only if they add AP bombs to the DBs who will do the main damage and the torpedoes are bonus when the AA is weakened by the DBs and fighters. And I would like that idea more, as it's more harder to make manual attack with the DBs then it is with the TBs.

 

Dive bombers did prove to be very effective at Midway, and in the indian ocean the Japanese elite pilots had 80% hit ratio against enemy targets ( many of them as small as destroyers ).

 

So there is certainly historical justification for making divebombers more powerful!

 

And I think many agree that we would like to see close in range torpedo drops against well defended targets like the Yamato and US high tier BBs suicidal unless first the AA has been weakened by Dive bombers ( and in the future fighter strafing ), or by enemy ship HE shelling for that matter, same effect...

 

Would be really awesome if you can cooperate like that, fighter CV or Cruisers ships have to go in first with explosives to soften the hard targets AA and secondaries, then the torpedoes from bombers or destroyers can get in close and finish the job.

 

Sending in slow torpedo bombers first flying low and dropping at minimum distance against AA heavy targets was and should be suicide for the airplanes. That is how it worked in reality, regardless of what warwolf seems to think about nefing the poor carriers.

[Warwolf1969]

Hey I prefer BBs and CAs thank you very much. I have tried CVs and that's why I'm saying how bad it would be to remove their close in drop or punishing them for doing so.