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Nufessa

Graf Spee

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In my opinion this ship should have been a tier 8 super cruiser. I mean, she was a pocket battleship with extreme accurate guns and a decent armor (102mm main belt). Not that good to be tier 9-10 but enough to be 8, they nerfed armor and accuracy on purpose to make the ship suitable for tier 6.. But she could have been more fun as a large cruiser in higher tiers

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From the timeline she fits better at Tier VI.

Armor was not changed.

Yes, her accuracy was not cruiser level, but that was not a thing with these guns back then.

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13 minutes ago, Nufessa said:

Not that good to be tier 9-10 but enough to be 8,

That's why she's T6 in order not to face T9 and T10...


And she and her sister HSF are ingame since ages - I don't see any reason for a change - she's fine where she is currently. 

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1 hour ago, Nufessa said:

In my opinion this ship should have been a tier 8 super cruiser. I mean, she was a pocket battleship with extreme accurate guns and a decent armor (102mm main belt). Not that good to be tier 9-10 but enough to be 8, they nerfed armor and accuracy on purpose to make the ship suitable for tier 6.. But she could have been more fun as a large cruiser in higher tiers

Easy solution to that, - Fail-Division up with your buddy to test the theory and take a few games with her exclusively in tier 8 or 9 games. See how that pans out. Keep in mind that at tier 8 she would be matched against tier 9's and 10's much of the time. She has neither the armament, armor nor the speed to cope with any of that. :cap_old:

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Accuracy is fine and at T6 she's competitive, at T8 she would not be. Even with T8 25 mm plating instead of 19 mm and cruiser accuracy, all it'd mean is it more often faces high dpm cruisers that take it apart, while it cannot overmatch them. At T6, safe for T8 matches, Graf spee does not have this issue as much and against T5 BBs it even can overmatch those. And armour wasn't nerfed, the belt is still there. Just there's more than just belt armour that can be shot at. 

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In my opinion, the Graf Spee is fine and dandy exactly where she is - a well balanced tier VI ship with a uniquely flavoured play style. There is absolutely no reason to change her. She'd be totally out of place at tier VIII, and besides, we've got more than enough tier VIII premiums as it is.

 

Nice thread anyhow, @Nufessa - fresh ideas are always welcome. And I like to see the the ol' Graf being talked about; she's been around for a long whole now, and she's still pulling her weight in the game! 

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2 hours ago, RAHJAILARI said:

Easy solution to that, - Fail-Division up with your buddy to test the theory and take a few games with her exclusively in tier 8 or 9 games. See how that pans out. Keep in mind that at tier 8 she would be matched against tier 9's and 10's much of the time. She has neither the armament, armor nor the speed to cope with any of that. :cap_old:

Unfortunately you can only fail div up 1 tier now. The UI won't let you start a battle with more than a 1 tier diff in the div. However seeing how Graf would hold up against Alsace, Musashi  or Jean Bart would be very short entertainment value. It would be more like watching someone club a pup.

Edited by Fat_Maniac
I meant Musashi not Mutsu :-) DOH !!!!

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4 minutes ago, Fat_Maniac said:

Unfortunately you can only fail div up 1 tier now. The UI won't let you start a battle with more than a 1 tier diff in the div. However seeing how Graf would hold up against Alsace, Mutsu or Jean Bart would be very short entertainment value. It would be more like watching someone club a pup.

 

If you put a T6+7 ship in a div, you can get T9 MM. But you need a division like that on each side so that MM can actually screw you over.

 

Also if Graf Spee would be on T8, would Scharnhorst still be T7? Feels extremely weird imo. Scharnhorst could fit the role of a BC much better than Graf Spee.

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7 minutes ago, Fat_Maniac said:

Unfortunately you can only fail div up 1 tier now. The UI won't let you start a battle with more than a 1 tier diff in the div. However seeing how Graf would hold up against Alsace, Mutsu or Jean Bart would be very short entertainment value. It would be more like watching someone club a pup.

Mutsu? :Smile_teethhappy:

 

And you can always take a few friends into a training room and have the Spee shot up by Des Moines, Smolensk, Bourgogne, Harugumo or whatever you feel like :cap_rambo:

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12 minutes ago, Fat_Maniac said:

Unfortunately you can only fail div up 1 tier now. The UI won't let you start a battle with more than a 1 tier diff in the div. However seeing how Graf would hold up against Alsace, Mutsu or Jean Bart would be very short entertainment value. It would be more like watching someone club a pup.

Yupp, I inadvertently tried it once, when I accidentally chose Graf Spee instead of Myoko (understandable mistake, they look almost the same right?) when we divisioned up and ended in a tier 9 match. I gather the following proceedings were indeed relatively high on entertainment value, though sadly not for me as such but instead to the enemy.:cap_wander_2::Smile_trollface:

 

Since Graf Spee was built to be "Faster than anything stronger, but stronger than anything faster" - Well it just turns out at tier 9 it is simply slower than anything else and also weaker than anyone else... The results were accordingly fairly atrocious, I must admit.:etc_swear::Smile_amazed:

4 minutes ago, Tyrendian89 said:

Mutsu? :Smile_teethhappy:

I think he meant Musashi... That encounter might indeed be hilarious, for the Musashi I mean.:Smile_teethhappy:

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IMO the Graf Spee should have been the Tier VII researchable Cruiser instead of the Yorck class which never existed. With some tweaks to make it competitive for that tier.

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2 ore fa, Nufessa ha scritto:

In my opinion this ship should have been a tier 8 super cruiser. I mean, she was a pocket battleship with extreme accurate guns and a decent armor (102mm main belt). Not that good to be tier 9-10 but enough to be 8, they nerfed armor and accuracy on purpose to make the ship suitable for tier 6.. But she could have been more fun as a large cruiser in higher tiers

the schlachtschiff type of battleship (see gneisenau and bismarck) is explicitely a step forward to the previous panzerschiff that is the graff spe. So it would be irrealistic to have a graff spe at t8  also for historical reasons.
That said I agree that the ship is absolutely underpowered, with lack of accuracy armor and consistent DPM. It really needs to be buffed and not slightly, but it should reamain a t6 or no more than t7

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46 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

If you put a T6+7 ship in a div, you can get T9 MM. But you need a division like that on each side so that MM can actually screw you over.

 

Also if Graf Spee would be on T8, would Scharnhorst still be T7? Feels extremely weird imo. Scharnhorst could fit the role of a BC much better than Graf Spee.

No you don't. The MM will pull a poor solo T6 in to make MM work on the other team. 

 

I have been that poor boat :

:Smile_amazed:

 

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52 minutes ago, Tyrendian89 said:

Mutsu? :Smile_teethhappy:

 

And you can always take a few friends into a training room and have the Spee shot up by Des Moines, Smolensk, Bourgogne, Harugumo or whatever you feel like :cap_rambo:

Have you been spying on some of my Clans fleet events :-).

 

The funniest thing to try is a full 2ndry spec Graf Zepp vs T4 destroyers.  nO planes allowed. The destroyers cant chase her down easily and when they do they get burnt to death. Only way to do it is a travelling wall of smoke until you get close enough.

 

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25 minutes ago, Fat_Maniac said:

No you don't. The MM will pull a poor solo T6 in to make MM work on the other team. 

 

I have been that poor boat :

 

 

Must have been a long time ago?

Currently, that doesnt work anymore, as you cant get f***ed like that. the MM cant even put a T7 ship on the enemy team to compensate*, because tiers are matched these days. Thats why, anchor divisioning actually works now, unless you meet another division doing the same.

 

*maybe it can after a sufficient waiting time (3 mins or so)

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Graf Spee is good just the way it is at tier 6. Putting it at higher tier doesn't increase it's value, only the difficulty of playing it.

And even now it's difficult to play her, let alone in higher tiers. It's so unique it has its own playstyle and you can't really play it as cruiser nor battleship, but a weird combination of both.

 

As it's said numerous times before, people either have extreme hate for it because they can't figure how to play with it, or extremely love it because it suits their playstyle.

I belong to the latter. I have massive success and have fun in Graf Spee and I'm glad I bought it.

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4 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Must have been a long time ago?

Currently, that doesnt work anymore, as you cant get f***ed like that. the MM cant even put a T7 ship on the enemy team to compensate*, because tiers are matched these days. Thats why, anchor divisioning actually works now, unless you meet another division doing the same.

 

*maybe it can after a sufficient waiting time (3 mins or so)

It was a while ago, and it was a traumatic event as you can tell, by the fact I still remember it so much.

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