Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Sir_Sinksalot

The Thing About Destroyers...

46 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

Players
552 posts
3,460 battles

....I'm having the most difficulty with grasping in my noobness is this, and why I'm also slow to jump tiers is this. What's the point in playing destroyers if they haven't the range on their torps to avoid having to get spotted along with what's the point of playing the heavy destroyers when in effect all they appear to be is a bad cruiser?

 

I have a couple of low tier destroyers I'm using to practice and develop torp skills, a tier2 Jpn and a tier2 P-A. Why those? Simple, they both have the longest range torpedoes I could find at very attainable tiers along with great camo and speed... so they totally make sense and what a destroyer attributes should be imo, the ability to spot targets, release torpedoes and fall back without being spotted. Being spotted not only attracts enemy fire but you've also lost the element of surprise so the enemy ships you were targeting see a destroyer and know that torps are on the way so they will change heading to avoid. So with these 2 destroyers, I can scoot around reasonably quick, spot some ships, let those torps go and retreat... rinse and repeat. For me, this is the fun part of playing a destroyer and the only real reason to bother with them over a cruiser. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I will get into gun fights with other destroyers in fact this has been a much more viable way to fight other destroyers so far to the point I just immediately switch to guns as soon as "it's on" with an enemy destroyer. Sure, I slip some torps into the water too if nothing else they'll force the enemy destroyer to have to break concentration from shooting me with his gun and give me a free volley or two at him while he turns his ship to avoid the torps and take a less favorable lines. But if I want to purely brawl, then it's a cruiser all day long they're just much better at it, have more hp, have more firepower, have more range and not lagging behind destroyers much in terms of speed.

 

and so this is my point/question, why bother with destroyers when so many/most of all of them at lower and even mid tiers have such horrible torpedo range? what's the point? Most all of them have torp ranges so bad that you have to get too close and spotted before you can launch them, even the dedicated torp boats which to me makes no sense at all. Sure, at the high tiers some of them eventually come good again and get the torp ranges to allow them spot ships, release torps and fall back but until then it just looks like pretty ineffective yolo runs. What am I not understanding about these lower and mid tier destroyers? 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[CATS]
Players
26,154 posts
14,106 battles
  • most DD work really well with Concealment Expert, but that needs a 10 point captain (for a beginner that is a high bar, but unfortunately it is the standard for many veterans)
  • when you torp approaching ships, you can hit targets further away than your torp range (they sail into your range, before the torps run out)
  • you can also torp from behind islands
  • more gun oriented DD can shoot from smoke
  • the main focus of gun oriented DD is hunting other DD, when you eliminate the other DD, you can use smoke to shoot at bigger ships
  • DD profit A LOT from your personal situational awareness, the ability to read the battle, "feel" the positions of hidden ships and so on
  • Cool 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
9,836 posts
11,531 battles

Keep in mind long range torps have longer "time window" for target to maneuver out of harms way, even by accident due to sheer distance they have to cover at not that high speeds. Also infamous Shimakaze 20km torps (also present on Yoshino CB) torps got so nerfhammered its actually hilarious to land hits with them due to relatively slow speed AND massive torpedo detection distance.

 

To maximize torpedo hit rate you usually need to operate at edge of detection, where you put yourself in harms way should you get spotted. And you will get spotted at high tiers due to Radar consumable.

 

While cruisers almost universally have "more dakka", they also have citadel, which can send you back to port at supersonic velocity. Feature DDs don't have. Also with cruiser concealment you don't do the stalking, you're stalked by destroyers.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
552 posts
3,460 battles

Thanks guys

 

I decided to keep going with the DD path and currently running with the T5 Jpn Mutsuki. I like the Japanese destroyers and took the purist torpedo based path. I figure if I'm going to play destroyers, then playing the ones most dedicated to torpedoes is the way to go, otherwise I'll play a cruiser. Looking at both Japanese DD path options, while the Mutsuki-> Fubuki path definitely leans towards torpedo boats, both lines seem to take turns at different tiers to be a bit stronger at torps or guns, at least on paper, thought the torp boat lines always seem to at the very least have some edge in the torps department lol. 

 

I also notice that different ships torps have different detection ranges which of course, gives the enemy ship more or less time to try and avoid them. I'm not sure where the Japanese sit in terms of their torp detection. Can you guys recommend some effective torp boats that are really destructive and fun to play? Also, can you explain to me the Russian destroyers? I don't understand what they're playstyle is supposed to be so I didn't even bother with them. On paper, what I see, is destroyers that have torp ranges of only 4km and yet their sea detection range is 7.5km... how the hell does that make any sense? To me it seems like the only way you can apply these as torp boats is to get spotted early, take a beating as you try to close in on a target, get to within what's also secondary gun range of a target ship then if at this point you're somehow still alive, turn your ship to take even more shots and maybe, MAYBE have time to release a volley of torpedoes against a target that's seen you coming an hour ago and is well prepared and already taking evasive action. Now, clearly I am wrong and this is not how these pathetically short range torp boats are supposed to be played so I'm asking how are they played. It's not just Russia, they're several nations featuring really bad torp ranges on their double D(yup, I said double d and yes it has two meanings) so I'd be interested in knowing how these boats are supposed to be used. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
9,836 posts
11,531 battles
6 minutes ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

Thanks guys

 

I decided to keep going with the DD path and currently running with the T5 Jpn Mutsuki. I like the Japanese destroyers and took the purist torpedo based path. I figure if I'm going to play destroyers, then playing the ones most dedicated to torpedoes is the way to go, otherwise I'll play a cruiser. Looking at both Japanese DD path options, while the Mutsuki-> Fubuki path definitely leans towards torpedo boats, both lines seem to take turns at different tiers to be a bit stronger at torps or guns, at least on paper, thought the torp boat lines always seem to at the very least have some edge in the torps department lol. 

While it is not wrong assumption to play cruiser instead gun oriented DD, keep in mind quite a number of destroyers, often called "hybrids" like USN, UK or to lesser extent German ones carry enough gunpower to mop up IJN "torpedo boats", without sacrificing torpedoes or concealment. Only "all out gunboats" like Russian or hightier French indeed sacrifice concealment, putting them at severe disadvantage when forced into contesting caps against sneakier opponents. On other hand, these gunboats, when assisting "DD proper" at cap can deliver plenty of hurt. And unlike cruisers, they can disengage at will with 45kts+ top speed on top of not having citadel.

 

11 minutes ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

I also notice that different ships torps have different detection ranges which of course, gives the enemy ship more or less time to try and avoid them. I'm not sure where the Japanese sit in terms of their torp detection.

Ironically, despite IJN being branded as "torpedo boats", received nerfs to torpedo detection back in the day.

 

You can check torpedo detection and speeds yourself in game when you expand "torpedoes" tab. or use 3rd party site, which also calculates reaction time

https://wowsft.com/

 

13 minutes ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

Can you guys recommend some effective torp boats that are really destructive and fun to play?

You haven't specified tiers:Smile_smile:

USS Fletcher, because she combines one of the best torpedoes in game (hard hitting, quite fast, decent concealment, absurdly quick reload) with one of the highest gun DPMs, decent ship concealment, reasonable AA, great handling. Basically do-it-all except long range shelling kind of a DD.

IJN Shimakaze - fast and quite stealthy ship packing decent gunnery even with modest skill investment, while you can't argue with option of launching 15 torpedoes at once. 20km torps are arguably the worst, 8km "F3" are very fast and lethal, but you will be treading very fine line when using them. Middle ground being 12km, which also have the highest damage. And the same 12km fishes are available on tier 10 cruiser Zao (with over 2km window of stealth torping with full concealment build), tier 9 Yugumo as well in "gunboat" branch, that is Kitakaze and Harugumo. 

 

Otherwise, IJN torps have on average the highest damage per fish. German torps may be faster and stealthier, but their lacking damage combined with only 8 launchers total can make you die a little bit inside, when you land 8/8 torps and target still lives. French DDs have high damage, high speed, but very few launchers, the highest amount of torps being 6 at time.

25 minutes ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

On paper, what I see, is destroyers that have torp ranges of only 4km and yet their sea detection range is 7.5km... how the hell does that make any sense?

Guns Guns Guns. Lowtiers not so much, but from tier 5 you get (in)famous 130mm, high velocity, low air drag shells, having comfortable ballistics to hit stuff at all ranges. From tier 8 onwards they get heal as option instead smoke, which further highlights their "that high speed annoying firestarting jackass" gameplay. They also are the only line where you usually forgo concealment to maximize gunnery.

 

Not exactly team players, but fine lone wolfs or opportunists, harassers and overall annoying jackasses to deal with:Smile_smile: Carriers are main pain in the arse, but that extends to all DDs and everyone having ideas of "flanking" on their own.

  • Cool 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
552 posts
3,460 battles

Nice.

 

Well, you mentioned some higher tier DD and that U.S. looks sweet so might venture down that line. I suppose the most attainable DD for me right now would be some mid tiers and I'll spend a lot of time grinding through tier6 so what would be some of the stronger tier6 torp DDs?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
9,836 posts
11,531 battles
1 minute ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

Nice.

 

Well, you mentioned some higher tier DD and that U.S. looks sweet so might venture down that line. I suppose the most attainable DD for me right now would be some mid tiers and I'll spend a lot of time grinding through tier6 so what would be some of the stronger tier6 torp DDs?

 

USN line is definitely worth due to, well, Fletcher but also it teaches you to rely on the guns - you can't stealth torp until tier 7, so you get acquainted with guns to get the job done when contesting caps. From tier 7 you gain option to launch torps unspotted, which is handy, but not necessarily game winning. Not as bruising your way through enemy DDs and capturing bases.

 

From tier 6 torpedo oriented DDs, both Fubuki and Harugumo are decent, if lacking in gunnery department for self defense or fighting other DDs. They make up for that with great concealment though.

 

Gaede have again questionable gunnery due to long reload on her 15cm guns, torps are perfectly serviceable even if soft hitting. She significantly lacks concealment, in return have 3rd highest amount of hp after french Guepard and premium Aigle.

 

Fushun, Pan Asian DD is literally russian DD of Gnevny class in Chinese service, thus she combines their hallmark 130mm ballistics with more than serviceable 8km Deep Water torpedoes, though of average damage and only 6 fishes total. She also for some reason have one of the best concealment at that tier, making her one of the best "hybrids"... once you sort out turret traverse with Expert Marksman skill.

 

From tier 6 premiums

-mentioned French Aigle, one of the highest potential gun dpm at tier 6 combined with hard hitting, though slow torpedoes. Guns are hampered by atrocious turret traverse, abysmal firing arcs and slow shell velocity, making long range gunnery... tad futile at times. Can be bought for Coal from the Armory, she is also the only FR DD with smoke.

-British Gallant. Almost identical to silver Icarus, although have longer ranged torps. She also lacks "British" short lasting smoke as well trades their Hydroacoustic search for Engine Boost. Overall unremarkable but workable boat

-American Monaghan. She have two hull options, one with 4 guns and access to short ranged torpedoes only, making her basically Farragut trading one gun for more hp. Second replaces two rear turrets with AA, but more importantly, she can mount Benson torpedoes, having quite high damage and range by tier 6 standards, but they are SLOW. And you throw 10 of them:Smile_smile:

-Pan Asian Anshan, sister ship to Fushun and Russian Gnevny. She trades Pan Asian hallmark smoke for regular one and replaces DeepWater torps with regular ones, so she can torp destroyers just fine.

-T-61 German DD. Good concealment, same torps as Gaede but somehow with significantly better reload. Guns also reload faster than Gaede 12.8cm equivalents, making her straight up better than silver ship. Doesn't have as much hp though.

-IJN Shinonome, reward ship for completing Honorable Service campaign. You can't obtain her without having at least tier 8 ship, preferably tier 10 (and multiple ones at that). She is basically Fubuki, as she is Fubuki class, but with three gun turrets running stock torpedoes with range extended to 8km. Okay ship, but not really thrilling IMO.

  • Cool 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
56 posts

I'll chip in with my tuppence here. Good comments from others above.

 

Take your time going up the tiers and as others have said, one of the keys is getting at least a 10 point Commander - so you can spec Concealement. Sounds basic but also remember to use camo to improve Concealement a wee bit more (amazing how many players don't).

 

If you like IJN DDs you will find the Isokaze-Minekaze-Hatsuharus all enjoyable and eventually the T7 Shiratsuyu a joy (well, I did and still do).

 

T7 is a good tier for getting mixed matches and therefore a good mix of challenge/learning whilst still contributing - anything from T5 to T9 in your Randoms. This exposes you (as gently as possible) to the really experienced players who know all the tricks and will ever so nicely teach you lessons the hard way. Plus as you get more experience you get to hammer some hapless noob T5 players to keep you encouraged. I'd suggest getting your Commander up to 19 points if you can before going higher tiers than 7. This is possible if you find a T7 ship you really enjoy and seems to naturally 'fit' your playstyle (it was the Shiratsuyu for me).

 

Your Win Rate and XP will steadily climb as you take your time.

 

Good luck and fair seas!

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
9,836 posts
11,531 battles
1 hour ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

Thanks guys. So, is concealment a skill that can be selected or is it just something that scales with the commanders point level?

Concealment Expert is a tier 4 captain skill, it works as advertised (10% ship/plane detection reduction) the moment you unlock it. If captain undergoes retraining for new ship, it will work at half strength.

Other bit is Concealment System Mod 1 upgrade, available on tier 8+ (with three exceptions, Arkansas Beta, Belfast and Z-39) ships. And is the reason why T7 DDs are in hard spot, simply because almost universally tier higher not only have more dakka, more hp and/or better torps, but also better concealment, which alone is critical advantage.

 

With select few exceptions you stack all the available concealment bonuses on your ships, simply because not being seen and thus shot at is inherently overpowered:Smile_smile:

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
9,836 posts
11,531 battles
8 minutes ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

I must be blind.... where is this concealment expert skill?

 

EZ2KusC.jpg

EZ2KusC.jpg

 

And you've made critical mistake when picking skills, no Last Stand on destroyer.

 

Last Stand enables ship rudder and engine to remain operational, even if at reduced efficiency. Better than sailing in circles because last shell hit jammed rudder:Smile_smile:

 

Baseline DD skill set up should look like this:

shot-19-09-25-22-23-42-0634.jpg

 

Priority Target - I find information someone is aiming at me invaluable, also when counter drops down and then goes up, you know someone switched to torps, presumably launched them and went back to guns. Preventative Maintenance is okay, but you still have chance for engine kill.

Last Stand as above - engine and rudder remain operational

Survivability Expert - having faster reload on guns on torps is nice, but dead ship don't fire back. And on extraordinarily squishy ships you will find any extra hp welcome

Concealment Expert - as above, see but do not be seen.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
552 posts
3,460 battles

Ah very good. Btw, how have you selected 2nd line and 4th line skill without creating that seemingly required chain of having to select a skill from line 1 and line 3? to unlock that last stand and then Concealment expert?(If that makes sense)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
9,836 posts
11,531 battles
13 minutes ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

Ah very good. Btw, how have you selected 2nd line and 4th line skill without creating that seemingly required chain of having to select a skill from line 1 and line 3? to unlock that last stand and then Concealment expert?(If that makes sense)

You don't have to. You need to unlock at least single skill of preceding tier skill to unlock next tier though, thus you can't go for Concealment straight out of the box, you need to "work your way through" by purchasing tier 1, 2 and 3 skills. But only one is required to unlock next tier.

 

Keep in mind captain ends gathering points at 19lvl and past 14lvl exp breakpoints get... Intimidating. So you can't afford putting skills here, there and nowhere unless you have too many doubloons to spare:cap_book:

 

Also I'd advise on focusing getting single captain up to maximum level - once you reach that, any exp gathered with this captain goes into "elite exp" pool, which then can be used for leveling and retraining new captains.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
552 posts
3,460 battles

Yes but in your screenshot you have not a tier 1 or tier 3 skill "ticked" so I don't understand. I reset my crew skills and had to select 1 and 2 and 3 etc, not 2 and 4 so... I don't understand how you managed to select tier 2 and tier 4 without 1 and 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
9,836 posts
11,531 battles
6 hours ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

Yes but in your screenshot you have not a tier 1 or tier 3 skill "ticked" so I don't understand. I reset my crew skills and had to select 1 and 2 and 3 etc, not 2 and 4 so... I don't understand how you managed to select tier 2 and tier 4 without 1 and 3

Take second look at my screenshot.

 

WoWs captain skills are NOT skill trees RPG style, where to unlock meteor you have to unlock fireball first. They are just arbitrarily grouped by WG.:Smile_smile:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
552 posts
3,460 battles

ahhhhhhhhhhhh I see, it's actually possible to take the following skill from one of the other 4 groups and we're not bound to having the pick the following skill from the group. That's great and way better since I was like... taking less than useful skills to get to the next skill if that makes sense. So I thought, that to unlock the T4 skill from let's say "support" group of skills, I had to first take a T1, T2, and T3 from that same group. This is clearly way better and thankfully it's NOT the way I thought it was!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
552 posts
3,460 battles

Do destroyers get spotting assist damage? sometimes I'm working my [edited]off, risking much but not actually taking shots that would give away my position so I'm wondering if like WoT we get spotting assist for basically being the set of eyes for the team during that enemy ships discovery and attributed damage

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
552 posts
3,460 battles

Thanks, that's good to know. It was actually shown in the bloody battle report lol but was a bit hard to notice in a sea of information. 

 

I wasn't having much success torping ships from long ranges, the target ships just change direction too often and even the BB seem to posses the turn speed enough to avoid torps once they spot them. I guess I'm not very good at it and tend to miss torp efforts most the time so instead what I've started doing is trying to get in behind the enemy unseen and trying to bum rush BB lol. Maybe this is not how they are supposed to be played but I just cant hit the bloody things unless I literally get to within 1km of these ships then show a broadside and torp them from such a range they can't really evade, even when I do it lol. This gets my ship heavily damage, sometimes killed but the damage returns tend to be at least a whole BB worth of health and of course as soon as my bum rush is spotted I let those guns with HE loose too and try setting them on fire. Thing is, it kinda works, dumb though it may seem and while they can maybe overmatch my DD frontally, all I am showing is my front and they tend to just overpen me, certainly can't stop me at least not yet.

 

This result is from basically only killing 2 BB. I just cant hit them from range or any ships really so I guess I'll keep charging them like a bum.

 

1m1gcDi.jpgfgkBnme.jpgBLCnEP7.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
9,836 posts
11,531 battles

Precisely why I don't like torps as "main weapon" they entirely rely on enemy being dummy than you being good. Of course, you can launch torps where enemy might be instead relying on lead indicator, but should enemy not play into your estimations and simply sail straight, then no torpedo hits for you:Smile_smile:

 

And again, what matters is %hp damage done, so sinking two battleships on your own or sinking two destroyers should net the same amount of exp regardless of damage numbers. And then, removing latter two cripples enemy team ability to cap, to spot and cause a commotion with torps

 

Given you're at Fushun already, deepwater torps you spot literally 3 seconds before impact, so if anything, enemy players simply preemptively change course when DD is around. Something you can tell by being spotted all the time:Smile_smile:

 

Also if they run Priority Target, the moment you switch from guns to torps and then back to guns is tell tale of torps incoming.

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
552 posts
3,460 battles

Thanks for the info. Yes I took on the Fushun precisely for it's low warning torp detection abilities as I found the Japanese T6 alternative I also use to give a little bit too much time for the target ship to try and move out of harms way. So what you're saying is that there's a skill which renders this a bit pointless? Pity. Interesting that the dmg dealt is ignored in favor of % of ships health removed but good to know. I was under the impression that more damage equals more xp so I will keep that in mind for the future in fact, since there is far less hp on a DD it makes them the preferable target especially since I will most likely encounter them as my closest first contact target worth shooting at. Yes torps a guessing game like you say... I have little experience but I try to shoot on a broadside target that's on a fairly stable course using the suggested line on screen and then I fire the second rack of torps much further behind just to guess that if he happens to turns away to towards that this guessed path will most likely be where torps will meet target but ya it's all to miss rather than hit lol... sometimes it hits but not very often and like you say, using the guns while in smoke generally gives more dmg returns but of course invites some blind shots into that same smoke screen from both the guns and torps of enemy ships since it's pretty bloody obvious that's where I am otherwise I would be spotted for shooting lol. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
9,836 posts
11,531 battles
22 hours ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

So what you're saying is that there's a skill which renders this a bit pointless? Pity.

Not so much pointless, as skill being literally working as intended - when you have the skill and somebody aims at you with main guns selected, you get number of people aiming at you. When they switch to torps, number goes down as, well, torpedoes =/= main guns. Which you can play around, by sailing on torpedoes selected most of the time, switching to guns when you actually intend on using them. Also you can play mind games, pretending to launch torps (show broadside, switch to torps, wait two-three sec, go back to guns) and then launch torps properly.

 

As much as I consider Fushun and following Gadjah Mada one of the best multipurpose DDs at their own tier, tier 8 onwards are unfortunately simply inferior variants of USN ships, so you might want to reconsider starting another line there.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
Guest
0 posts
On 9/29/2019 at 9:22 PM, Sir_Sinksalot said:

Thanks for the info. Yes I took on the Fushun precisely for it's low warning torp detection abilities as I found the Japanese T6 alternative I also use to give a little bit too much time for the target ship to try and move out of harms way. So what you're saying is that there's a skill which renders this a bit pointless? Pity. Interesting that the dmg dealt is ignored in favor of % of ships health removed but good to know. I was under the impression that more damage equals more xp so I will keep that in mind for the future in fact, since there is far less hp on a DD it makes them the preferable target especially since I will most likely encounter them as my closest first contact target worth shooting at. Yes torps a guessing game like you say... I have little experience but I try to shoot on a broadside target that's on a fairly stable course using the suggested line on screen and then I fire the second rack of torps much further behind just to guess that if he happens to turns away to towards that this guessed path will most likely be where torps will meet target but ya it's all to miss rather than hit lol... sometimes it hits but not very often and like you say, using the guns while in smoke generally gives more dmg returns but of course invites some blind shots into that same smoke screen from both the guns and torps of enemy ships since it's pretty bloody obvious that's where I am otherwise I would be spotted for shooting lol. 

FYI, I came across this the other day - might be of interest? I haven't read it all yet, but it seems to be a pretty comprehensive 'how-to' guide on torpedo-focussed game-play.

 

https://imgur.com/a/SJpbq

 

Hope you find it useful:Smile_honoring:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
552 posts
3,460 battles

Thanks guys. I'm actually finding myself player destroyers more than any other class, increasingly so. They're just interesting and fun since they offer a lot of playstyle variation so they're never really boring to play I would say. There's just many ways to play them and that's not really true of the other classes which lack that flexibility and attributes.

 

One thing I would like to know though, is it possible to combine the Advanced Firing Training skill(increased gun range) and have enough camo value(with skills, camo paint etc) to allow a destroyer spot a target and engage a target at maximum gun range yet not get spotted for shooting... to "kite" a target without being spotted?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

×