Discussion: Secondary Battery Mod2 to slot 5

[Anymn]

In this post I want to discuss the use of Secondary Battery Mod 2, the upgrade that gives -20% reload speed in slot 6. 

 

Currently, there are a lot of useful upgrades in slot 6:

• +15% AA gun performance (AAGM2)
• -12% reload for main guns, -13% turning speed (MBM3)
• -20% secondary reload speed (SBM2)
• +16% firing range (GFCSM2)
• -11% dispersion for main battery (APRM2 - USA only)

 

Now, of those four, SBM2 is considered too weak by many, many players. It's fun to use, but there are nearly no ships that can effectively benefit from this -20% reload speed, and for ships that can benefit from it (Alsace, Großer Kurfürst), MBM3, or even GFCSM2, is usually a better choice.  Therefore I would like to start a discussion about the following: Shouldn't SBM2 move to slot 5?

 

In my opinion, this would have some very interesting consequences: 

• Tier 8 ships will get acces to this upgrade, meaning it's usable on a lot of popular secondary build ships: Tirpitz, Bismarck, Massachusetts, Graf Zeppelin, Richelieu.
• Battleships have to compromise their concealment/torpedo detection in order to use it, allowing for more variation in upgrades.

 

What do you think about moving SBM2 to slot 5?

[loppantorkel]

Maybe buff it to 30% instead?

[DFens_666]

6 minutes ago, Anymn said:

What do you think about moving SBM2 to slot 5?

 

I think that would make it even worse. If you put it in 5th slot, a secondary build BB cant use either of the 2 concealment buffs. So you would be running around with ships, that are spotting from 16-18km, which probably just ends in a rather fast death, since you wont have captain skill for anti-DoT either (FP/BOS). They already have to compromise their captain skills to make secondaries useful, so you basicly cant use CE.

 

They just need to rework the entire concept of secondary build BBs at this point. In the end, you get a worse (atleast for me) build compared to a tank build, even on strong secondary ships. For me, secondary builds end at T8, because tank build ot T9+10 seems so much more effective (more damage / more game impact).

 

oh btw:

9 minutes ago, Anymn said:

GFCSM2, is usually a better choice

[Panocek]

18 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

Maybe buff it to 30% instead?

Or add additional 20% range?

[Anymn]

46 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

I think that would make it even worse. If you put it in 5th slot, a secondary build BB cant use either of the 2 concealment buffs. So you would be running around with ships, that are spotting from 16-18km, which probably just ends in a rather fast death, since you wont have captain skill for anti-DoT either (FP/BOS). They already have to compromise their captain skills to make secondaries useful, so you basicly cant use CE.

  

They just need to rework the entire concept of secondary build BBs at this point. In the end, you get a worse (atleast for me) build compared to a tank build, even on strong secondary ships. For me, secondary builds end at T8, because tank build ot T9+10 seems so much more effective (more damage / more game impact).

 

oh btw:

 

Worse? It would give more options to the players, how can that be worse? I think dropping the Concealment Mod would be a fair trade-off for extra secondary dpm, much more compared to dropping 12% main battery reload. Also, only when you take IFHE you have to drop CE for your captain. Furthermore, I think it's great to have it at tier 8 for ships like Bismarck/Massachusetts, but it indeed comes at a cost of increased visability.

[Anymn]

43 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Or add additional 20% range?

That would be wonderful, but maybe a bit OP. It would start firing at 13-14km ranges. On the other hand, you're compromising Main Battery DPM, so it could be a valid argument that it would be balanced. And it would be a severe nerf to Tirpitz, Bismarck and Massachusetts as they don't have acces to slot 6.

[DFens_666]

1 minute ago, Anymn said:

Worse? It would give more options to the players, how can that be worse? I think dropping the Concealment Mod would be a fair trade-off for extra secondary dpm, much more compared to dropping 12% main battery reload. Also, only when you take IFHE you have to drop CE for your captain. Furthermore, I think it's great to have it at tier 8 for ships like Bismarck/Massachusetts, but it indeed comes at a cost of increased visability.

 

Is it really an option tho? Im not sure if its an option if the endresult will most likely be worse than before? Being spotted at 16km while you need to close the distance without having anti-DoT skills... doesnt sounds like much fun to me.

Also there is a problem with Legendary GK, as it could slot both If you move the LM in 5th slot, then it can slot the LM + MBM3 so it doesnt work either way.

[Panocek]

19 minutes ago, Anymn said:

That would be wonderful, but maybe a bit OP. It would start firing at 13-14km ranges. On the other hand, you're compromising Main Battery DPM, so it could be a valid argument that it would be balanced. And it would be a severe nerf to Tirpitz, Bismarck and Massachusetts as they don't have acces to slot 6.

Which is case for all tier 8 ships

 

With extra range, you could actually remove AFT and put points elsewhere, getting something else while keeping roughly the same secondary range.

[Anymn]

3 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Which is case for all tier 8 ships

 

With extra range, you could actually remove AFT and put points elsewhere, getting something else while keeping roughly the same secondary range.

 

That's why I Initially suggest to move it to slot 5, so tier 8 can also use them, yet they have to compromise concealment to do so. 

 

AFT can't really be removed as a lot of other classes are using it for AA/main battery range. For them it's quite a mandatory skill.

[Anymn]

25 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Is it really an option tho? Im not sure if its an option if the endresult will most likely be worse than before? Being spotted at 16km while you need to close the distance without having anti-DoT skills... doesnt sounds like much fun to me.

Also there is a problem with Legendary GK, as it could slot both If you move the LM in 5th slot, then it can slot the LM + MBM3 so it doesnt work either way.

 

GK is an issue, yes. 

But for concealment: I think it would work sometimes, and sometimes not. But I think the decision concealment v.s. IFHE (you can drop that one for CE) v.s. secondary dpm would be a nicer one compared to main gun dpm vs. secondary gun dpm as it is now. It would give the player more options.

 

Also, some players use Target Acquisition now, and they also are able to survive (with a more tankier build, sure). 

 

[Panocek]

14 minutes ago, Anymn said:

 

That's why I Initially suggest to move it to slot 5, so tier 8 can also use them, yet they have to compromise concealment to do so. 

 

AFT can't really be removed as a lot of other classes are using it for AA/main battery range. For them it's quite a mandatory skill.

I've meant remove AFT from secondary specced captain, not skill in general. Though AA bonus is abysmal.

[DFens_666]

12 minutes ago, Anymn said:

Also, some players use Target Acquisition now, and they also are able to survive (with a more tankier build, sure). 

 

Only because this is an option, doesnt mean its viable in any way. I think its a troll-module from WG and they secretly keep giggling about it when they see how many people actually use this one. Or they dont even understand what it does themselves.

 

15 minutes ago, Anymn said:

But for concealment: I think it would work sometimes, and sometimes not. But I think the decision concealment v.s. IFHE (you can drop that one for CE) v.s. secondary dpm would be a nicer one compared to main gun dpm vs. secondary gun dpm as it is now. It would give the player more options.

 

Well, thats why i said for me the whole idea of secondary builds on T9/10 is not really viable in the first place. Put a standard tank build BB in the same place, its almost guaranteed to do better than a secondary specced ship. Secondary specs are almost pure funbuilds right now (T7-8 they are stronger when toptier, but worse when bottomtier imo).

You simply just cant push in at any moment, or you get killed. So you need to get a good opportunity to push in. Sometimes, you might not even get one. In the meantime, the same ship focusing on its Main Battery and tanking can produce better results earlier on. And a GK can push&tank and win the game even without speccing for its secondaries.

 

I tried secondary GK at first, but now im playing Tank build with it. Reason for this is:

- You dont hit DDs at longrange anyway (closerange you hit them even without secondary spec)

- You can hit Cruisers at any range basicly, but having a maingun focus enables you to delete them faster, and they have a harder time pulling your DCP if they get only 1 fire on the Superstructure.

- Against BBs, you would need IFHE again, as the smaller guns shatter on 32mm. If the enemy BB is kiting, then secondary spec would be better i suppose. But if you can rush them (f.e. even Yamasushi), you can bounce their shells and go into their broadside.

Imo little gain for gimping myself more often because you burn like a Christmas tree, and hit less with your mainguns.

[Jethro_Grey]

No.

[Lord0]

Secondary builds are too "all in" and too situational which is a shame as I like them. Sadly they said on the anniversary feed that reworking secondaries is way down their list of things to do. 

[asalonen]

The slots have themes to them. Slot 6 is about buffing one part of your offensive capabilities, and mostly they're straight-up buffs. If SBM2 feels too weak to be considered, then it might need a buff. In that slot MBM3 is arguably the best choice for any battleship, secondary build or not. 

 

You can't just move a module from slot 6 to 5. The unique upgrades for tier X are designed as alternatives to existing slot 5 or slot 6 modules, depending on what they're like.

 

The Kurfürst upgrade essentially combines MBM3 and SBM2 so you can have (most of) both. Republique upgrade is also relevant here since it makes the main battery much more suited for close-range play. 

[Animalul2012]

Buff it -25% reload -15% dispersion of secondarys +5% additional range!

[Anymn]

Do you guys agree though that SBM2 is a bit redundant in slot 6? I get the feeling that investing that slot to dpm will always give you a too big of a disadvantage in any ship. 

 

Whether it's a buff or being switched to slot 5, should anything be done?

[DFens_666]

14 minutes ago, Anymn said:

Do you guys agree though that SBM2 is a bit redundant in slot 6? I get the feeling that investing that slot to dpm will always give you a too big of a disadvantage in any ship. 

 

Whether it's a buff or being switched to slot 5, should anything be done? 

 

As i said in my first post: I think the whole secondary concept needs a rework. Would make german ships more viable maybe?

[asalonen]

3 hours ago, Anymn said:

Do you guys agree though that SBM2 is a bit redundant in slot 6? I get the feeling that investing that slot to dpm will always give you a too big of a disadvantage in any ship. 

  

Whether it's a buff or being switched to slot 5, should anything be done?

I have the module on Gneisenau, Tirpitz, Alsace and Georgia, so I don't think it's redundant. On Kurfürst and Republique I also have secondary builds, but for these two the legendary module is good and well-suited for a secondary build.

 

But secondaries in general might need some love, especially in high tiers. Extra range alone wouldn't get many more hits since the dispersion is already bad at maximum range. Less dispersion alone is a bit of a double-edged sword, since at closer distances dispersion allows you to hit something other than belt armor. Possibly the Secondary Battery Modification 2 could be -30 % reload time instead of -20 %?

 

Edit: I very recently got the Derpitz, and I've been very impressed with it running a secondary build. Especially when top tier it works wonderfully well. Massachusetts seems great as well, but unfortunately I don't have it. In T9 and T10 however, these days I'm only really impressed with Alsace: The combination of high speed and high secondary volume is combination. But especially in T10, secondary builds are mostly dead.

[BruceRKF]

I actually use the upgrade on one single ship: Yamato.

After you are done laughing, here's the simple reason why: I absolutely hate slow turrets with a passion and main battery reload mod makes it even worse. So, Yamamto's increased EM + secondary build (Secondary module 1, AFT and Manual Secondaries, no IFHE) makes turret traverse just about bearable. Yes, in most cases, a full tank build is far more effective on Yamato, but no one ever expects it and the secondaries are quite good fire starters and DD deterrents. And it's hilariously fun!

Back to topic: I agree that the module overall is next to useless and needs some kind of rework. Mabye a small additional accuracy bonus, of course there is always the question of balance and when it might be too much. Moving it to slot 5 could also work. There are a couple of ships where I would at least try to play without concealment. It's quite hard to say, apart from the module needing something.

[CptBarney]

6 hours ago, Panocek said:

Or add additional 20% range?

All three fam with 5% extra burny stuff.

 

although moving it it elsewhere would be a big help (or maybe changing or adding a skill so that it fulfills this).

[asalonen]

16 minutes ago, BruceRKF said:

I actually use the upgrade on one single ship: Yamato. After you are done laughing, here's the simple reason why: I absolutely hate slow turrets with a passion and main battery reload mod makes it even worse. So, Yamamto's increased EM + secondary build (Secondary module 1, AFT and Manual Secondaries, no IFHE) makes turret traverse just about bearable. Yes, in most cases, a full tank build is far more effective on Yamato, but no one ever expects it and the secondaries are quite good fire starters and DD deterrents. And it's hilariously fun!

I was prepared to laugh, but I checked your stats and they're much better than mine in Yamato... What's your full build like? I'm thinking 1) PT 2) EM, AR 3) BFT, SI 4) ManSec, AFT. Possibly Basic of Survivability instead of BFT?

[Panocek]

5 minutes ago, asalonen said:

I was prepared to laugh, but I checked your stats and they're much better than mine in Yamato... What's your full build like? I'm thinking 1) PT 2) EM, AR 3) BFT, SI 4) ManSec, AFT. Possibly Basic of Survivability instead of BFT?

Yamamoto with improved EM brings base turret traverse in line with Montana

[BruceRKF]

7 hours ago, asalonen said:

I was prepared to laugh, but I checked your stats and they're much better than mine in Yamato... What's your full build like? I'm thinking 1) PT 2) EM, AR 3) BFT, SI 4) ManSec, AFT. Possibly Basic of Survivability instead of BFT?

You can still laugh, I don't mind. Make it a good natured laugh instead ;)

Build (Yamamoto special captain): PM, EM, AR, SI, BoS, AFT, ManualSec, so you got it almost right. I don't use Priority target on most BBs, since I consider my awareness good enough in most cases and being one-shotted is not as much a threat in BBs as it is in cruisers. That also leaves me free to use Auxiliary Armament Survivability mod or whatever it's called (more health for AA and secondaries).

[Anymn]

22 hours ago, asalonen said:

I have the module on Gneisenau, Tirpitz, Alsace and Georgia, so I don't think it's redundant. On Kurfürst and Republique I also have secondary builds, but for these two the legendary module is good and well-suited for a secondary build.

 

But secondaries in general might need some love, especially in high tiers. Extra range alone wouldn't get many more hits since the dispersion is already bad at maximum range. Less dispersion alone is a bit of a double-edged sword, since at closer distances dispersion allows you to hit something other than belt armor. Possibly the Secondary Battery Modification 2 could be -30 % reload time instead of -20 %?

 

Edit: I very recently got the Derpitz, and I've been very impressed with it running a secondary build. Especially when top tier it works wonderfully well. Massachusetts seems great as well, but unfortunately I don't have it. In T9 and T10 however, these days I'm only really impressed with Alsace: The combination of high speed and high secondary volume is combination. But especially in T10, secondary builds are mostly dead.

 

Please tell me, how to put SBM2 on tirpitz? That would be wonderful!

 

SBM1 is of course fun for a secondary build, and a much less of a sacrifice to make compared to dropping MBM3 in order to mount SBM2.

 

Alsace is something I want to test, it looks quite promising.