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Aixin

About Graf zeppelin

Is Graf okay like it is?   

81 members have voted

  1. 1. Is Graf okay like it is?

    • Graf Zeppelin is okay like it is.
    • Graf Zeppelin bombers need a buff
    • Graf Zeppelin rockets need a buff
    • Graf Zeppelin torps need a buff.
    • All planes need a buff.
    • The ship itself needs a buff.

54 comments in this topic

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I brought Graf Zeppelin (no mistake I did it on purpose.) I noticed that it is not on the level of a normal T8 CV. I don't regret my purchase as I have fun in Graf but it's unfair if someone who is not good in cvs in Graf can't do much other than using his secondary guns as main guns. To showcase why Graf Zeppelin is worse than all other T8 CVs I will compare it to the others. I will exclude British cvs as they are almost on the same level of being useless as Graf is. 

Rockets: 12 planes on deck 8 in a flight group and two in attack run. 

My opionion: they are decent vs anything that is no dd but vs dd you most likely hit one or two rockets for 2k dmg on average. With all other cvs on T8 I could do 2 - 8k in one attack run vs dd's. Most likely it will be around 4k for each attack(other cvs) 

Torp bombers: Good vs both cruiser and battleships low alpha but you got turbo planes so you can attack more often than other cvs. They are the only plane type which actually is good. Dd hunting is not one of their strengths due to the high speed. You can't make last minit adjustments therefor you need to catch dd's off guard when you want to hit them. I have no complaints with them. 

Bombers: low aplha due to only two bombs. 14k alpha... Just to compare enterprise has 35600. Then enterprise bombs hit where you aim them but Grafs bombs can do the weirdest things. You can attack from no matter what angle with Graf but you most likely won't hit and if you hit its like 50%overpen 10%pen 20 % citadel and 20 %bounce. That being said.. In 40 Graf games I just scored a handful of double citas I just can remember two times but  It could be more (not much more tho). That being said.... Please make bombers more reliable give it one more bomb and keep the trollish nature.... Or make them more accurate and keep the two bombs or make the alpha 11k per bomb so it actually hurts if they hit. 

So much for the planes. All in all I believe graf has it strengths but they are all in secondary rubriks thus making the overall performance worse than that of another cv. For example it has good secondaries, the plane speed is awesome, but what kind of use has the plane speed if almost every bomb misses? For torps that's okay even tho the alpha is low. The planes in general are not very tanky more like the Japanese planes. Means if they stay longer than a few seconds in a strong aa ships range they will get shot down quite Quickly. (can't imagine how it must have been in aa godmode patch 8.6). 

Lets compare the flight group to other cvs... 

Graf zeppelin:

Rockets : 8 in air 4 in reverse =12

Torps 9 in air 5 in reserve=14

Bombers 8 in air 4 in reserve =12

Total 36

Ryujo: 

Rockets 8 in air 4 in reserve=12

Torps 8 in air 12 4in reserve =12

Bombers 8 in air 4 in reserve=12

Total 34

As we can see here the number of planes is just slightly higher than on a T6 CV.

For regeneration:

Graf Zeppelin

Rockets: 75 seconds

Torp: 76 seconds

Bomber:87 seconds

Total number of planes in 20.mins:

16 " new" rocket planes

15 "new" torp bombers

13 " new" bombers

Total amount of planes 80-4cuz you can't use all at the same time means 76 planes for gz. 

Ryujo:

Rockets 55 seconds

Torps 69 seconds 

Bombers 65 seconds

Total number of planes in 20 mins:

21 "new" rocket planes

17 "new" torp bomber

18 "new" bombers

Total amount of planes 90-4.

 

There you got it. Graf Zeppelin is even worse than a T6 CV when it comes to plane numbers. However I get why gz is a T8 (speed) I don't know why graf is obviously the worst T8 CV in the game and is even when it comes to numbers and thus striking power with high tier aa worse than a T6 CV. Ryujo can hit reliably with gz its pure luck when it comes to rockets and bombs. So that's my opionion with a little bit of data. Feel free to share your opionion and if we are lucky WG can solve this problem. Even tho I don't regret my purchase I am certain that 90% of this community would regret it. So don't buy it unless it's "buffed" a bit to be a T8 CV not only on paper, or you are sure that you want it with its rather unique gameplay. Looking forward to the result of the question. Hope this is okay here because I put quite much effort into this text and it would be a pity if it got deleted :) thanks in advance. 

 

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The Bombers are absolutely useless. they were good before, then they got nerfed and now i dont even start them anymore, not even if i have no more planes left. Id rather go in for the secondaries fight with a CV then use the bombers.

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[PARAZ]
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2 hours ago, Corvi said:

then they got nerfed buffed

 

There camrade. Now you do not contradict official WG statement which surely cannot be lie! :Smile_trollface:

 

2 hours ago, Karotte_marksman said:

Lets compare the flight group to other cvs... 

 

You seem to forget that GZ can mount the FCM1 upgrade which increases deck reserves by 2 for all plane types and improves respawn speed by 5% whereas Ryujo cannot.

Just saying. You should compare fully upgraded stats, not base ones to get the full picture.

 

I believe @Sunleader is the resident expert on the GZ and afaik she performs fine in his hands.

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[FHKK_]
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what the zeppelin would do well would be a return to the old dive bomber. Camber angles of 70 to 90 degrees, as it is flown on american and japanese carriers, connected with their old small target circle. I do not like rockets when my “Stukas“ and torpedoplanes do a fair amount of damage.

 

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The poll is absolutly not biased.

Maybe someone thinks that something needs to be nerfed and something to be buffed?

The whole concept of brawling CV is... interesting.

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8 hours ago, Karotte_marksman said:

snip

 

 

Comparing the number of Planes is Pretty useless to be honest.

As the Planes itself are vastly Different. And have vastly Different Capabilities that Comparisson does not really tell you anything.

Kaga is after all the CV which has Insane Reserves but that doesnt make her the Best CV in T8 either :)

The same goes for the Alpha Damage of the Drops. It makes not much sense to Compare them. Because you have different Numbers of Drops and different Chances and Repetition Speeds for Drops. :)

 

Now as for the Graf Zeppelin itself. It is is clearly the Weakest CV in T8 when you consider the Aircraft.

Its not as bad as most People make it out to be. Its just way Different in its Playstyle.

 

The Biggest Advantage of the GZ is of course:

You got Incredible Fast Planes. Which not only means you Strike more often than other CVs in the same Time and also Switch Targets over the Map much Faster. But it also means your taking way less Plane losses from Stronger AA Ships. Because your Planes pass the AA Faster which also results in the Graf Zeppelin being the CV which can actually more often get a Second or Third Drop Done with its Squadrons.

This is especially True with the Dive Bombers. As most Dive Bombers due to the Extensive movement will usually only get 1 Drop out unless your really attacking a Lone Isolated Ship somewhere. The Graf Zeppelin however will be Pretty reliably get out two Drops even against smaller Blobs thanks to the Speed at which you can do these 2 Consecutive Drops :)

 

The other Advantage the GZ has is:

You got an Incredible Tough Ship. When using the Upgrades and Skills for a Secondary Build. You get 9km Range for your Secondary Guns. And these Guns are extremely Powerful.

You got 16x150mm Guns and 12x105mm Guns on your Ship. Effectively you got a Light Cruiser Strapped onto each Side of your Ship and then two Destroyers mounted on top of it.

Even without using Manual Secondaries a T10 DD coming into your Range and being Spotted Generally has less than 1 Minute to Life. And thats assuming you dont Hit him with any Rockets and Bombs.

And thanks to the German Secondary HE Penetration Buff. You can use IFHE to get these 105mm which have a quite Strong DPS Value. To Penetrate even 32mm and thus Deal Damage to Battleships. Which is a pretty Nasty Surprise for Enemy Ships when they get close to you.

And thats not all. Your Citadel is below the Waterline and has a 40mm Deck. Making it next to Impossible to Penetrate from Close Range as even Yamato cannot Overmatch it. At the same time you Armor above the Waterline is mostly above the Threshold of most DD Guns. And thus can Reliably Bounce alot of HE Shells from Enemy DDs. The Armor is pretty Impressive as you often take barely any Damage from DDs at all.

But at the same is thin enough to let most BB Shells Pass through it when you Show Flat Broadside.

Meaning that with Graf Zeppelin you can Show Flat Broadside to an Enemy Yamato 7km away and it will need 3-5 Salvos to actually Sink you with AP because its only getting Overpenetrations into your Broadside while your Pummeling it with your Secondaries.

Thanks to that you can Place the Graf Zeppelin much closer to the Frontline which increases the number of Strikes you get thanks to your High Speed Squadrons even further. Allowing you to make even more Attack Runs. :)

 

A Smaller Advantage are of course the High Penetration of the Rockets which allows you to Pummel Battleships with them. As well as the somewhat Long Stretched Crosshair of the Rockets which somewhat outbalances your lower amount of Rockets against DDs. While your still worse against DDs than Enterprise or Shokaku. You can use your Rockets against DDs Decently. And against Cruisers or BBs your Rockets are Pretty Devastating. I often have 10k Rocket Barrages against Cruisers. And sometimes even against Battleships.

 

And another Advantage you got. Is that you can Outrun Fighters with your Bombers. If you Fly through a Fighter which then Follows you. You are faster than him if you go in a Straight line with Motorboost.

So if you Attack Different Targets in a Line just going Straight. You can actually Ignore Fighters almost entirely. Because they wont catch up to you before you have Dropped your Bombs.

And even against Solo Targets you can Catch the Fighters and then Boost Forward pressing F after leaving Enemy AA Range giving your Bombers enough time tor each Immunity before the Enemy Fighters catch up.

 

So my Results on Graf Zeppelin are pretty Consistent and not changing that much.

1757882301_StatPadding.thumb.jpg.8941d2547ebc38d2a9b36d4a87529248.jpg

 

 

 

 

Now what I do agree however. Is that the AP Bombers are currently almost useless.

You can actually make them Work by knowing the RNG and thus at least get Citadels now and then.

But the RNG at the same time also means that these Bombers are never an Reliable Threat to anyone and anything...

 

With only 2 Bombs and this Absurd RNG they are just too Weak as to really Influence a Battle. Making them more of an Reserve Plane when you Run out of Torpedo Bombers and Rocket Attackers.

So I clearly Agree that the Dive Bombers on Graf Zeppelin need a Buff. They need to get a Higher Accuracy. So the 2 Bombs you got at least Hit something. Or a Larger amount of Bombs so the RNG doesnt completely screw you over all the time.

 

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15 minutes ago, Salentine said:

where's the option that it needs a nerf?

 

It doesnt.

What needs a Nerf is CVs in General.

 

But this Topic is ONLY on the Relative Power of CVs compared to other CVs.

And in that Aspect the Graf Zeppelin is Universally Accepted to be the Weakest T8 CV in the Game.

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13 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

Comparing the number of Planes is Pretty useless to be honest.

As the Planes itself are vastly Different. And have vastly Different Capabilities that Comparisson does not really tell you anything.

Kaga is after all the CV which has Insane Reserves but that doesnt make her the Best CV in T8 either :)

The same goes for the Alpha Damage of the Drops. It makes not much sense to Compare them. Because you have different Numbers of Drops and different Chances and Repetition Speeds for Drops. :)

 

Now as for the Graf Zeppelin itself. It is is clearly the Weakest CV in T8 when you consider the Aircraft.

Its not as bad as most People make it out to be. Its just way Different in its Playstyle.

 

The Biggest Advantage of the GZ is of course:

You got Incredible Fast Planes. Which not only means you Strike more often than other CVs in the same Time and also Switch Targets over the Map much Faster. But it also means your taking way less Plane losses from Stronger AA Ships. Because your Planes pass the AA Faster which also results in the Graf Zeppelin being the CV which can actually more often get a Second or Third Drop Done with its Squadrons.

This is especially True with the Dive Bombers. As most Dive Bombers due to the Extensive movement will usually only get 1 Drop out unless your really attacking a Lone Isolated Ship somewhere. The Graf Zeppelin however will be Pretty reliably get out two Drops even against smaller Blobs thanks to the Speed at which you can do these 2 Consecutive Drops :)

 

The other Advantage the GZ has is:

You got an Incredible Tough Ship. When using the Upgrades and Skills for a Secondary Build. You get 9km Range for your Secondary Guns. And these Guns are extremely Powerful.

You got 16x150mm Guns and 12x105mm Guns on your Ship. Effectively you got a Light Cruiser Strapped onto each Side of your Ship and then two Destroyers mounted on top of it.

Even without using Manual Secondaries a T10 DD coming into your Range and being Spotted Generally has less than 1 Minute to Life. And thats assuming you dont Hit him with any Rockets and Bombs.

And thanks to the German Secondary HE Penetration Buff. You can use IFHE to get these 105mm which have a quite Strong DPS Value. To Penetrate even 32mm and thus Deal Damage to Battleships. Which is a pretty Nasty Surprise for Enemy Ships when they get close to you.

And thats not all. Your Citadel is below the Waterline and has a 40mm Deck. Making it next to Impossible to Penetrate from Close Range as even Yamato cannot Overmatch it. At the same time you Armor above the Waterline is mostly above the Threshold of most DD Guns. And thus can Reliably Bounce alot of HE Shells from Enemy DDs. The Armor is pretty Impressive as you often take barely any Damage from DDs at all.

But at the same is thin enough to let most BB Shells Pass through it when you Show Flat Broadside.

Meaning that with Graf Zeppelin you can Show Flat Broadside to an Enemy Yamato 7km away and it will need 3-5 Salvos to actually Sink you with AP because its only getting Overpenetrations into your Broadside while your Pummeling it with your Secondaries.

Thanks to that you can Place the Graf Zeppelin much closer to the Frontline which increases the number of Strikes you get thanks to your High Speed Squadrons even further. Allowing you to make even more Attack Runs. :)

 

A Smaller Advantage are of course the High Penetration of the Rockets which allows you to Pummel Battleships with them. As well as the somewhat Long Stretched Crosshair of the Rockets which somewhat outbalances your lower amount of Rockets against DDs. While your still worse against DDs than Enterprise or Shokaku. You can use your Rockets against DDs Decently. And against Cruisers or BBs your Rockets are Pretty Devastating. I often have 10k Rocket Barrages against Cruisers. And sometimes even against Battleships.

 

And another Advantage you got. Is that you can Outrun Fighters with your Bombers. If you Fly through a Fighter which then Follows you. You are faster than him if you go in a Straight line with Motorboost.

So if you Attack Different Targets in a Line just going Straight. You can actually Ignore Fighters almost entirely. Because they wont catch up to you before you have Dropped your Bombs.

And even against Solo Targets you can Catch the Fighters and then Boost Forward pressing F after leaving Enemy AA Range giving your Bombers enough time tor each Immunity before the Enemy Fighters catch up.

 

So my Results on Graf Zeppelin are pretty Consistent and not changing that much.

1757882301_StatPadding.thumb.jpg.8941d2547ebc38d2a9b36d4a87529248.jpg

 

 

 

 

Now what I do agree however. Is that the AP Bombers are currently almost useless.

You can actually make them Work by knowing the RNG and thus at least get Citadels now and then.

But the RNG at the same time also means that these Bombers are never an Reliable Threat to anyone and anything...

 

With only 2 Bombs and this Absurd RNG they are just too Weak as to really Influence a Battle. Making them more of an Reserve Plane when you Run out of Torpedo Bombers and Rocket Attackers.

So I clearly Agree that the Dive Bombers on Graf Zeppelin need a Buff. They need to get a Higher Accuracy. So the 2 Bombs you got at least Hit something. Or a Larger amount of Bombs so the RNG doesnt completely screw you over all the time.

 

dude seriously you only have 19 battles in the ship and think you know it by heart........... i have over 200 in this version and probably about 800 in the old. this ship got ***** over bye evrything. yess your planes are quick but your planes are just to weak and get shott down instantly, you scout a cap [edited]there is a firesland before you can turn you lost half the planes.

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I like GZ.....it is on weaker side of spectrum...Bombers are main problem. sometimes with perfect aim left bombs goe right, right bomb goes left and you mis GK :)

 

She needs buff to bombers, give it 3th bomber or make those to bombs very precize.

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6 minutes ago, albin322 said:

dude seriously you only have 19 battles in the ship and think you know it by heart........... i have over 200 in this version and probably about 800 in the old. this ship got ***** over bye evrything. yess your planes are quick but your planes are just to weak and get shott down instantly, you scout a cap [edited]there is a firesland before you can turn you lost half the planes.

 

Yeah Because I dont have over 200 Games in Graf Zeppelin after Rework either.....

 

Maybe you Should look up the Stats before you make such Statements. Because Obviously the Screenshot above is just the Battles I played during the last few Weeks so during the current Game Version.

It makes no Sense to Post Results you got half a Year ago when since then the Playing Field has massively Changed.

 

And you have 200 Games after Rework. Not in the current Version. The Current Version of the Game has Changed several Times during the Rework.

Have you even Played the Graf Zeppelin since the Friesland got Added ??? Because no Offense to you. But Friesland has only been Released on 4th September. And I do not find any Matches for you in Graf Zeppelin after that Time :)

 

Maybe you should not make empty Claims and instead take your Graf Zeppelin and try it out for a Spin now and then.

Talking about a Ship you have not even Played in the current Update is not really convincing you know.

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17 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

Yeah Because I dont have over 200 Games in Graf Zeppelin after Rework either.....

 

Maybe you Should look up the Stats before you make such Statements. Because Obviously the Screenshot above is just the Battles I played during the last few Weeks so during the current Game Version.

It makes no Sense to Post Results you got half a Year ago when since then the Playing Field has massively Changed.

 

And you have 200 Games after Rework. Not in the current Version. The Current Version of the Game has Changed several Times during the Rework.

Have you even Played the Graf Zeppelin since the Friesland got Added ??? Because no Offense to you. But Friesland has only been Released on 4th September. And I do not find any Matches for you in Graf Zeppelin after that Time :)

 

Maybe you should not make empty Claims and instead take your Graf Zeppelin and try it out for a Spin now and then.

Talking about a Ship you have not even Played in the current Update is not really convincing you know.

since your being a [edited] i can also tell you that the developers/wg agrees with me and said so in the last stream = the ship is going to get buffed. so you can take your opinion and shove it. 

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3 minutes ago, albin322 said:

since your being a [edited] i can also tell you that the developers/wg agrees with me and said so in the last stream = the ship is going to get buffed. so you can take your opinion and shove it. 

 

Thats Great News actually. Since Graf Zeppelin is one of my Favorite Ships.

 

Albeit it also means your Reading ability is just as Bad as your ability to Fact Check things and be Honest with your own Statements.

 

As you apparently did not notice it.

I Clearly Stated that Graf Zeppelin is currently the Weakest of the T8 CVs and also that the Dive Bombers need to be Buffed.

 

But hey. Why let some Facts get in the way of your little Rant about me right :)

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Vor 5 Minuten, albin322 sagte:

since your being a [edited]

He calls you out for being dishonest and you call him an edited... Ayayaya. 

 

Come on man Sunleader writes a lot but he knows stuff 

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Graf Zeppelin holds a special place in my heart as being my first CV since the rework, she looks gorgeous too, but she does need a small buff in my opinion.

 

I think the aircraft could do with a small aircraft restoration time decrease (by about 10s) and VASTLY increased accuracy on the AP bombs, plus a bit more pen.

 

The AP bombs are the biggest joke in my opinion, rockets are good, torps are fast but the bombs... they are very underwhelming and unreliable.

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9 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

He calls you out for being dishonest and you call him an edited... Ayayaya. 

 

Come on man Sunleader writes a lot but he knows stuff 

indeed and all that he knows after 19 battles im so impressed. i have played this ship sins rts and all i can say it got nerfed into the ground and when/where was i dishonest ? 

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Just now, albin322 said:

indeed and all that he knows after 19 battles im so impressed. i have played this ship sins rts and all i can say it got nerfed into the ground and when/where did i lie ? 

The fact that he made it work should at least tell you that @Sunleader knows his crap, you don't need RTS experience to know the current meta.

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1 minute ago, _NLForces_ said:

The fact that he made it work should at least tell you that @Sunleader knows his crap, you don't need RTS experience to know the current meta.

 

and i have over 230 games since the rework started so whats your point ? i can have a opinion about how to cut a onion that does not make me a expert on it. 

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6 minutes ago, albin322 said:

indeed and all that he knows after 19 battles im so impressed. i have played this ship sins rts and all i can say it got nerfed into the ground and when/where did i lie ? 

Errr...

 

You do realize that the 19 battles is for a limited time period, right (after 0.8.8 release?).

 

They currently have 223 battles in post-rework GZ as you can see from their profile.

 

Also, why are you going off so harshly against someone who agrees with you?

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3 minutes ago, albin322 said:

 

and i have over 230 games since the rework started so whats your point ? i can have a opinion about how to cut a onion that does not make me a expert on it. 

 

Then why are you discrediting Sunleader for his opinion? (quote below)

 

1 hour ago, albin322 said:

dude seriously you only have 19 battles in the ship and think you know it by heart........... i have over 200 in this version and probably about 800 in the old. this ship got ***** over bye evrything. yess your planes are quick but your planes are just to weak and get shott down instantly, you scout a cap [edited]there is a firesland before you can turn you lost half the planes.

 

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The Zeppelin is in a bad place. It's not unplayable garbage like I initially thought, but it is -- in my opinion -- the weakest tier 8 carrier by some distance, and more importantly lacks identity. I guess the idea is supposed to be that the long range torpedoes carry the day, but in my experience they do too little damage to compensate for the small and unreliable AP bombs, and the unimpressive rockets.

 

I do like how fast the planes are, because IMO the Zeppelin is the only CV who doesn't really need to care about defensive fighters. You can speed boost out of their range most of the time, which is always fun to do. I just wish she felt more comfortable to play, all around. I openly admit I haven't played the Zeppelin that much, but that's largely because of all the T8 carriers I've played she feels the worst and most uncomfortable (with the exception of being shoved into T10 games with my stock Shokaku. More like Shockaku.)

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Vor 4 Minuten, albin322 sagte:

im not discredeting his opinion im saying my own who does not align with his........................

Just say it like you said just now from the start then ☆

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Vor 8 Stunden, El2aZeR sagte:

 

There camrade. Now you do not contradict official WG statement which surely cannot be lie! :Smile_trollface:

 

 

You seem to forget that GZ can mount the FCM1 upgrade which increases deck reserves by 2 for all plane types and improves respawn speed by 5% whereas Ryujo cannot.

Just saying. You should compare fully upgraded stats, not base ones to get the full picture.

 

I believe @Sunleader is the resident expert on the GZ and afaik she performs fine in his hands.

I got that :) however I consider the stealth upgrade to be more useful thus didn't put it into consideration. Sorry. 

Vor 16 Minuten, albin322 sagte:

indeed and all that he knows after 19 battles im so impressed. i have played this ship sins rts and all i can say it got nerfed into the ground and when/where was i dishonest ? 

He has tons of more battles Than that is like number 30 in wows stats and numbers and you question that he does not know that ship? You can do that for me I have just 40 battles. I just wrote down my opionion on this ship. Guess what I actually am better in Zeppelin than Lexington. (I don't know how tho) 

 

@Sunleaderaa is a bit to weak in my opionion but this ship is also to weak especially if aa gets buffed. However I noticed that I often can't get a second strike with DBs due to the massive turning circle. What am I doing wrong? 

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