submarines SUBMARINES - discussion, feedback, opinions

[poopooo]

Even at the risk of appearing heavy, personally I think the best way to implement the submarines would be the way I posted on the forum some time ago.

I think that a slightly modified version of the steel ocean game would be the best, a more balanced way of using the submarines, in which any ship could counteract them since in periscope depth they could be shot, and only ships armed with loads of depth could destroy them when they are deeper when the submarines try to escape from the area.

Separately to counter submarines at great depth and standing still they could be completely invisible and should wait for the enemy to move away in order to emerge safely.

 

 

 

[Hexxas]

3 minutes ago, TunaRoll said:

A good BB player tanks damage (since he has the health pool and armor to do that..) to let keep his friendly DDs and Cruiser do their job and pushes in when its needed (brawling, presence). But with subs, they will camp  on max range or behind islands  like cruisers in the current HE-meta. The matches will feel even more booring and slow. It just seems like a decline in engaging gameplay and fun.

then why arent thease good "BB" players in Random?

[TunaRoll]

Vor 6 Minuten, Hexxas sagte:

I was part of the testing phase back in the days when WG wanted to make change and yes they didn hear ,
but CC where after the CV change right away , the dev team didnt get a chance to collet the data,
becouse the CCs did theire whining , i see the same thing happening to the subs , mabee give the dev team
time to collect the data , instead of just shooting it down right away..
Honestly people that shot it down before its even tested and collected data , they do it for only 1 reason ,
that thats becosue they dont like the new challenges it brings ...
mabee Wargaming should make and sandbox version of the game that sticks completely to the old ways,
and peeple that dont like new things or game mechanics  can go there to play ...

....or just keeping the subs in a separat mode forever. So people can choose if they want to play with the class or not.

[IanH755]

It's a been a while since I've played (over 3 months) so maybe it's just me lost the touch for a bit but this mode feels very "busy" to me with teams ignoring more dangerous ships in more dangerous positions to rush in and bag a Sub.

 

I'm honestly not sure how much value this testing will be TBH if the games continue like this and don't settle down to a more realistic PvP battle.

[TunaRoll]

Vor 1 Minute, Hexxas sagte:

then why arent thease good "BB" players in Random?

This is a whole different discussion, we shouldnt discuss it on this thread. This is about subs and how they will change the game.

[Hexxas]

Just now, TunaRoll said:

This is a whole different discussion, we shouldnt discuss it on this thread. This is about subs and how they will change the game.

you started it , by saying good BB players.....
well they are not in the random games i  play as dd or cv and i got more than enough videos to prove my statement ..

 

[BLUB__BLUB]

3 minutes ago, Hexxas said:

then why arent thease good "BB" players in Random?

..because they want a slow, camping gameplay,

so they can sit at map border admiring the scenery - and that is why WG will give them subs? 

[Hexxas]

5 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

..because they want a slow, camping gameplay,

so they can sit at map border admiring the scenery - and that is why WG will give them subs? 

Atleast Subs can force them to move  and start think . cv been try to teach them that for a long time now ,
bb is very easy to kill if they dont move :P

 

[TunaRoll]

Vor 3 Minuten, Hexxas sagte:

you started it , by saying good BB players.....
well they are not in the random games i  play as dd or cv and i got more than enough videos to prove my statement ..

 

Well i kinda did, but that is how BBs are SUPPOSED to play.

[Peroidas]

What do you guys say about CV balance is hard to understand for me. Damage potential of post-rework CVs is rather poor. What's more, you have to choose - either help team with spotting, fighting DDs etc or you help with fighters - reacting to air enemy attacks with own fighters or actually try damage enemy. You can't do all, as you have single squad and can't be everywhere at once. 

 

Like when you spot, you want to keep squad alive as long as possible, so you loiter on the edge of AA bubble rather than attack. 

When you fly around to drop fighters - you can't attack. 

And whey you attack, you are rarely where you need to spot or drop fighter to save friendly ship from air attack.

 

Taking into account that you have to hide that huge block somewhere, as on many maps they are visible from 1/2-1/3 map length, your planes fly for ages. And when they finally arrive, they can deliver damage comparable to single BB shell (cit damage for single BB shell is around 10-12k, very close to 3x5,5k for torps or similar to bombs). And each BB fire 8-9 such shells every 20-30 seconds, while planes need over a minute to arrive at destination. 

Against TIX and TX ships, I can only engage single ones, as groups will often annihilate planes even before attack. And if a squad is completely crushed, you have only one other. If that is shot down too, you are crippled till the end of game.

 

For every DD driver unhappy about respawning planes, maybe we could stop torpedo respawn too?

 

And for subs - I tried today, and I am not impressed. 

Your view range is poor, your camo on surface is a bit better than best DDs,  but you are slow  and have poor turn rate so you wouldn't be able to turn away if you spot enemy ship.

Underwater you barely see anything and ships constantly appear and disappear, making long range ping impossible.

You need to face bow or stern towards enemy, or else torps wont fire. 

Torps launched underwater will not hit surface ships, unless homing.

Pinging over long distance is very hard, as you can't even know where your ping landed, and before it reloads, target had moved a lot. Also, if you lose LOS to target, you loose your ping. 

 

[Eternus_Damnatio]

41 minutes ago, Hexxas said:

Again with the stats ...  really not a good argument not to implement subs
funny people always run to the stats like its the best thing ever , its not , tbh i do not care about stats ,
i care about getting the job done , and that mean i die alot to block peoeple from caps  ect.
and as cv i do alot of spoting for the team loosing about of planes , and i always  try to protect they dds
even when it cost my planes . Guess thats worthless since im not a unicom player and i do think team instead of i

 

Oh I have to reply to this -
Again with the stats lmao that was the first time I have even mentioned any stats and it was relevant to your reply to me where you make assumptions about how I only think of myself when playing not the team.
The only person stat obsessed here is you so ok you want me to go on about stats lets go then -
You claim you play for the team well your stats show that whatever it is you are doing is failing badly and that you have a complete lack of knowledge about the game.
If you were a valuable member that contributes to the team you would have a better win rate that is a simple fact and I will leave it at that.
Oh and saying there are no good BB players in randoms again shows your ignorance there are plenty of good BB players that understand how to play their ships properly.
 

[Hexxas]

3 minutes ago, Peroidas said:

What do you guys say about CV balance is hard to understand for me. Damage potential of post-rework CVs is rather poor. What's more, you have to choose - either help team with spotting, fighting DDs etc or you help with fighters - reacting to air enemy attacks with own fighters or actually try damage enemy. You can't do all, as you have single squad and can't be everywhere at once. 

 

As when you spot, you want to keep squad alive as long as possible, so you loiter on the edge of AA bubble rather than attack. 

 

Taking into account that you have to hide that huge block somewhere, as on many maps they are visible from 1/2-1/3 map length, your planes fly for ages. And when they finally arrive, they can deliver damage comparable to single BB shell (cit damage for single BB shell is around 10-12k, very close to 3x5,5k for torps or similar to bombs). And each BB fire 8-9 such shells every 20-30 seconds, while planes need over a minute to arrive at destination. 

Against TIX and TX ships, I can only engage single ones, as groups will often annihilate planes even before attack. And if a squad is completely crushed, you have only one other. If that is shot down too, you are crippled till the end of game.

 

For every DD driver unhappy about respawning planes, maybe we could stop torpedo respawn too?

 

And for subs - I tried today, and I am not impressed. 

Your view range is poor, your camo on surface is a bit better than best DDs,  but you are slow  and have poor turn rate so you wouldn't be able to turn away if you spot enemy ship.

Underwater you barely see anything and ships constantly appear and disappear, making long range ping impossible.

You need to face bow or stern towards enemy, or else torps wont fire. 

Torps launched underwater will not hit surface ships, unless homing.

Pinging over long distance is very hard, as you can't even know where your ping landed, and before it reloads, target had moved a lot. Also, if you lose LOS to target, you loose your ping. 

 

i actual say that wargaming should put a maxium of torpedos on dds , but that havent happen ,
tbh there is no reason not to put a torpedo limit on dds , they have guns as well that fire 9-15 km ..
carriers have 2nd guns 6-8 km unless you spec for 2nd guns spec , no cv player would do that cost to much
on skill points and ramming .
i mean we still have limited planes , and yes the regen very slowly , where the DDs can just keep firing
torpedos wiht out ever running emty... and they say cv ruins the game... gues what massive torp spamming ruins the game ,
and not just in random , but if you played clan battles 3 shimas and the fill up the cap circle with torps..

you can ask you self why havent they made thease change to DD ?
 

back to topic , subs will make the game more interesting for players thats like the game ,
and waht to see new things , and would be a good counter to cv harrashment , cv now have to watch out for dds, cas , bbs , and subs ..
all of them can really hurt a cv and not just at close ranges :)

[Procrastes]

1 hour ago, Hexxas said:

I do not get why people is so afraid of new things in games..

It's a psychology thing. 

 

People, as a group, tend to be resistant to change. We know what we have, and we fear the unknown. No doubt about 300 000 years ago, when one monkey said, "hey, guys, let's get down from off these trees and go out on the savannah and look for food?", most of the older monkeys were all like, "nah, that's not gonna work, back in my day we stuck to the trees and that was that, and besides there are sure to be lions and all sortsa bad stuff out there", and they stayed on their safe little branches. Luckily for humanity to come, enough monkeys* followed the one with bright new ideas, and here we all are, with access to fire and running water and internet and all kinds of neat stuff.

 

Change is a vital and necessary element of multiplayer online PvP games like World of Warships. If the game stops evolving and offering new stuff, it risks stagnation as players start moving elsewhere. Of course, players may also leave if they decide that a game has changed for the worse, and it's probably safe to say that keeping everyone happy is quite an impossible task. It doesn't hurt to try, though, and if I were Wargaming, I'd maybe focus less on making a new ship class such as submarines fun to play, and more on making it fun to play against - at least initially.** Ideally, of course, it should be both - but making that happen will probably take a lot of tinkering, balancing and fine-tuning.

 

 

* Some of which were then eaten by lions. Such is the price of progress.

** The opposite of what they did with the CV rework, in other words.

[Hexxas]

3 minutes ago, Eternus_Damnatio said:

Oh I have to reply to this -
Again with the stats lmao that was the first time I have even mentioned any stats and it was relevant to your reply to me where you make assumptions about how I only think of myself when playing not the team.
The only person stat obsessed here is you so ok you want me to go on about stats lets go then -
You claim you play for the team well your stats show that whatever it is you are doing is failing badly and that you have a complete lack of knowledge about the game.
If you were a valuable member that contributes to the team you would have a better win rate that is a simple fact and I will leave it at that.

 

yes well i ben playing over 200+ ships  , but again i DONT care for my stats , never have and never will.
so use my stats as excuse to call me a bad player , but the fact is you dont know what i been upgainst or whom i been playing.
and win rating is a team effort ,  i play mostly my tier 8 CVs and guess what 80% its against tier 10 and 9s and our planes are not
tough enough agains tier 9 and 10 aa.. ships like Desmoin , salem , dom.. moskva , neptune and now even some dd rips our planes
a part . And tbh i dont like playing DD , Ca and BB , but im forced to becosue of the events , so i do it , but stats never been my thing ,
infact i was against it ever made it to the game back then and i still am ...

[Hexxas]

12 minutes ago, Hexxas said:

yes well i been playing over 200+ ships  , but again i DONT care for my stats , never have and never will.
so use my stats as excuse to call me a bad player , but the fact is you dont know what i been upgainst or whom i been playing.
and win rating is a team effort ,  i play mostly my tier 8 CVs and guess what 80% its against tier 10 and 9s and our planes are not
tough enough agains tier 9 and 10 aa.. ships like Desmoin , salem , dom.. moskva , neptune , minotaur and now even some dd rips our planes
a part . And tbh i dont like playing DD , Ca and BB , but im forced to becouse of the events , so i do it , but stats never been my thing ,
infact i was against it ever made it to the game back then and i still am ...
and if you a good player you allso know stats aint everything , and if people dont play together you loose ..
BB staying at the blue line trying to farm theire stats and kills while de and ca get slaughter becouse no team play in random ..
a lot of reasons why stats shouldnt have been implemented into the game .
one of them is Name calling , like Noob, potatoe ect.. and another on is the stats riders that use the stats flame other players ,
and we do have alot of thouse in randoms ..
But its  here and i accept it , but i just dont care for my stats and never will.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[invicta2012]

17 minutes ago, Procrastes said:

Change is a vital and necessary element of multiplayer online PvP games like World of Warships. If the game stops evolving and offering new stuff, it risks stagnation as players start moving elsewhere.

Unfortunately, no. What is needed is choice, not change. If WG cannot manage to maintain a server farm which can offer different game modes and instances rather than trying to dump lots of ideas in one mode, then the game has no future at all, as they proved with World Of Warplanes.

 

From what I've seen so far - about a dozen games or so - Submarines are more likely to cause stalemate than anything else. The combination of ships above which can strike without risk (CVs) and those which can hide below (Subs) is not fun in the end game, especially when the main enemy of the sub is the smallest and most vulnerable ship class in the game. It just becomes a game of chip-and-wait. 

 

I didn't enjoy playing a DD in this mode at all, btw. The idea that DDs - or cruisers -  can circle above an enemy for any period of time is nonsense. Every ship that tried to defend against a sub got spotted, focused, sunk, especially at the end game where everyone has taken damage and is vulnerable to a couple of well-aimed salvos. 

 

Depth charge effect is too random - it needs focus, rather like the Priority Target structure on AA.

 

DDs cannot out turn subs, they are spotted so late there is no room for positioning, and being spotted is really dangerous... overall counterplay feels random and awkward.

[Eternus_Damnatio]

11 minutes ago, Hexxas said:

yes well i ben playing over 200+ ships  , but again i DONT care for my stats , never have and never will.
so use my stats as excuse to call me a bad player , but the fact is you dont know what i been upgainst or whom i been playing.
and win rating is a team effort ,  i play mostly my tier 8 CVs and guess what 80% its against tier 10 and 9s and our planes are not
tough enough agains tier 9 and 10 aa.. ships like Desmoin , salem , dom.. moskva , neptune and now even some dd rips our planes
a part . And tbh i dont like playing DD , Ca and BB , but im forced to becosue of the events , so i do it , but stats never been my thing ,
infact i was against it ever made it to the game back then and i still am ...

It is not an excuse they show that the way you are playing is not beneficial to the team, who you have played against is irrelevant everyone gets the same MM.
Yes winning is a team thing and as I have said multiple times the more you contribute to the team the better your chances of winning and you are not contributing enough that is a fact i'm afraid.
Your planes suffer when up tiered again every ship that gets up tiered faces the same issues you are not alone in this nor a special case there either.
I agree stats are not everything however they do give you most of the picture on how someone is performing etc.

[DarthSoprano]

They are just Kamikazes  with awkward torpedo firing angles that handle like T4 carriers. You also don't have guns so youliterally have nothing to do during reloads.

The only new feature they bring to the table is homing torpedoes. However the sonar ping is very unintuitive due to the lost sense of distance and speed when submerged.

On the other side no surface ship would ever find such a feature a good addition to the game. For surface ships these torpedo boats are just another headache to deal with, damaging/killing them is not only risky but also gives little reward/satisfaction, since their utility is much lower than that of a DD.

Visually the subs are also extremely underwhelming, there is nothing to see when under water, on top of that ships are highlighted for gameplay purposes, which makes the game look even shittier. When surfaced, that boat model of yours is just, a tiny tube with a toilet sized cylinder on top of it.

CVs vs Subs. Don't even start this subject. No one wants either side to have an advantage over the other.

[Hexxas]

11 minutes ago, Eternus_Damnatio said:

It is not an excuse they show that the way you are playing is not beneficial to the team, who you have played against is irrelevant everyone gets the same MM.
Yes winning is a team thing and as I have said multiple times the more you contribute to the team the better your chances of winning and you are not contributing enough that is a fact i'm afraid.
Your planes suffer when up tiered again every ship that gets up tiered faces the same issues you are not alone in this nor a special case there either.
I agree stats are not everything however they do give you most of the picture on how someone is performing etc.

not really dude , and i contribute what i can to the team , but i do see dd players that refuse to go into the cap zone , in  my game , even thou i plant my fighters there ,
thats not bad play from me , thats team play but one sidede.  i also see BB run away when a few ships getting near instead of fighting , even thou i support them.
now thats not my fault im trying to be a team player , but its random and people only think of theire stats and kills and that ruins the game ...
but you can take you win rating and your stats and put them where the sun aint shining .. i know for a fact i do what i have to do , hunting dds , puting fighters up and helping out , when flanks get over runs and stop the caps as the enemy try to take it and i spot as well when i get asked. ... now im doing my part  insure the team effort. But random games are not like that they tend to focus only on theire stats and kills .. and i do feel like the sub class will make people think team reather on theire own stats ..

[TunaRoll]

Vor 46 Minuten, Procrastes sagte:

It's a psychology thing. 

 

... it's probably safe to say that keeping everyone happy is quite an impossible task. It doesn't hurt to try, though, ...

 

 

* Some of which were no doubt eaten by lions. Such is the price of progress.

** The opposite of what they did with the CV rework, in other words.

.

[Procrastes]

11 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

Unfortunately, no. What is needed is choice, not change. If WG cannot manage to maintain a server farm which can offer different game modes and instances rather than trying to dump lots of ideas in one mode, then the game has no future at all, as they proved with World Of Warplanes.

 

From what I've seen so far - about a dozen games or so - Submarines are more likely to cause stalemate than anything else. The combination of ships above which can strike without risk (CVs) and those which can hide below (Subs) is not fun in the end game, especially when the main enemy of the sub is the smallest and most vulnerable ship class in the game. It just becomes a game of chip-and-wait. 

 

I didn't enjoy playing a DD in this mode at all, btw. The idea that DDs - or cruisers -  can circle above an enemy for any period of time is nonsense. Every ship that tried to defend against a sub got spotted, focused, sunk, especially at the end game where everyone has taken damage and is vulnerable to a couple of well-aimed salvos. 

 

Depth charge effect is too random - it needs focus, rather like the Priority Target structure on AA.

 

DDs cannot out turn subs, they are spotted so late there is no room for positioning, and being spotted is really dangerous... overall counterplay feels random and awkward.

Your points of concern are all valid ones.

 

Of all tasks that follow the introduction of a new ship class, maintaining game balance is surely the most challenging. WoWs is a game of play and counterplay, and if one class gets an advantage over another, there will be a chain reaction where the effects will be felt by all. Getting the DD vs. Sub play/counterplay right will probably be the most demanding task for Wargaming - but also the most vital one, since a lot of the gameplay is focused around spotting and counter-spotting. If destroyers are outspotted and gunned down with too much ease, then their allied cruisers and battleships will be left in the dark and thus more inclined to stay back and camp the borders. CV:s probably won't suffer from being counterspotted by subs, but giving CV:s an even more influential role than they already have seems a bit questionable in my opinion. As a DD main I don't mind a challenge, but I like to have a fighting chance. 

 

I have not yet played either against a submarine or in one, so this not a whine post - I am merely ruminating on your observations. Personally I believe it should be perfectly possible to make submarines fit well into the game, but judging from what you just wrote, I guess we may have some way to go in order to get there?

[TunaRoll]

Vor 48 Minuten, Procrastes sagte:

It's a psychology thing. 

 

People, as a group, tend to be resistant to change. We know what we have, and we fear the unknown. No doubt about 300 000 years ago, when one monkey said, "hey, guys, let's get down from off these trees and go out on the savannah and look for food?", most of the older monkeys were all like, "nah, that's not gonna work, back in my day we stuck to the trees and that was that, and besides there are sure to be lions and all sortsa bad stuff out there", and they stayed on their safe little branches. Luckily for humanity to come, enough monkeys* followed the one with bright new ideas, and here we all are, with access to fire and running water and internet and all kinds of neat stuff.

 

Change is a vital and necessary element of multiplayer online PvP games like World of Warships. If the game stops evolving and offering new stuff, it risks stagnation as players start moving elsewhere. Of course, players may also leave if they decide that a game has changed for the worse, and it's probably safe to say that keeping everyone happy is quite an impossible task. It doesn't hurt to try, though, and if I were Wargaming, I'd maybe focus less on making a new ship class such as submarines fun to play, and more on making it fun to play against - at least initially.** Ideally, of course, it should be both - but making that happen will probably take a lot of tinkering, balancing and fine-tuning.

 

 

* Some of which were no doubt eaten by lions. Such is the price of progress

** The opposite of what they did with the CV rework, in other words.

It's a psychology thing. 

 

... it's probably safe to say that keeping everyone happy is quite an impossible task. It doesn't hurt to try, though, ...

 

 

* Some of which were no doubt eaten by lions. Such is the price of progress.

** The opposite of what they did with the CV rework, in other words.

But there is a solution to this - put the subs in an all time separat mode and let random as it is right now. So people can choose if they want to play with subs or not. Both sides would be happy. Also someone who does not like the class can still enjoy his game and maybe later on he wants to try it out. He is not forced to do anything. Thats the only right way imo - two separat game modes. :) People dont like to get forced to do new things but they like to have a choice. We are also adaptable, so our decision can change within time. That is why having a choice is great, awesome und somewhat natural. That is also a pure psychology thing :)

[Hexxas]

3 minutes ago, TunaRoll said:

It's a psychology thing. 

 

... it's probably safe to say that keeping everyone happy is quite an impossible task. It doesn't hurt to try, though, ...

 

 

* Some of which were no doubt eaten by lions. Such is the price of progress.

** The opposite of what they did with the CV rework, in other words.

But there is a solution to this - put the subs in an all time separat mode and let random as it is right now. So people can choose if they want to play with subs or not. Both sides would be happy. Also someone who does not like the class can still enjoy his game and maybe later on he wants to try it out. He is not forced to do anything. Thats the only right way imo - two separat game modes. :) People dont like to get forced to do new things but they like to have a choice. We are also adaptable, so our decision can change within time. That is why having a choice is great, awesome und somewhat natural. That is also a pure psychology thing :)

What is the solution to clan battle then ?
Cv is not allowed , and if subs not allowed
then it excludes alot of players , and it will become static .
so whats the solutions on that ?

And is it okay to excluede people that only play certain ship ?
( if you say yes to this then is diskrimination )
 

[TunaRoll]

Vor 5 Minuten, Hexxas sagte:

What is the solution to clan battle then ?
Cv is not allowed , and if subs not allowed
then it excludes alot of players , and it will becosme static .
so whats the solutions on that ?

 

There could be seasons with CVs/subs and seasons without them? Just like there are seasons with different tiers, its just changing from time to time and you can choose if you want to play that specific season or not.  Currently im more worried about random and ranked mode since its what the majority of players are playing.  (((But im sure that clan battles need to have a lot of balancing first..right now its a 2 ship meta, so there is a lot of work for WG )))

[Eternus_Damnatio]

1 minute ago, TunaRoll said:

There could be seasons with CVs/subs and without them? Just like there are seasons with different tiers, its just changing from time to time.

Except most clans are saying they do not want cv's as they ruin gameplay and they may well go make their own system for CB's.