submarines SUBMARINES - discussion, feedback, opinions

[BLUB__BLUB]

2 hours ago, Capra76 said:

 

The question I have is will anyone play DD once these things go live?

Yes they will. My usual divvy is a DD main and he thinks it is hilarious to kill them. 

One game on the test server he killed all of them. I had to be very fast in my CV to beat him to it.

When we played subs he enjoyed that too, so indeed there is a risk that many people will change to playing subs. 

 

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I mean they seem to be better than DD at most of their key roles, they're better at spotting, seem to have more effective offensive capability (especially if DD's movement is even further reduced), are much less affected by DD countermeasures, what is left for DD to do?  An ASW role that is so basic it makes the CV rework look like 3 dimensional chess, and they won't be able to do that anyway thanks to subs spotting advantage.

Hold on. They do not spot better, because if they surface in spotting range they are spotted too. 

CV can kill them in one drop. He doesn't need multiple drops or multiple flights. The subs are much more vulnerable.

 

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Are we going back to the 2016 torpedo soup meta but with even less counters? Are subs going to replace DD and leave us with a 1-5-1-5 meta with BB screaming at the one CL player for not protecting them or is it going to be a complete reversal with CL being the only viable surface class?

I had very little problems with them when I was in the Queen Elizabeth. 

Usually sank one of the subs, if I could get him, and sure went right in cap with that fat BB. 

But must say it wasn't representative as most surface ships were bots. 

And the subs were of course not experienced players, while I was in the BB.

 

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I'm at a loss as to how this is all going to develop.

We'll see I guess. The test server usually had 4 (player) subs each side, and then 1 or 2 surface ships. Rest bots.

It went more like, "man FF these bots, I want to kill the subs go away nasty bots". 

 Can't really tell from that. But indeed we have bad experiences in the past. 

 

Q: Did you participate in the public sub test? 

[Aethervoxx]

You have a great name for a Sub Commander, Blub_Blub, lol.  

[Nexis_Finn]

Blubb_Blubb, i fully agree with you 

No one would drive a submarine as a spotter. I got a funny head-cinema about that 

 

These public tests were really not representative at all (i fully agree with that too).

So all the conclusions of this public test do not have any value.

The BB's, in about 93% of all cases, was driven by bots, which drove their bb stubborn like a 1st-day-newbie into the center of the map. And presented their hitpoints on the silver platter ^^

Even as submarine it took me a lot of effort to reach, torp and kill the enemy bot-BB's, before they got killed from my overwater-teammates. It was like a time-race to get a bb-kill. 

If i got hunted by a bot-dd, i survived it at most, because bots are dumb. Human-dd's have mostly successfully killed my submarine.

 

It will only be representative, if 100% of all match-participants are human players, like in a real random battle. Then we all can build our real worthy opinion how submarines will influence or change the game in point of random-battles. 

All previous hates are based on a test, of what would happen, if WG would integrate submarines only into co-op battles.

 

I hope many players participate unprejudiced in that new pvp-only submarine-test. In all ship-types.

I am looking forward to fight with a submarine against a enemy team out of 100% humans. 

 

Have all a nice weekend. 

Nice weekend even to my already 10 haters 

[xe_N_on]

Am 19.5.2020 um 00:07, _Nexis981_ sagte:

Whats actually the task of destroyers? Just spot enemy ships, torping out of stealth and annoy enemy battleships and cruisers by firing he out of the smoke, like a baby-smolensk.

Submarines will finally change this, then they have finally to concentrate on protecting the battleships of the own team, by hunting submarines. Teamwork would get more important.

 

I really like to see destroyers having more historically correct task. They are mostly meant to protect lager ships as BBs and CVs from subs and torps from other DDs as well as give additional anti-air support. With their smaller cannons they could in fact damage the upper structures of larger ships as BBs/CAs. Although this happens in several conflicts between US and IJN, such attacks were more out of desperation - most destroyer didn't survive such an attack. However, especially US DDs with their automatic fire control systems that allowed evading in zig-zag while reliable shooting shells at target could be really annoying targets.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_off_Samar

 

However, historically DDs were also never main targets for air attacks or other ships. They were mostly ignored by larger ships is there were more important and dangerous targets to shoot at. But with the hit rate of main cannons in WoWs it is very easy for an cruiser to delete an DD in 2 to 3 salvos - which maybe take ideally  10 to 15 secs. Cruisers like Venezia even can one-shot DDs. Same is true for skilled CV players. It cost CVs or the cruiser not much to delete an spotted DD. And that is what completely will prevent destroyers being any escort for larger ships, because they die fast at very low effort.

 

So the situation in WoWs can not be adapted historically correct without radically changes to the whole game play, which won't happen. Therefore any change in this direction would only be a hard nerf for DDs resulting in no one playing DDs anymore but switching to subs. Like me next Wednesday ;-)

[Capra76]

16 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Yes they will. My usual divvy is a DD main and he thinks it is hilarious to kill them. 

One game on the test server he killed all of them.

 

Against bots on the test server (even if the subs were human), how applicable do you think that will be on a live server.

[lovelacebeer]

Suffice to say there is a whole lot of data that's still needed, because on the PTS it was far too heavy on suicidal bots as everyone only wanted to play DDs or Subs. Also people really were not playing to win but rather just going all guns blazing. 

 

Although it was worryingly easy to shot gun kill a DD when it came in to begin a depth charge run. Still with a lot of testing maybe it's possible to develop balanced subs although I don't honestly hold out much hope of that.

[BLUB__BLUB]

39 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

 

Against bots on the test server (even if the subs were human), how applicable do you think that will be on a live server.

I don't know, that is why I think it is at least "something learned" that WG now makes it a separate game mode. 

If this has any influence in their ability to screw it up, well, we will see. 

 

But I asked, DID YOU PARTICIPATE. If you did not then it is just based on what you have seen on Youtube. 

Which is usually people going off about how easy subs are and how easy it is to kill ships with it.

Have you ever played co-op? I can get 4 kills there in a Fiji in 5 minutes... 10 citadels, easy. 

 

Co-op: What you do is you sail straight in. You kill the DD first. Then you smoke up. Dumb B0ts will sail straight past.

Somehow they smell when you use torps. So what you do, you shoot them straight in the side and harvest citadels. 

Imagine you only see that on Youtube... and that is what you base your opinon on...

 

2 hours ago, _Nexis981_ said:

Blubb_Blubb, i fully agree with you 

No one would drive a submarine as a spotter. I got a funny head-cinema about that 

I mostly used the Queen E, and the thing was, as soon as the sub was spotted my secondaries went off. 

And then I tried to blap the thing. Which was easier that I thought. Yes he can try to snipe a torpedo into you from close. 

But the BB won;t care much, and after he tries the sub is dead. 

 

2 hours ago, _Nexis981_ said:

These public tests were really not representative at all (i fully agree with that too).

So all the conclusions of this public test do not have any value.

The BB's, in about 93% of all cases, was driven by bots, which drove their bb stubborn like a 1st-day-newbie into the center of the map. And presented their hitpoints on the silver platter ^^

Even as submarine it took me a lot of effort to reach, torp and kill the enemy bot-BB's, before they got killed from my overwater-teammates. It was like a time-race to get a bb-kill. 

If i got hunted by a bot-dd, i survived it at most, because bots are dumb. Human-dd's have mostly successfully killed my submarine.

Agreed, but well, some B0ts were better than the humans... 

However they DO HAVE value. It is to check that it all works, and there are no "hit this button the game hangs". 

Or "I hit this island and suddenly my sub was into space" or fell through floor. 

 

2 hours ago, _Nexis981_ said:

It will only be representative, if 100% of all match-participants are human players, like in a real random battle. Then we all can build our real worthy opinion how submarines will influence or change the game in point of random-battles. 

All previous hates are based on a test, of what would happen, if WG would integrate submarines only into co-op battles.

I think some of them did not even participate. 

 

2 hours ago, _Nexis981_ said:

I hope many players participate unprejudiced in that new pvp-only submarine-test. In all ship-types.

I am looking forward to fight with a submarine against a enemy team out of 100% humans. 

I am curious, too. It could be a crap fest. But i am not afraid of change.

 

2 hours ago, _Nexis981_ said:

Have all a nice weekend. 

Nice weekend even to my already 10 haters 

You too mate. See ya on the servers.

 

5 minutes ago, lovelacebeer said:

Suffice to say there is a whole lot of data that's still needed, because on the PTS it was far too heavy on suicidal bots as everyone only wanted to play DDs or Subs. Also people really were not playing to win but rather just going all guns blazing. 

I was... but indeed, mostly b0ts. I managed to cap in my fat BB, how about that. 

 

5 minutes ago, lovelacebeer said:

Although it was worryingly easy to shot gun kill a DD when it came in to begin a depth charge run. Still with a lot of testing maybe it's possible to develop balanced subs although I don't honestly hold out much hope of that.

If you have a sub that has no rear torps, you attack him from the rear. 

He has no chance because those things are not maneuverable. 

But yeah. It is the same when you attack a DD, beware of the torps. 

[Nexis_Finn]

Vor 6 Stunden, BLUB__BLUB sagte:

I think some of them did not even participate. 

Yes i think so too.

 

The most youtubers are only uploading a kill-montage ... a video of their most successfull matches. The viewers never see his many unsuccessfull matches between two clips.

 

I had not many good rounds. Maybe all 20 Matches i had one Round with 4-5 Kills.

If i would guess, i would say i had a kill average of 0,5 Kills per match and a k/d-rate of 0,8.

 

Logically: if anyone see only kill-montage's on youtube, (s)he will react like: "Oh my god, that submarines are compleeeetely overpowered "

I think even the smolensk hit the same fate. I only count opinions already only from people which own that ship.

So the same in point of submarines: only opinions from participants of the public-test have really a value. But that is sadly not verifiable.

 

People which have not participated mostly also do not know, that another big danger for the own submarine are the enemy submarines.

I developed a skill and tactic for killing other submarines with my sub. In my best round with the 5 kills, i killed 1 bot-bb at start, then 1 player-dd and at last 3 player-submarines. I was not able to repeat that success.

I focussed to hunt other submarines with my sub, because i realized that the bot-bb's often got killed from my mates over water, long before i could reach them.

 

I think if battleship-drivers drive careful as common, they will not have the same short lifespan like a sausage in a dog-cage 

[Deckeru_Maiku]

There's no need to play on a crappy testserver with tons of crappy players - at least that's my experience from a couple years ago, when thest server "teams" were even worse then random teams are now - to know that a soon to be implemented game mechanic will f*ck up the gameplay...

[BielayaSmert]

On 5/19/2020 at 12:07 AM, _Nexis981_ said:

(...)

 

Then the comfortable gameplay of destroyers will have finally an end.

 

(...)

 

WTF???

 

[159Hunter]

5 minutes ago, BielayaSmert said:

 

WTF???

 

Yes. He has no clue and is clueless to the fact that he doesn't have a clue.

[Nexis_Finn]

Vor 20 Stunden, Deckeru_Maiku sagte:

There's no need to play on a crappy testserver with tons of crappy players - at least that's my experience from a couple years ago, when thest server "teams" were even worse then random teams are now - to know that a soon to be implemented game mechanic will f*ck up the gameplay...

The testserver ist just for testing things out, not more.

The submarine-implementation on testserver was not even representative because of the high amount of bots.

 

You have revealed now that you have not participated on test-server. It is ok, you need not participate. But:

So whatever you have seen on youtube was also not representative. Most Youtubers are uploading only kill-montages of successfull matches and they do not show their worst matches.

All what you have seen was how submarines deliver the hell to battleships. But that is not reality, it was just a censored botkill-show. You have not seen his many unsuccessfull matches.

 

You also revealed that you are german. I can suggest you the german youtuber & contributor TeamKrado. He does not upload kill-montages, he also show his worst matches, uncensored. Look the submarine-matches from him and you will see that submarines are not overpowered at all. It will reduce your panic from the submarine-implementation drastically.

 

And even if you see this, it is not representative for an submarine implementation into random battles, because it was full of bots.

It is only representative if there are really 100% human players and 0% bots.

The upcoming new game-mode "submarine-battles" will make it representative.

That is your chance to participate without installing a gigabyte-big test-branch. Then we will see how a submarine-implementation would really influence the gameplay in random-battles.

 

I hope you will participate at least at this new game-mode.

 

 

PS: Yes, WG has announced that they are developing the other tiers of submarines. That only shows their will to implement the submarines.

But the implementing of the new game-mode also shows, that they do not want implement submarines to soon. They know that all tests before weren't representative at all.

All tests before only served for testing the general gameplay of waterbombs and subs.

Now the general gameplay ist almost developed and now they want test the influence to the gameplay of random-battles.

They do this on live-server, because the participating on test-server was and is too low.

[BielayaSmert]

2 hours ago, _Nexis981_ said:

 

The submarine-implementation on testserver was not even representative because of the high amount of bots.

 

Yep... you´re right.

 

I can try to kill a submarine in the test server because there is a test, because there are no CVs and yes, because most of the reds are useless bots. In the real server dont expect that many good DDs commit this kind of suicide because...

 

How many time needs to be spotted a DD to search and kill a submarine? 30-40 seconds? Maybe more? You know that this is more than a Des Moines radar?

 

A good DD will runs away from subs just like he runs away from radars and from CVs. Then after subs:

a) Only a torp DDs make any sense. No hunt, no spot, no caps.

b) If not even a DD is a real threat for a sub...

 

 

 

 

Sorry about my horrid english, I try but...

 

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 hour ago, BielayaSmert said:

because there are no CVs

There were, they even forgot "only one CV" so we divved up with three of them. 

Subs taste good, better than Dds. They have no AA and are basically a one-shot-kill. 

You did have to be fast if you wanted to snack on one. 

 

Here's a pic, we had just two Cvs this one.

 

 

[Deckeru_Maiku]

4 hours ago, _Nexis981_ said:

So whatever you have seen on youtube...

I've seen nothing. I very rarely watch any youtube videos ablut games I play, as i just can't understand the fascination of watching people play a game that I can rather play myself... and because usually the voices of the people recording those videos are beyond anything that I could stand for a prolonged amount of time...

 

4 hours ago, _Nexis981_ said:

you will see that submarines are not overpowered at all

 

Seems You misunderstood about anything what I - and some other people - think about submarines. I don't expect them to be OP. I rather expect them to have a negative influence on the game by their presence alone, which will mostly be used as another reason to "kemp bush" for all the tactically challengend players that WoWs has. And it will keep DDs from doing their job, as they will be expected to serve their BB masters by hunting those nasty submarines they will fear...

 

4 hours ago, _Nexis981_ said:

I hope you will participate at least at this new game-mode.

 

I wrote before already, that I will participate... a couple times at least... using my DD like it is supposed ro, with this new threat in game: I stay close to the BBs - so.. near the map edge - and just read what's going on in the chat. It probably will be hilarious... I'm really looking forward to this :)

 

4 hours ago, _Nexis981_ said:

But the implementing of the new game-mode also shows, that they do not want implement submarines to soon. They know that all tests before weren't representative at all.

All tests before only served for testing the general gameplay of waterbombs and subs.

Now the general gameplay ist almost developed and now they want test the influence to the gameplay of random-battles.

They do this on live-server, because the participating on test-server was and is too low.

 

Wanna take a bet? I predict that submarines will soon^tm be implemented into random battles without any more then minimal changes. Some people will start to whine on the forum about how WG should have done proper testing - what they haven't and never will - or that they predicted from the start that this sub thing would be a desaster - which they did - and others will just say that WG will only need some time to fix it and players just should be patient or "adapt etc."

 

And I'm going to be happy, that I probably have at least a couple ships left, that won't get into battles with submarines in random mode... unless WG in it's eternal wisdom will even force them into T4 and below battles, which then would be reason enough for me to stop playing.

[Nexis_Finn]

Vor 1 Stunde, BielayaSmert sagte:

If not even a DD is a real threat for a sub...

A dd is a serious threat for a submarine.

The submarine has same low hitpoints like a dd and the waterbombs from a dd made massive damage.

A pre-damaged submarine got killed even if it has used the consumable "Maximum depth".

A full health submarine could maybe survive only one waterbomb-run from a dd, by using the consumable "Maximum depth" ... maybe. Depending on if the dd manages to drop a second waterbomb-load on same spot or not.

 

And dont forget that even the enemy submarines are a threat for your submarine too.

Especially if i am one of your enemy submarines ^^ I guess i have killed with my sub more enemy submarines than dd's and ca's and bb's in total 

 

So if you play dd and detect a sub, go over it and spit waterbombs on it. You will kill it in most cases. And it has no chance to harm you from below. 

[BielayaSmert]

1 hour ago, _Nexis981_ said:

A dd is a serious threat for a submarine.

The submarine has same low hitpoints like a dd and the waterbombs from a dd made massive damage.

A pre-damaged submarine got killed even if it has used the consumable "Maximum depth".

A full health submarine could maybe survive only one waterbomb-run from a dd, by using the consumable "Maximum depth" ... maybe. Depending on if the dd manages to drop a second waterbomb-load on same spot or not.

 

And dont forget that even the enemy submarines are a threat for your submarine too.

Especially if i am one of your enemy submarines ^^ I guess i have killed with my sub more enemy submarines than dd's and ca's and bb's in total 

 

So if you play dd and detect a sub, go over it and spit waterbombs on it. You will kill it in most cases. And it has no chance to harm you from below. 

 

Okokok... but you dont ask my main question...

 

How many time a DD must be spotted to search and try to kill a Submarine?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BLUB__BLUB]

4 minutes ago, BielayaSmert said:

How many time a DD must be spotted to search and try to kill a Submarine?

Actually there is no such thing. They compete for the caps. 

usually, that means a DD will go to cap and find a sub... and kill him. 

 

Remains to be seen how that will go with more people than bots.

I do think @Deckeru_Maiku has a point there. But maybe WG has learned from Cv Reework. 

One thing they have learned: test server doesn't give balanz-data. So they made it separate game mode (for now...).

Maybe they will do it right, this time. Maybe... 

[BielayaSmert]

1 hour ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Actually there is no such thing. They compete for the caps. 

usually, that means a DD will go to cap and find a sub... and kill him. 

 

Please, the question is very important... How many time a DD must to be spotted to search and try to kill a submarine?

 

Because if the answer is more than 10-15 secs... I can assure you that there will not be many DDs competing for the caps against a sub and there are no DDs searching for submarines.

 

Are you aware about the importance of concealment for a DD?

 

[vonduus]

So - when can we expect subs on the main server?

[BLUB__BLUB]

9 hours ago, BielayaSmert said:

 

Please, the question is very important... How many time a DD must to be spotted to search and try to kill a submarine?

Shorter than when it is an enemy DD.

 

9 hours ago, BielayaSmert said:

Because if the answer is more than 10-15 secs... I can assure you that there will not be many DDs competing for the caps against a sub and there are no DDs searching for submarines.

Don't go DD baby. There is no way to know without trying. You'll just have to try for yourself (which you could have). 

 

9 hours ago, BielayaSmert said:

Are you aware about the importance of concealment for a DD?

 

Are you aware that red DDs might be in caps, too?

[BielayaSmert]

4 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Shorter than when it is an enemy DD.

 

Don't go DD baby. There is no way to know without trying. You'll just have to try for yourself (which you could have). 

 

Are you aware that red DDs might be in caps, too?

Please, dont tell me how to play a DD. I am not a superunicum DD player, but I know how to play it. 

 

DDs 3.540 battles WR 58,73%

 

Fletcher 382 battles

WR 62,57%

PR 1937

-------------------------

DD vs DD is a fight between equals. I can disengage quite easily and when I am spotted by an enemy DD all my team can shoot the red DD too.

Search and kill a Sub... maybe 30-40 seconds receiving tons of shells from half a fleet?

 

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 minute ago, BielayaSmert said:

Please, dont tell me how to play a DD. I am not a superunicum DD player, but I know how to play it. 

I am crap with DDs, but I know how to kill them. 

Also I PLAYED THAT TEST SERVER so I know how hard it is to kill the DDs.

What they do best is attack larger ships, when they see a DD they go....  and then usually KBOOM. 

 

1 minute ago, BielayaSmert said:

DDs 3.540 battles WR 58,73%

Yeah that's plenty good enough. You should have doen the test server. 

You'd have enjoyed whacking those subs. My div-mate did (he usually plays DDs).

 

1 minute ago, BielayaSmert said:

DD vs DD is a fight between equals. I can disengage quite easily and when I am spotted by an enemy DD all my team can shoot the red DD too.

Yeah that's the thing. You say "all the team", and same with subs. 

Except you'll find even cruiser secondaries do damage, long range shots from BB will insta-kill it, etc. 

The spotting from a sub is negligible compared to (for example) the CV. 

[lovelacebeer]

8 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

I am crap with DDs, but I know how to kill them. 

Also I PLAYED THAT TEST SERVER so I know how hard it is to kill the DDs.

What they do best is attack larger ships, when they see a DD they go....  and then usually KBOOM.

 

Once you got the hang of the shotgun surface and torp it really wasn't that hard to kill a DD, yes you lost some health if they were quick on the trigger but DDs were not that scary a proposition to a sub unless they attacked together. 

[BLUB__BLUB]

6 minutes ago, lovelacebeer said:

Once you got the hang of the shotgun surface and torp it really wasn't that hard to kill a DD, yes you lost some health if they were quick on the trigger but DDs were not that scary a proposition to a sub unless they attacked together. 

True, but then again, imagine if that DD had a friend (in the air, in this case).