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WG_Lumberjack

SUBMARINES - discussion, feedback, opinions

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After watching all those Streams, CCs, Videos and reading through every bit of Information I have to say I am really satisfied with how Subs turned out to be. At the current state at least.

 

People say it is not too exciting and you know what? I am totally okay with it.

If it would be the best-thing-ever, everyone would jump onto the Sub-Train and you would have every game filled with Subs to the max.

 

It is a little bit like when I bought my Ford C-Max.

The Moment I sat into the car it felt like I know this car, like I had already driven 100.000 miles. It wasnt exciting, fun and spectacular. I just felt comfortable and at home, that was the reason I bought it. 

Subs have to be the same. They should feel good for the Players that want to play them. 

And it seems they are in a pretty good state balance-wise.

 

But what it really needs is Sub2Sub Combat. Especially for those games with less DDs or for when all DDs get taken out.

Also: I want to be able to use the Deck-Gun!!!! I dont care if it does only 10 damage. It is there and I want to shoot it. Hell, I want to humilate Players by finishing them off with the Deck-Gun! :D:D

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3 hours ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

Sure, but positioning helps against shells while it has no effect on torps, torp hit angle is much less important ...

Torp hit angle is massive important with subs, as is the angle for recieving the ping lock.

 

Worth noting now, sub torps DO NOT follow the same damage rules as normal torps

 

The big alpha damage shown by CC ONLY happens when the following applies: 

-Double ping lock

-Torps hit where the citadel is.

 

Notser has a decent video showing this - double ping locks a BB, hits it full broadside: 35k damage. Then hits a BB broadside with NO ping lock: 7k damage.

 

If the BB is nose in, two things happen; firstly the torps cant hit the citadel anyway, so you're looking at 5-7k damagd. Secondly, you cant double ping lock, because the aft location is behind the bow location, so the second ping simply refreshes the bow location. This means the torps are guided (so will steer a bit), but not deep diving (dont ignore bulge, cant citadel)

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40 minutes ago, Xevious_Red said:

Torp hit angle is massive important with subs, as is the angle for recieving the ping lock.

 

Worth noting now, sub torps DO NOT follow the same damage rules as normal torps

 

The big alpha damage shown by CC ONLY happens when the following applies: 

-Double ping lock

-Torps hit where the citadel is.

 

Notser has a decent video showing this - double ping locks a BB, hits it full broadside: 35k damage. Then hits a BB broadside with NO ping lock: 7k damage.

 

If the BB is nose in, two things happen; firstly the torps cant hit the citadel anyway, so you're looking at 5-7k damagd. Secondly, you cant double ping lock, because the aft location is behind the bow location, so the second ping simply refreshes the bow location. This means the torps are guided (so will steer a bit), but not deep diving (dont ignore bulge, cant citadel)

giphy.gif

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4 hours ago, VIadoCro said:

ah well, here we go - BBs and borderli positioning...

 

No, positioning of the CRUISER ... since you started the "BB deleting cruisers" argument ... if you cannot keep with your own arguments after 2 posts well ...

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46 minutes ago, Xevious_Red said:

Torp hit angle is massive important with subs, as is the angle for recieving the ping lock.

 

Worth noting now, sub torps DO NOT follow the same damage rules as normal torps

 

The big alpha damage shown by CC ONLY happens when the following applies: 

-Double ping lock

-Torps hit where the citadel is.

 

Notser has a decent video showing this - double ping locks a BB, hits it full broadside: 35k damage. Then hits a BB broadside with NO ping lock: 7k damage.

 

If the BB is nose in, two things happen; firstly the torps cant hit the citadel anyway, so you're looking at 5-7k damagd. Secondly, you cant double ping lock, because the aft location is behind the bow location, so the second ping simply refreshes the bow location. This means the torps are guided (so will steer a bit), but not deep diving (dont ignore bulge, cant citadel)

and you angle towards the undetected submarine rather than towards the detected enemy BBs right ? RIGHT ?

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11 minutes ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

and you angle towards the undetected submarine rather than towards the detected enemy BBs right ? RIGHT ?

Your previous arguement was that angling does nothing against torps.

 

You're now argueing you dont want to angle against the sub because you'd rather angle against something else.

 

Personally I'd angle against whichever I thought was going to be the most damaging, or better yet not be in a position where I have to choose between the two

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57 minutes ago, Xevious_Red said:

Personally I'd angle against whichever I thought was going to be the most damaging, or better yet not be in a position where I have to choose between the two

Actually what will happen is BBs and cruisers turning tail and run as soon as they see torpedoes. 

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52 minutes ago, Danucu_Tigger said:

Actually what will happen is BBs and cruisers turning tail and run as soon as they see torpedoes. 

Pretty much. Given that we have 2x2 8km torps with homing ability at T6 - it isn't a great stretch to imagine that subs at T8 and T10 will either have more torps available to them (in tube count or ROF time) or more damaging, potent torpedoes - with a longer range to boot. It'll basically be WoT-arty 2.0 - 'It'll prevent camping!' by making everyone hide behind rocks and hard cover all game long. Sure, this happens to a certain degree already - but invisible assassins that can outspot then potentially snipe you are not going to improve this one bit.

 

It really isn't hard to 2x ping a medium-large target - if you ignore the firing predictor and lead your target a fair bit more than you would normally you can effectively reduce the amount of 'turn' that your torps need to do to get on target. At long(ish) ranges you have the advantage that you your torp shot will correct for a fair amount of movement from the target - unlike a normal torpedo drop that can be thrown off by a minor change of speed or fairly small turn in the time it takes for them to reach their target. The 'ping' alert on the mini-map is virtually silent and easily missed if you are preoccupied shooting at someone or dodging fire from another source. I've got 4x torp hits in a single game and 80k damage for the sum-total of six mouse clicks. 

 

It is also possible to fire a mix of 2x 'dumb' torps and 2x homing torps at the same target - so your victim has the fun of dodging some conventional straight runners PLUS some homers that will come in at a different angle around the same time. 

 

My view so far - Drop the homing torps. Drop the daft '2x points damage' gimmick. Give subs a DD-type torpedo battery (albeit with a very limited firing arc) with a British-style single-launch ability if they need it. The stealth advantages and unrivalled ability to spot still make them exceptionally dangerous without some cold-war-era weaponry on top.

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10 hours ago, Cpt_Nero_ said:

Steering away as Cruiser/DD is far easier than steering away as Battleship,

The French (and now US-) BBs with their speedboost can jump out of harm´s way much easier than cruisers at same tier (DesMo, Hindi, Moskva) which are clumsy.

 

10 hours ago, Cpt_Nero_ said:

Cruisers/DDs can actualy get away from zone which is about to be pushed, BB's not so much.

again, see answer above. Some BBs go 40kn and leave DDs (Haru) and nearly all cruisers behind them.

 

10 hours ago, Cpt_Nero_ said:

Steering away as Cruiser/DD is far easier than steering away as Battleship, not to mention that your turn is far more risky especialy when you are on frontline.

besides the fact that there are very few Bs at the frontline: you think you can just turn around a cruiser infront of the enemy? Good luck with trying that in a Moskva or DesMo.

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[XTREM]
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Im playing at the test server and i must say sub vs sub is really stupid. It is more easy to kill a sub by ramming that with torps. Last battle we were 3 subs vs 1 sub and we were unable to get a single torp hit in almost 3 minutes doing circles...

 

Maybe we need some mechanic to be able to kill subs with... eh... subs

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16 minutes ago, VIadoCro said:

Some BBs go 40kn and leave DDs (Haru) and nearly all cruisers behind them.

 

The key word is SOME, i.e. FEW. On the other hand, there are a lot of poor guys out there who play/grind slow BBs without speed boost. What about them?

And turning in front of enemy BBs is just as dangerous for battleships as it is for cruisers.

 

One question just popped in my mind: what is the view range of submarines? Because if they have 2.5km concealment and can spot up to 15km, this will change the game considerably. 

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1 hour ago, Danucu_Tigger said:

there are a lot of poor guys out there who play/grind slow

...submarines? Jokes aside, the sub is in trouble as soon as a DD is nearby. It is a highly risky play and i am happy that all is still wip. We will see. maybe even the homing function will be taken away.

 

1 hour ago, Danucu_Tigger said:

One question just popped in my mind: what is the view range of submarines? Because if they have 2.5km concealment and can spot up to 15km

This is a very good question, though their concealment on the surface is ca 5km, similar to a Jap DD. This picture, snapped form a CC-vid shows you are right:

58108070_subvis1.thumb.jpg.ef8c02c4ea5a69fb0ff7ce6e6a0b6b50.jpg

The bright cone looks like 12-15km visibilty.

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9 hours ago, Noray said:

If it would be the best-thing-ever, everyone would jump onto the Sub-Train and you would have every game filled with Subs to the max.

Separate game mode, and that's the best place for it. Some of us came here for surface ship v surface ship, like most naval battles... not made-up mixed melee mode WHICH NEVER HAPPENED.

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No need to watch any streams or go full Beta myself, as I already managed to find out what to do, when the Subocalypse hits WoWs:

 

  • go either full T4 DD or CV and actively ignore all enemy subs until you have no other targets left. In case of DD even actively hide beside an allied CV for better AA. Never ever go out early to hunt subs.
  • re-activate chat to feast on the whines of all the poor BaBByseals getting clubbed.
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On 9/21/2019 at 8:49 PM, El2aZeR said:

There seem to be no realistic counterplay options to submarines aside from having a CV deal with them (and subs already represent a massive buff to CVs as they take away enemy AA capabilities, the last thing we need is another gigantic CV buff). Any DD that attempts to attack a sub will be spotted the entire time as predicted and while this may work against bots, it will certainly not work against actual players. Likewise subs cannot effectively engage each other making for extremely stupid gameplay scenarios at times. Attempting to blindfire is about the only thing one can do.

Subs do follow same pattern like the CV did. Damage farmer class, that do not really need a team, but need great deal of teamwork do counter.

 

 

 

Subs are Easy, self-sustained (due the spoting capability) damage farmers. Due the limitation of Real Life battles, Subs can Farm their damage mostly un-challanged. Because all "counterplay" options involve either DD butting them self in great danger, with-out any real reward. Or CV diverting for their more important target.

 

There is zero motivation to do so. Because both DD and CV can mop-up subs later. 

 

That mean that in real life.DDs plays waiting game, until number of enemy surface combatants are reduced and it is safe do go Sub hunting.  DDs, CVs and Subs will turn their combined attention on CAs, CLs and BB - making it really bad experience for them. CV- is the best of the bunch, making CV even more influencal.

 

So @WG_Lumberjack , what is actually made do motivate DDs and CVs do support the team? And how do you expect CV not becoming even more influencal?

 

As far as I can see, Test Server is unsuitable for testing mutch in current form. Players joined up with the test, do hunt Subs, motivation they do not have and what is even discoraged by Live Server battles.

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12 hours ago, invicta2012 said:

Separate game mode, and that's the best place for it. Some of us came here for surface ship v surface ship, like most naval battles... not made-up mixed melee mode WHICH NEVER HAPPENED.

OR THIS:

 

 

NO SUBS !

 

I usually play CA/CL and BBs.

So how I can "counter" subs if my team's dds are sunk and if there are no CVs in team ?  I can't see any chance to stop the sub...

At least BB vs DD there is a chance that BB can do something (small one but still exists).

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4 hours ago, mariouus said:

Subs do follow same pattern like the CV did. Damage farmer class, that do not really need a team, but need great deal of teamwork do counter.

 

 

 

Subs are Easy, self-sustained (due the spoting capability) damage farmers. Due the limitation of Real Life battles, Subs can Farm their damage mostly un-challanged. Because all "counterplay" options involve either DD butting them self in great danger, with-out any real reward. Or CV diverting for their more important target.

 

There is zero motivation to do so. Because both DD and CV can mop-up subs later. 

 

That mean that in real life.DDs plays waiting game, until number of enemy surface combatants are reduced and it is safe do go Sub hunting.  DDs, CVs and Subs will turn their combined attention on CAs, CLs and BB - making it really bad experience for them. CV- is the best of the bunch, making CV even more influencal.

 

So @WG_Lumberjack , what is actually made do motivate DDs and CVs do support the team? And how do you expect CV not becoming even more influencal?

 

As far as I can see, Test Server is unsuitable for testing mutch in current form. Players joined up with the test, do hunt Subs, motivation they do not have and what is even discoraged by Live Server battles.

Too early to answer those questions.
 

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OK I was lucky enough to join the first wave of beta testing.

 

Initial thoughts ...

 

Playing subs requires skill, in a similar way that good CV play requires skill. Landing torps on target for maximum effect is very skill based. I don't mind this at all and is a good thing

 

Subs seem too susceptible to CV attack, and have no counter other than to dive and look at the underwater scene, whilst you try to move away at very low speed, and await a DD to follow in for the kill. The CV player dropping his fighters over you to keep you spotted if you are at periscope depth seems too powerful.

 

There seems no point in trying to take any skill that improves survivability. Any hit is just about fatal.

 

The suggestion that subs should be played from the flanks or from the back, seems wrong. Torping through your own lines, is wrong in every other class, it should be the same in subs.

 

Not sure I like having to use the C F and G keys to control your depth. Two keys would be better given we have to try and use WASD hax as well. At the moment subs are controlled by WASDCFG hax. 

 

We need more players in the Beta to assess game play effectively and give good feedback. A game with only a handful of players and the rest bots, does not help see how the meta or game play will develop.

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At the current stage, the CV-s are the most efficient to counter subs. And because they have a limited time to stay submerged, its just a question of time how fast they get killed, without having a chance. 
I played a couple of battles on the test server and I never got a chance to track down the submarine location circles wirh a DD. But when I played a CV Furious I could annihilate the subs with ease. 
Sad thing that the subs cannot counter each other at all, apart of ramming each other to death. 
In a sub it is just too hard to do well, at least for an average player, and they are just way to easy to kill. 
At the moment subs have no specific role in a battle other than to annoy others and make life hard to the enemy BB-s, whos already have hard time to avoid torpwalls of the DD-s. Only one thing the subs are good at is to distract the enemy DD-s and CV-s attention, so the others maybe can have a little break. 

Subs are DD and CV baits, but they fate is sealed right away as they enter the battle. For the subs It is so hard to survive while be efficient in a battle. 

Also if they would be more easy to play and being more efficient, the game would be less enjoyable for the slow and big ships - which this game is ment to be about. 

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2 hours ago, Fat_Maniac said:

Subs seem too susceptible to CV attack, and have no counter

 

1 hour ago, Murphyum said:

At the current stage, the CV-s are the most efficient to counter subs.

 

What happens when there are no CV in a game?

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I don't think I've seen a game without one yet.

 

And the situation is compounded by the bots, A bot CV vs a human CV, it's really hard to tell what is really happening

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22 hours ago, Xevious_Red said:

Your previous arguement was that angling does nothing against torps.

 

You're now argueing you dont want to angle against the sub because you'd rather angle against something else.

 

Personally I'd angle against whichever I thought was going to be the most damaging, or better yet not be in a position where I have to choose between the two

so basically not play the game ... going by the last sentence ...

 

angling does not help against torps because you always take some damage on impact, you have to actively avoid them. angling helps against BBs because you can actually bounce shells so they either don't penetrate or don't do citadel damage. also a static angle is enough here, no active manouvering is needed (depending on the caliber to armor combination of course, but that's again something that's not a factor with torps).

 

I don't want to see what a T10 sub will do when both pings land ... just seeing a T6 reducing a BB to 5% HP with 2 torps is too much ...

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4 hours ago, WG_Lumberjack said:

Too early to answer those questions.
 

Translation: we have not thought about that and have no concept of the gameplay interactions yet besides the shiny new graphics ...

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21 hours ago, Gvozdika said:

Pretty much. Given that we have 2x2 8km torps with homing ability at T6 - it isn't a great stretch to imagine that subs at T8 and T10 will either have more torps available to them (in tube count or ROF time) or more damaging, potent torpedoes - with a longer range to boot. It'll basically be WoT-arty 2.0 - 'It'll prevent camping!' by making everyone hide behind rocks and hard cover all game long. Sure, this happens to a certain degree already - but invisible assassins that can outspot then potentially snipe you are not going to improve this one bit.

 

It really isn't hard to 2x ping a medium-large target - if you ignore the firing predictor and lead your target a fair bit more than you would normally you can effectively reduce the amount of 'turn' that your torps need to do to get on target. At long(ish) ranges you have the advantage that you your torp shot will correct for a fair amount of movement from the target - unlike a normal torpedo drop that can be thrown off by a minor change of speed or fairly small turn in the time it takes for them to reach their target. The 'ping' alert on the mini-map is virtually silent and easily missed if you are preoccupied shooting at someone or dodging fire from another source. I've got 4x torp hits in a single game and 80k damage for the sum-total of six mouse clicks. 

 

It is also possible to fire a mix of 2x 'dumb' torps and 2x homing torps at the same target - so your victim has the fun of dodging some conventional straight runners PLUS some homers that will come in at a different angle around the same time. 

 

My view so far - Drop the homing torps. Drop the daft '2x points damage' gimmick. Give subs a DD-type torpedo battery (albeit with a very limited firing arc) with a British-style single-launch ability if they need it. The stealth advantages and unrivalled ability to spot still make them exceptionally dangerous without some cold-war-era weaponry on top.

Dropping daft torps, love that one, I think the next thing for the CV's is the homing torps..... WG I hope you heard that one:Smile_trollface:

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1 hour ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

so basically not play the game ... going by the last sentence ...

 

angling does not help against torps because you always take some damage on impact, you have to actively avoid them. angling helps against BBs because you can actually bounce shells so they either don't penetrate or don't do citadel damage. also a static angle is enough here, no active manouvering is needed (depending on the caliber to armor combination of course, but that's again something that's not a factor with torps).

 

I don't want to see what a T10 sub will do when both pings land ... just seeing a T6 reducing a BB to 5% HP with 2 torps is too much ...

Probably a T 10 sub will have a four launch of homing torps, so then he can aim for and hit two targets simultaneously, hope  i'm not giving WG ideas here.:Smile_veryhappy:

 

I still think the when surfaced, deck guns and rear mounted AA guns should be functioning things.

 

 

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