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SUBMARINES - discussion, feedback, opinions

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[DUXTR]
Alpha Tester
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Well, after watching a bit of Flambass stream I concluded With 4 things

1: Pinging makes u very vulnerable. So firing them "the old" way might be a wise Choice.

2: Contesting caps is rather pointless early on

3:  Since u are a vulnerable boat if detected, u end up playing more selfish, and less for the team. 

4: This thing will be put into a game were u need to rely on Your team, With players who suicide run or die to BB guns in their DDs while doing torpruns and not firing their guns.

 

My biggest concern isn't putting in the subs in the game, it's the playerbase. This boat has a higher skillbase to be good at...….and u just dumbed down the CVs cause of the skillgap...…….Yeah......about that.

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1 hour ago, loppantorkel said:

If the playerbase is large enough to support it - one Random Games for larger scale battles with cvs and submarines - increase player count on each side and map size, and the ordinary 'quick' 20 min Random Games without cvs and subs. Could be interesting and decent variety of battles to choose from.

 

An issue with subs and the necessity of dd as counter is the same as when you have to hunt down that border licking, 20km torp shima. It feels like a waste of resources to go there but it has to be done. It's a trade dd for dd, or dd for sub, you'll be out of the battle for a considerable amount of time by going there. All in all, you'll need a lot of dds per battle and perhaps an increased ship count per battle would be a decent solution.

Additional 2 player slots per year would be great - Common WG, you can do it :)

No more excuses please.

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[ALONE]
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While I still like playing the new subs, I must say - the Halloween-subs were more fun.

 

Remove the homing (or give it just to one boat, as it was teasted), give subs auto-loaders and faster torps - just like then.

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I've had the chance to play with subs and against subs.

 

DD vs sub using depth charges is an easy sub kill if you are 1 on 1. If there is any support for the sub, it is more balanced.

Cruisers are not a soft target for subs, HE makes short work of subs

Sub vs BB, once you get the hang of the ping, tops can work well, but damage is not huge. Encourages DD to stick closer to  big ships.

 

Better gameplay than the carrier rework Better than the crazy halloween subs. Need to look at ability to fire torps on the surface

 

The ship horn is a klaxon ... a lot of the chat last night was the klaxon sound, people seemed to like it.

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1 hour ago, H4d3zZz said:

When is the second round of invites supposed to go through. 

Hopefully soon since i want to actually play them before i turn into the mummy.

 

Strange how they start at tier 6, better to do tier 4 or 10 and then scale up or down accordingly.

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[THESO]
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7 minutes ago, CptBarney said:

Strange how they start at tier 6, better to do tier 4 or 10 and then scale up or down accordingly.

I dont know feels like it could be a good idea to start at 6 at least when you look at ships, when you get to tier 6 its not a total slow poke game like in the low tiers and it somewhat looks decent but yet not as high level game as tier 10.

 

Also if you dont mind me asking i have been wondering about this for a while is this account only for forum posting or what? Cause it looks a bit strange with less than 250 battles and over 3000 forum posts. 

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1 minute ago, H4d3zZz said:

I dont know feels like it could be a good idea to start at 6 at least when you look at ships, when you get to tier 6 its not a total slow poke game like in the low tiers and it somewhat looks decent but yet not as high level game as tier 10.

Dunno it just makes more logical sense to me you could scale down from tier 10 (scaling down is easier than going up). I dont mind lower tiers the smoll maps and tiny guns ranges allow you to get into the fight easier (but i guess bb’s are a bit on the chonkeh side).

 

1 minute ago, H4d3zZz said:

 

Also if you dont mind me asking i have been wondering about this for a while is this account only for forum posting or what? Cause it looks a bit strange with less than 250 battles and over 3000 forum posts. 

Ye. I did post with my steam account but with multiple issues logging i gave up and just settled for my world of tanks account (19k battles roughly).

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Hi, some feedback from the Beta / a possible bug (sorry I couldn't find anywhere else to report it).

In the last game I played twice I had a double sonar ping hit on a Budyonny and both times the torps appeared to go straight under / through the targeted ship.

If anyone can let me know where I should be reporting this, if not here, please let me know.

Thanks

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from what I have seen, RPF will suddenly become an important skill for every class, fleet DDs may be coming back .... you know those that stick to the large ships and screen for enemy DDs/subs ... I liked to do that in the ruskies back then (Kiev, Udaloi) when smoke firing penalty was not yet a thing ...

 

Edit: I noticed one strange thing while watching a few more vids ... if you are proxy spoted by a sub that's submerged, you DO NOT PROXY SPOT THE SUB BACK !!!! Why ? proxy spoting works through ISLANDS FFS !!! This asymmetric [edited] with base mechanics has to stop ....

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[NEXT]
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On 9/21/2019 at 4:42 PM, Smeggo said:

Well, I'd like to point out, after some more testing - hunting subs is fun:

 

- they can be hit at periscope depth and even more on surface by CV-rockets and bombs. Not that hard to sink them.

- subs on periscope depth eat secondary damage, and it doesn't take a lot of hits - a BB can sink them too.

- chasing them with DD-waterbombs is quite funny, kind of like a secondary build.

 

Sinking a sub gives equal rewards as sinking a BB, so thats not an issue.

 

I really recommend trying the TST out for yourself, rather than just listening to the usual streamer complaints and grabbing the pitchforks :Smile_trollface:

I agree, but in my opinion the DCs should be more about "aiming" without nuclearbomb explosions radius. But also the submarine should do teamspotting when submerges, thus the DD has a chance to aim to aim with them

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[ALONE]
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Hm, just failed bombing two submarines - the DD was not dropping any charges. 

Are the ASW deactivated when the AA is deactivated?

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22 minutes ago, Smeggo said:

Hm, just failed bombing two submarines - the DD was not dropping any charges. 

Are the ASW deactivated when the AA is deactivated?

supposedly ASW counts as secondary and is deactivated with AA deactivation. They'll probably change this feature when they notice it.

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First of all, I have to say that I didn't play on the Sub Test Server, so my opinions are based on CC gameplay videos:

-Citadel Mode torps that ignore all torpedo protection after successful pinging came as a real nasty surprise for me. I am mostly a BB and Cruiser player, so the prospect of losing 30-40k hp in 2 torp hits will seriously deter me from pushing. Good luck trying to bowtank with homing torpedoes around. It takes some skill to keep a high situational awareness (where are the DDs, how to angle, what is my team doing, what is the enemy doing?) and the submarines will complicate things further: imagine a novice being nuked by homing torpedoes in a slow tier4 BB.

 

And so far I've seen tier6 gameplay: what will the subs and their torpedoes be at tier8-10? One can only assume the range, number of torpedo tubes and damage will increase.

 

DD players will probably not be interested to hunt subs early on. The depth charging mechanic seems pretty easy, but doesn't work unless you're right on top. To make matters worse, Wargaming dished out a lot of stealthy DDs which encourage selfish play (like Asashio) and not going around being proxi-spotted while depth charging submarines. 

 

Questions: 

- what happens when you tag a ship with 2 pings but the torpedoes hit another ship?

- will there be a DD rework or all DDs will be equally effective against subs? Will there be new ASW DD lines created?

 

PS: is WG testing the ping mechanic for future introduction of guided missile ships? I'd rather see a post '80s refit USS New Jersey with Harpoons instead of a new Stalingrad/Smolensk premium!  

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[NIKE]
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56 minutes ago, Danucu_Tigger said:

First of all, I have to say that I didn't play on the Sub Test Server, so my opinions are based on CC gameplay videos:

-Citadel Mode torps that ignore all torpedo protection after successful pinging came as a real nasty surprise for me. I am mostly a BB and Cruiser player, so the prospect of losing 30-40k hp in 2 torp hits will seriously deter me from pushing. Good luck trying to bowtank with homing torpedoes around. It takes some skill to keep a high situational awareness (where are the DDs, how to angle, what is my team doing, what is the enemy doing?) and the submarines will complicate things further: imagine a novice being nuked by homing torpedoes in a slow tier4 BB.

 

And so far I've seen tier6 gameplay: what will the subs and their torpedoes be at tier8-10? One can only assume the range, number of torpedo tubes and damage will increase.

 

Couple of things worth noting if you haven't tried it;

 

-The homing torps don't home that much. They steer slightly, but are quite easy to avoid with DD/cruisers as the torps don't cope well with large changes in direction. Since it's only a pair of them, you can usually just steer around them as long as they aren't coming from broadside.

-The subs are tier 6+, so unless they've fail platooned then tier 4 BB won't meet them.

-When pinging, the sub appears on the minimap. You can then either kite away from that location, or nose towards it. Torps at tier 6 are only 8/9k, cruisers can usually just kite away out of range.

-In order to get the big 30K damage, the torps have to actually hit the citadel. If they hit the nose, they do significantly less damage, in the 5-6k region.

-Ping only lasts 35 seconds - at longer ranges the ping runs out before the torps get there (so they stop homing). The ping can be refreshed, but will reveal your position every time you ping.

 

 

My general impression is that they're not hugely a threat unless you like straight lines, aren't that great to play as you're ineffective against most ships, and aren't that exciting to play against.

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27 minutes ago, Xevious_Red said:

Couple of things worth noting if you haven't tried it;

 

-The homing torps don't home that much. They steer slightly, but are quite easy to avoid with DD/cruisers as the torps don't cope well with large changes in direction. Since it's only a pair of them, you can usually just steer around them as long as they aren't coming from broadside.

-The subs are tier 6+, so unless they've fail platooned then tier 4 BB won't meet them.

-When pinging, the sub appears on the minimap. You can then either kite away from that location, or nose towards it. Torps at tier 6 are only 8/9k, cruisers can usually just kite away out of range.

-In order to get the big 30K damage, the torps have to actually hit the citadel. If they hit the nose, they do significantly less damage, in the 5-6k region.

-Ping only lasts 35 seconds - at longer ranges the ping runs out before the torps get there (so they stop homing). The ping can be refreshed, but will reveal your position every time you ping.

Tier6 means tier 5-7 MM, so subs may encounter slow ships such as New York or Konig with fairly green captains. Tier 6 BBs are not that faster, and even tier 7 Colorado is still at 22-24kn. Just like in the case of going against a CV 2 tiers higher, being uptiered in a game with submarines will probably be a cringing experience (rare as it might be).

And yes, there are also just a pair of torpedoes per attack for tier 6 CV torpedo planes, but at higher tiers the number goes up. So I guess we can expect tier 9-10 subs launching 4-6 torpedoes that can potentially single-shot a full health Yamato or Grosser Kurfurst.

The ping icon on the minimap looked quite discrete to me and unless you happen to look at the minimap at the same time I think you would miss it. I don't remember if the last known position of the sub is updated on the minimap following the ping. 

 

The submarines seem to have better concealment and longer ranged torps than same tier DDs, with added benefit of homing torps. The only real downside is the speed. At the moment.

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7 minutes ago, Danucu_Tigger said:

The submarines seem to have better concealment and longer ranged torps than same tier DDs, with added benefit of homing torps. The only real downside is the speed. At the moment.

 So you mean until WG ignore feedback and make subs the next OP class.  No that can't be right, that would never happen.  WG would never ignore feedback and screw over the playerbase.

 

What's that?  The spreadsheet says that all is ok and we are having fun?  Friend computer is always wise...

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3 hours ago, MyopicHedgehog said:

 So you mean until WG ignore feedback and make subs the next OP class.  No that can't be right, that would never happen.  WG would never ignore feedback and screw over the playerbase.

 

What's that?  The spreadsheet says that all is ok and we are having fun?  Friend computer is always wise...

IMHO the CV rework had huge swings back and forth.

I was suprised about version 0.8.5, but then the pendulum came back in 0.8.7.

 

As a guestimate it may be the same with Uboats.

WG does go after stats data, esecially if they have recorded 3 months of data from the live system.

They also have to make the compromise of making money and at the same time keeping the fun for all ship classes in balance.

 

Some people will always whine and complain, no matter what change is performed.

Wishing everyone a nice time in WoWs :)

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[JRM]
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So the first impression is cruisers get shafted - again... Well ok I guess its time to swich to CV/BB main...

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11 hours ago, Danucu_Tigger said:

So I guess we can expect tier 9-10 subs launching 4-6 torpedoes that can potentially single-shot a full health Yamato or Grosser Kurfurst.

Just as every battleship can one-shot every full-health cruiser (and this hasn´t changed in four years).

Besides, a BB will meet max 2 subs, a cruiser has to deal with 5 BBs every match.

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Just now, VIadoCro said:

Just as every battleship can one-shot every full-health cruiser (and this hasn´t changed in four years).

Besides, a BB will meet max 2 subs, a cruiser has to deal with 5 BBs every match.

Oh yes ... those BBs with homing shells ... oh wait ...

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1 hour ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

Oh yes ... those BBs with homing shells ... oh wait ...

Torpedoes are easier to dodge than shells since they are much slower. And you don´t fire 2 shells, but 9-12. Also you fire shells every 22-30 seconds, torps every 90 seconds.

 

You get an idea why there is some help needed with torps?

Edited by VIadoCro
EDIT: also compare 8km range with 20km+. Yeah, your comparison really lacks in my opinion.
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1 minute ago, VIadoCro said:

Torpedoes are easier to dodge than shells since they are much slower. And you don´t fire 2 shells, but 9-12. Also you fire shells every 22-30 seconds, torps every 90 seconds.

 

You get an idea why there is some help needed with torps?

Sure, but positioning helps against shells while it has no effect on torps, torp hit angle is much less important ...

 

range being a factor here ??? the more range the more time to dodge in both cases ... so no, not relevant ... also range dramatically alters the penetration properties of shells while again has no such effect on torps ...

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1 hour ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

range being a factor here ??? the more range the more time to dodge in both cases ... so no, not relevant ...

you say in both cases.. so if it matters in one case, why doesn´t it in the other?

If you steer away from torps they run out and disappear.

 

1 hour ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

also range dramatically alters the penetration properties of shells while again has no such effect on torps ..

Monty&Co have no issues blap any cruiser at 20km

 

1 hour ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

positioning helps against shells while it has no effect on torps

ah well, here we go - BBs and borderli positioning...

 

1 hour ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

torp hit angle is much less important ...

i am not 100% sure, but i think that every CC so far has stated that you can not cita-hit with torps if the target is bow-on

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21 minutes ago, VIadoCro said:

you say in both cases.. so if it matters in one case, why doesn´t it in the other?

If you steer away from torps they run out and disappear.

 

Monty&Co have no issues blap any cruiser at 20km

 

ah well, here we go - BBs and borderli positioning...

 

i am not 100% sure, but i think that every CC so far has stated that you can not cita-hit with torps if the target is bow-on

1 - Steering away as Cruiser/DD is far easier than steering away as Battleship, not to mention that your turn is far more risky especialy when you are on frontline.

2 - Any Cruiser that gets blapped at 20km is own demise, with such long shell-travel time over the distance, if you get hit by a BB on that distance its just own lack of awareness

3 - Positioning in Battleships is as critical as it is for Cruisers, with main exception being that Cruisers/DDs can actualy get away from zone which is about to be pushed, BB's not so much.

Above all, Torpedoes that deal insane citadel damage with tracking bullets, is something that is incredibly stupid, if one class gets such aim assist, not to mention ability to be completely concealed and pick whenever they want to engage enemies without having to worry about own spot? this requires more balancing than carriers do.

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