Jump to content
Server Restart - On the 17/09 the server will be unavailable for 1 hour Read more... ×
You need to play a total of 50 battles to post in this section.
WG_Lumberjack

SUBMARINES - discussion, feedback, opinions

2,080 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

[IGB]
Beta Tester
182 posts
8,865 battles

I have being trying all morning entering the test server and i cant. Is the test server down already?

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[CROTZ]
Beta Tester
1,196 posts
9,750 battles
13 hours ago, Major_Damage225 said:

Just had a look on YT of Panzerknacker

 

Pretty dull game but my observations. 

Torps dont do allot of damage but floods are another thing, looks easy, prolly isnt, tho i am curious and will defenetly have a go at them. 

They look like a good deterent and a good "swing the game around" if used properly. 

The players who know theyr map and plan ahead will do good in them by planing where ships might go through, downside is that i will make the game on one part more campy but on the other hand might keep people on the move since a camping ship is now a perfect target, the CV in the game above shows that (lol tho, you got hit, you should move.... nope im fine XD) 

As for the peanut gallery well its gonna be.... Just my thought... "weak buff nao", "OP remove this :etc_swear:

Just my quick observations, always feel free to correct me if i fuged something up or wooshed past the point. 

:Smile_honoring:

Hot,

thanks for sharing.

I love that WoWs get more varierty like "the other game".

 

Cant wait till its on the live server !

  • Funny 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[ALONE]
Modder
2,363 posts
14,288 battles
Vor 1 Stunde, mirage77 sagte:

I have being trying all morning entering the test server and i cant. Is the test server down already?

1200 - 2000 UTC. Server just gone online.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[NIKE]
Beta Tester
3,405 posts
7,325 battles
1 hour ago, mariouus said:

 

3.CVs will avoid hunting Subs, until very end of the battle, until there is nothing else to do.

 

For example: CV is a Damage farming class - while Sub is easy do damage by CV in certain condition, its propeties like being able do dive when needed. Actually makes it fairly low priority target for CV, Because it can complety nullify time spent on searching it - reducing damage farming potential and overall efficency of the CV.

 

5.Due the nature of the CV, Subs are fairly low priority targets. It is more time effective do farm other classes. And because CV looses damage potential when hunting. There is no initiative do hunt Subs. There is initiative of not doing that.

 

 

 

 

A lot of this comes down to the preference of the CV player  - if they focus big ships, they will probably ignore subs

 

If however they are the type that hunts DD first and farms damage second then they are just as likely to go find the subs.

 

You can just leave fighters till they resurface/periscope, they provide decent XP (as do more % of HP), and can be finished off with 3-4 rocket strikes. Its not a huge amount of effort while DD hunting to loop back around and take out a sub instead.

 

If they spend a lot of time underwater they're not a threat, and will just run out of O2. If they spend a lot of time on the surface/periscope they're just as easy as a kagero thats doing 8kn.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
489 posts
6,520 battles

Yup, nope.

 

Won't be chasing submarines round the map in my DD's. Can't see the reward at all. Minimal damage in a meta that rewards damage.

  • Cool 3
  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
1,133 posts
12,443 battles
28 minutes ago, Xevious_Red said:

You can just leave fighters till they resurface/periscope, they provide decent XP (as do more % of HP), and can be finished off with 3-4 rocket strikes. Its not a huge amount of effort while DD hunting to loop back around and take out a sub instead.

 

If they spend a lot of time underwater they're not a threat, and will just run out of O2. If they spend a lot of time on the surface/periscope they're just as easy as a kagero thats doing 8kn.

Problem here is that there is no urgency to do so. Hunting Subs will really eat into damage race, with very few benefits.

 

Main conceptual problem is. That ships, that can counter Subs, have no reason to do so early on.For a DD it is mutch easyer and safer do go DD hunting late into game, when most of the BBs/CA/CL are elminated. Rather than screening BBs/CL/CAs.

 

That Concept can only work in real Teambased enviroment. Like Clan Wars, certain Operations. But it can not work in Randoms. Randoms are individualistic game, with team elements. Subs pose least threat for CV and DD, there is no reason (and many players do not have the courage, nor intelligence do hunt Sub anyway), why they should risk or waste damage potentsial, do assist people they do not know. When they can do it later, with mutch less risk.

 

 

 

 

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[NIKE]
Beta Tester
3,405 posts
7,325 battles
41 minutes ago, mariouus said:

Problem here is that there is no urgency to do so. Hunting Subs will really eat into damage race, with very few benefits.

 

 

 

Will depends how the general player base uses subs - if they go out to the flanks then Id totally agree. In the TST they keep going places DD go, so to caps and the surrounding area. So hunting them doesn't go far out of the way from where you were going anyway.

If subs become the primary cappers then they'll be among my top priorities. If they avoid caps because DD are there then they'll be low priority.

  • Cool 1
  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[POP]
Weekend Tester
1,235 posts

Not extremely impressed so far, to be honest, although I've only done a few quick tests and watched streams and videos. 

  • Most importantly, we don't need a class of ships that will slow down the meta even more and that's exactly what the submarines will be in the current form.
  • The game also doesn't need more completely asymmetrical interactions without real counterplay - and although submarines aren't nearly as bad as carriers in this regard, their extreme concealment abilities do cause this to happen.
  • Sub on sub action is just plain stupid and any game that ends with just subs alive is as much a tragedy as it's comedy.
  • Realism is one thing, but many aspects of subs are just plain wrong and extremely counterintuitive
    • Why the hell does my sub use active sonar every now and then just to scout the scenery? Not really a big deal but scares the ship out of me every time it happens, pings are supposed to be coming my way, not going out.
    • Having to surface every few moments due to oxygen depletion is a good way to emulate an important limitation real subs had (although in reality they needed to recharge batteries).
    • The extremely overbuffed mobility especially underwater changes the basic character of the class and is a sign of too much shoehorning. This is much more apparent now that we're not sailing steampunk ships and we're comparing them directly to regular ships.
    • Hydro was designed and built to find submarines, it's extremely counterintuitive when it does not. Also, how is sound not a thing at all in submarine warfare?
    • Acoustic torpedoes are borderline weird, but acceptable due to the flexible timeline in the game. However, aiming them by using active pings is just plain stupid and extremely counterintuitive. Also, why do other ships not have acoustic torps now?
    • Why on earth can't subs launch torpedoes on surface?

Most other classes have some resemblance and general characteristics of their actual real-life counterparts, but submarines are just completely wrong in most of their functional aspects (a lot like carriers - that are an extremely destructive class). Even in the extremely shoehorned form they at least initially feel like a dangerous addition to the game. It would be interesting to hear more about the designers' idea on how the subs are intended to integrate into the meta and how they are supposed to work so that we could better estimate if that's actually happening.

 

Perhaps most importantly: Subs were at least initially supposed to have a game mode of their own, where is that? What we have now is the regular random game with subs in it. Maybe if we got to test the actual new mode we would be better able to estimate how they fit their intended purpose.

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[ALONE]
Modder
2,363 posts
14,288 battles

Well, I'd like to point out, after some more testing - hunting subs is fun:

 

- they can be hit at periscope depth and even more on surface by CV-rockets and bombs. Not that hard to sink them.

- subs on periscope depth eat secondary damage, and it doesn't take a lot of hits - a BB can sink them too.

- chasing them with DD-waterbombs is quite funny, kind of like a secondary build.

 

Sinking a sub gives equal rewards as sinking a BB, so thats not an issue.

 

I really recommend trying the TST out for yourself, rather than just listening to the usual streamer complaints and grabbing the pitchforks :Smile_trollface:

  • Cool 6
  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[LADA]
Players
745 posts
9,554 battles

Here are my thoughts as playing as a sub. 

 

1) You can 'snipe' high profile targets from a fair distance away with a reasonable chance of hitting them thanks to homing torps. Bear in mind that you can 'ping' a target in such a way that they can go behind an island and (if they don't hug said island) the torps will track them AROUND the corner within reason. Doesn't sound like much but for a larger ship that can't exactly duck and dive around it can be a real issue.

 

Now consider for a moment arty in WOT. They would and (did) follow any decent player around the map and just crap on them all game. I can see a sub being very good for this in WOWS - or bad - depends which side of the equation you are sitting.

 

This brings me onto....

 

2) Torps do an insane amount of damage to a 'pinged' target - seriously, a pair of well-aimed torpedoes can more or less cripple a BB. Now it doesn't kill it in one go - it just whacks off so much HP that the BB driver doesn't want to push for the rest of the game until that sledgehammer-toting sub is dealt with. This doesn't happen due to the fact that subs seem to last as long in games as the CV does.

 

This leads to....

 

3) BBs will not push if they think a sub is around. The player-driven BBs are hanging back A LOT because of the aforementioned ability to snipe. But there must be counters right? Erm…..

 

4) Sub vs Sub combat is non-existent. That isn't me being dramatic - it isn't there. End of. Short of both yoloing into eachother and ramming - you CANNOT engage other subs. If you don't believe me - here is a screenshot of myself and another sub trying desperately to take each other out. In the end we both got bored to trying to shoot torps (you just press 'C' and dive under them every time) and just ignored each other. In the end I waited until he was occupied and just rammed into him for giggles. Not exactly an ideal method but it seems the only way to reliably take a sub out of the equation. 'But DDs?!' I hear some ask....

 

5) Also supported by the screenshot - notice the lack of DDs. They get killed off before they can chase down subs, they get killed off if they try to chase a sub - a sub driver just has to avoid driving into them early on and let the CVs kill them off. I have yet to be attacked by a DD. Between doing DD-type things, dodging CVs, trying to engage or disengage from other DDs - they simply don't have the luxury of being the ASW specialists on the team. 

 

I'm going to start just playing as a DD to see if things get any better above the water but everything I've seen so far tells me it likely isn't. 

 

Untitled.png

  • Cool 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
1,133 posts
12,443 battles
29 minutes ago, Smeggo said:

Well, I'd like to point out, after some more testing - hunting subs is fun:

 

29 minutes ago, Smeggo said:

I really recommend trying the TST out for yourself, rather than just listening to the usual streamer complaints and grabbing the pitchforks

I am not listening streamer complaints.

 

I am not saying, that DDs will not hunt and kill (or CV in that mather) subs.Nor am I saying it is not fun. I am saying that they will not "hunt" Subs like WG envisions. 

 

WG envisions  DDs screening and protecting CA/CL and BB against Subs. Due the nature of the game, this is added risk for a DD. What will actually happen, is that DDs will not screen the fleet against DDs, it is high risk action with no benefits. They will play just like they play now. And wait until enemy enemy surface ships are reduced or eliminated and then hunt down Subs. In this case it would be low risk, high gain. It is basic efficency and human nature.

 

In test server, people are really concentrated do hunt Subs, there is high motivation for doing so, that is the reason why they signed-up. There is no such reason in "Live": why risk your ship by screening from early on. When you can mutch more easily chase them down later. 

 

That why I am saying, in current form Test server is pointless. Playstyle there is complitely different than in Live. Exactly like it was with CV.

 

In Live server, DDs trying do screen against Subs, will just get slaughtered. DD will just have do wait and hope, that enemy numbers are reduced, before doing any sort of hunting. Leaving Subs free do damage farm with little risk.

 

Core problem what this kind of Concept has, is exactly the same as in CV. People, who get Farmed with impunity will not be happy.

  • Cool 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
10,663 posts
12,105 battles

Feeding WG shredder with "player feedback and suggestions":cap_tea:

 

Instead magically pinging ship bow and stern, sub could have separate "acoustic" torpedoes, potentially slower, harder hitting/keelbreakers which would be "guided" towards nearest source of noise within specified radius around torpedo. Regular, unguided torps being main "armament", dealing reasonable damage and having quick-ish reload. Both could be mitigated by good ol WSAD hax, on top of that acoustic torps guidance "as balance feature" could ignore immobile or moving at 1/2 speed or less ships, giving countermeasures even for clumsy BBs.

 

Submerged speed could be easily solved tying it to oxygen usage - you can go all out 30kts submerged, while burning through oxygen supply at alarming rate (equivalent of starting diesels underwater in emergency), or run at "closer to historical" speeds but oxygen lasting much longer. Moving speed also could affect sub "detection", how often location would show up or how precisely above sub destroyer needs to be to launch depth charges.

 

Don't have access to test yet, but looking at footage available already depth is set in steps instead fluid control, like it was in Halloween 2018. So you can't even crash dive out of harms way on your own.

  • Cool 3
  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[LADA]
Players
745 posts
9,554 battles
8 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Don't have access to test yet, but looking at footage available already depth is set in steps instead fluid control, like it was in Halloween 2018. So you can't even crash dive out of harms way on your own.

It is fairly easy to pop up and down - you can hit 'C' and slip under torps fired at you fairly quickly. 

 

EDIT to add - the depth control seems more 'three dimensional' than on the Halloween test.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
10,663 posts
12,105 battles
Just now, Gvozdika said:

It is fairly easy to pop up and down - you can hit 'C' and slip under torps fired at you fairly quickly. 

Back in Halloween 2018 you could set depth when submerged at your own leisure, which was an effective way of mitigating depth charges in case you really wanted to see them in action, but do not want to go back to port just yet:Smile_smile: 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
155 posts
7,581 battles

Interesting, interesting... so there is some sort of acoustic ping targeting for extra accurate torps and dmg.. 

What if I set my speed thingy to the stop indicator and tell my crew to be very, very quiet? Will this confuse the torpedoes and make them go back to the mother sub? 

  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
10,663 posts
12,105 battles
13 minutes ago, LoveYouTooBuddy said:

Interesting, interesting... so there is some sort of acoustic ping targeting for extra accurate torps and dmg.. 

What if I set my speed thingy to the stop indicator and tell my crew to be very, very quiet? Will this confuse the torpedoes and make them go back to the mother sub? 

So far, nope. If you get pinged, pray to RNGesus your WSAD hax will be enough

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[TORAZ]
Beta Tester
15,196 posts
21,840 battles

Frankly? Subs look terrible.

 

There seem to be no realistic counterplay options to submarines aside from having a CV deal with them (and subs already represent a massive buff to CVs as they take away enemy AA capabilities, the last thing we need is another gigantic CV buff). Any DD that attempts to attack a sub will be spotted the entire time as predicted and while this may work against bots, it will certainly not work against actual players. Likewise subs cannot effectively engage each other making for extremely stupid gameplay scenarios at times. Attempting to blindfire is about the only thing one can do.

 

As for submarine gameplay, unless you can catch a seriously dumb BB (which to be fair exist en masse) there is no reliable option to deal damage. Even with a double ping any surface ship seems to be able to outmaneuver torps easily, hitting an attentive player is thus close to impossible. However subs are ridiculously good at scouting, keeping their surrounding area lit the entire time while being difficult to detect and engage by enemy surface ships.

This basically just makes them glorified spotters. Hardly very exciting gameplay. Practically speaking there is no real reason to play a sub over a DD or CV as the latter two classes have far better options to deal damage while at the same time fulfilling the scouting role just as effectively if there are no subs around making submarines redundant.

  • Cool 7
  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
8,010 posts
245 battles

I doubt anything in this thread will be looked at too be honest.

 

If so, i don't see the reason for subs, they add nothing new to the game and simply create even more balancing issues (like these games dont already have enough) which later on will probs have a reeeework of its own 3-4 years after launch of said class.

 

The fact that subs don't have regular torps and no torps to damage other submarines isn't a good thing and hopefully they will actually add sub vs sub gameplay, also sub guns not working and only being able to torp at periscope level again makes no sense.

 

Makes sense why they thought adding the double barrel mechanic would be a good idea. Subs would be a fine addition to PVE and OP's and special events, but beyond that no thank you.

  • Cool 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[POP]
Weekend Tester
1,235 posts

From what I've seen so far, subs don't seem to fit too well into random battles and I can't see any kind of changes that would make them a good fit. However, if they actually get a special game mode to fight in, that just might change things quite a bit. The Halloween special was ok and maybe some kind of a convoy hunt mode or something else like that could work just fine.

 

The thing I fear the most is that subs are a lot like (action) carriers in the sense that it might be extremely difficult or outright impossible to balance them in a way that makes them relevant but not gloriously overpowered. However, most importantly subs can not under any circumstances be added into random battles before there is decent sub vs sub gameplay or it will just create a number of hilariously stupid end game scenarios.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[POP]
Weekend Tester
1,235 posts

Also one point that just came to my mind; imagine having for example 3 submarines on both teams. What that means is that there will be a total of 6 less ships doing the dakka-dakka-shooty-shooty-boom-boom action thing that's so important to the game. Sure this is mainly a game of tactical positioning, but it's nice to have things to shoot at and to an extent nice to have someone shooting back at you. Makes things more exciting at least. 

 

With 3 subs and a carrier per side that leaves a grand total of 8 surface combatants per side ready to do the shooting thing. That's more like ranked or clan wars territory. Also of course those subs have exactly 0 anti-air capability, so guess who's going to have a field day among those 8 ships that are also fairly spread out on large maps. And, after that, with the poor subs that are out of oxygen late in the game. 

 

I'm also a bit sceptical about a submarine's ability to "radio locate" ships during deep dives or, presumably, get radio located themselves.

  • Cool 5
  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[PIKAS]
Beta Tester
2,407 posts
6,768 battles

IF These things will ever reach the Random Battles, WG HAS to create 2 additional Slots for each team for the submarines, and only for them IMHO

No Submarines in the waiting room than These Slots Keep empty.

 

Otherwise yes, totaly true, not much Dakka Ships left.....and thats for what the game is made for.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
155 posts
7,581 battles
33 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

Also one point that just came to my mind; imagine having for example 3 submarines on both teams. What that means is that there will be a total of 6 less ships doing the dakka-dakka-shooty-shooty-boom-boom action thing that's so important to the game. Sure this is mainly a game of tactical positioning, but it's nice to have things to shoot at and to an extent nice to have someone shooting back at you. Makes things more exciting at least. 

 

With 3 subs and a carrier per side that leaves a grand total of 8 surface combatants per side ready to do the shooting thing. That's more like ranked or clan wars territory. Also of course those subs have exactly 0 anti-air capability, so guess who's going to have a field day among those 8 ships that are also fairly spread out on large maps. And, after that, with the poor subs that are out of oxygen late in the game. 

 

I'm also a bit sceptical about a submarine's ability to "radio locate" ships during deep dives or, presumably, get radio located themselves.

Just make it 6 CVs + 6 Subs per team and let them have fun, while the other ships play in Sub/CV free matches. 

That way I will finally go back to being owned by DDs... I miss being angry at those pesky little guys. Now CVs are so annoying I don't have any nerves left to be angry at the DDs.

  • Funny 1
  • Bad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[UNICS]
Players
4,506 posts
15,942 battles

If the playerbase is large enough to support it - one Random Games for larger scale battles with cvs and submarines - increase player count on each side and map size, and the ordinary 'quick' 20 min Random Games without cvs and subs. Could be interesting and decent variety of battles to choose from.

 

An issue with subs and the necessity of dd as counter is the same as when you have to hunt down that border licking, 20km torp shima. It feels like a waste of resources to go there but it has to be done. It's a trade dd for dd, or dd for sub, you'll be out of the battle for a considerable amount of time by going there. All in all, you'll need a lot of dds per battle and perhaps an increased ship count per battle would be a decent solution.

  • Cool 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×