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WG_Lumberjack

SUBMARINES - discussion, feedback, opinions

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WG Staff
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Dear Captains,

 

We remind you that the submarines are currently in Beta testing and everything you will see is preliminary and subject to change. 

As the pool of players who want to join the test is pretty large, we want to ensure that the test server is loaded evenly.

To achieve that, we're going to distribute the first batch of invitations among a random slice of players.

New invitations will be sent out during the test so as to make the Beta Test accessible to all players who wish to participate.

Don’t worry If you don't find yourself in the first wave of Beta Test participants.

As the test goes on, we'll be sending out more and more invitations so that every player who wishes to can eventually join the Beta Test!

 

At this stage we invite you to check and evaluate the current concept of the game both in and against submarines.

During testing, you may encounter bugs, some of which could disrupt play or cause frustration.  
Therefore, we firstly ask you to remain patient, and secondly, provide feedback through the survey or in this feedback thread. 

As part of the beta test, we will work with you to improve the gameplay of submarines, make improvements or changes and prepare for the next stages of testing. 
After the Beta test, which will take place over several iterations, the submarines will be added to the game client as part of a separate game mode (as, for example, it was with the Arms Race, Rogue Wave or Space Battles).

This will allow us to test under main server conditions, with a larger number of participants as we make the finishing touches and adjust the balancing of the new class. 
Only after all these steps have been taken will we decide on the fate of submarines.

 

We want to be sure that: the gameplay of submarines will appeal to the majority and they fit well into the game and do not create technical problems. 
Thank you for participating, we very much look forward to hearing your feedback!
 

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[PORT]
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After some testruns I must say that I prefer the handling of the halloween-submarines.

Rather than an extra button for periscope-depth i'd like to have them in steps again (surface-periscope depth-deep depths)

The inability to fire torps while surfaced is strange - better let them fire but with bigger dispersion again.

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Question for WG: are you prepared to drop the whole concept of submarines if it proves unworkable?

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[BYOB]
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24 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

Question for WG: are you prepared to drop the whole concept of submarines if it proves unworkable?

Looking at the CV rework the answer should be clear. If the concept proves unworkable they will double down and push on through, even if it kills the game. Remember, fragile egos are at stake here!

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[VV]
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I am really itching to try out the submarines. Already have the test client installed but as luck would have it or better said the absence of it i didnt get selected for the first wave(as usual) :Smile_sad:

 

In any case i am already stockpiling credits and free xp for them in the main game, really cant wait to see how they are going to be.

 

At least for now what i can see it looks interesting

 

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I dont see how you can makw subs fit the game. And making DDs the primary DD hunters wont help anything. Or are actually doing that so DD stay away from BaBies? 

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10 minutes ago, H4d3zZz said:

I am really itching to try out the submarines. Already have the test client installed but as luck would have it or better said the absence of it i didnt get selected for the first wave(as usual) :Smile_sad:

 

In any case i am already stockpiling credits and free xp for them in the main game, really cant wait to see how they are going to be.

 

At least for now what i can see it looks interesting

 

Same, im frequeting this thread to see how they develop and whether i should play with them in the future (defo will once they come out).

 

Damm kinda itching to play them and give some decent feedback on them.

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[MIAU]
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49 minutes ago, Aragathor said:

Remember, fragile egos are at stake here!

I can assure you that I am not fragile and that I am currently not at any stake.

I'd still say that you are probably correct about the rest. Plenty of examples of past ideas being pushed on us forcefully.

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[NIKE]
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For those wondering how CV vs Sub interaction is going to work, the air detection is roughly the same as a DD whn surfaced/periscope. when at periscope it can be attacked.

This was the result of bringing a CV:

 

shot-19_09.20_20_53.04-0296.thumb.jpg.ff18f58cd9d9f26f3de73298c4e2115f.jpg

shot-19_09.20_20_53.14-0215.thumb.jpg.b5b3776bc8e97915e987eb2de5a1e86a.jpg

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5 hours ago, Capra76 said:

Question for WG: are you prepared to drop the whole concept of submarines if it proves unworkable?

Sub_Oct more or less said yes to that on the Birthday stream before. If and when they come to live they will be in a separate game mode to start

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[NED]
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I must say subs are peaking my curiosity. I've played them in last year's Halloween event and though indeed new and refreshing it bored me out after 3 or 4 matches. But that was PvE. When done properly it might add a huge thrill into wows but I see lots of liabilities. 

I hope WG will take this path slowly, like they are making this game from the bat again. And not fighting fire with gasoline like the CV plague which IMO is haunting this game to cater 0.5% of the playerbase. 

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1 hour ago, jerkchicken said:

The three great lies.

1) The Cheque is in the post.

2) I won't *** in your mouth.

3) There will be no submarines in World of Warships.

 

The only sub allowed in the game is @Sub_Octavian! :Smile_smile:

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Just had a look on YT of Panzerknacker

 

Pretty dull game but my observations. 

Torps dont do allot of damage but floods are another thing, looks easy, prolly isnt, tho i am curious and will defenetly have a go at them. 

They look like a good deterent and a good "swing the game around" if used properly. 

The players who know theyr map and plan ahead will do good in them by planing where ships might go through, downside is that i will make the game on one part more campy but on the other hand might keep people on the move since a camping ship is now a perfect target, the CV in the game above shows that (lol tho, you got hit, you should move.... nope im fine XD) 

As for the peanut gallery well its gonna be.... Just my thought... "weak buff nao", "OP remove this :etc_swear:

Just my quick observations, always feel free to correct me if i fuged something up or wooshed past the point. 

:Smile_honoring:

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[NIKE]
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My observations from playing a few games:

 

- The sonar pulse to get the homing ability is actually reasonably tricky to do. This is probably good, since we're talking about homing torps here. Several times I only got 1/2, and with some of the faster ships I didnt always get 1.

 

-Periscope depth being on "G" isnt very intuitive. I spent the first 2 minutes surfacing and diving trying to work out how to get down to periscope depth and stay there

 

-Torps, even with homing are still dodgeable.

 

-DD vs Subs tentatively is ok - DD dont like being spotted by something stealthy

 Subs dont like a DD coming near as depth charges kill subs very easily

 

-The torps work best on BB. You fire at BB less than you'd think though due to the range of the torps. Like with torp DD there's usually a bunch of other ships between you and your BB target of choice.

 

-Cruisers are probably the worst off - they usually need to be able to drop into stealth and subs make good passive spotters. At the same time cruisers have no real way of attacking subs beyond hoping they surface. They're also the biggest target of sub torps, since BB are too far away, and DD are too wriggly.

 

-CV treat subs like a torp dd - the air detection is about the same as a dd with aa off, even at periscope depth. If you can find a torp dd with a cv, you'll have no problem finding a sub. Unless the sub has fully dived, you can attack them just as easily too, and subs have very low HP. Even if they full dive, they need to come up at some point, and theres's only so far you can go at 26kn. Hitting subs with rockets when they're at periscope for 25-33% of their health.

 

-Sub vs sub is almost farcical. Unless they're at the surface/periscope they cant launch torps at each other. What this resulted in was underwater looking at each other contests (neither of us can do anything), underwater ramming contests, or benny hill style chases where one sub follows another trying to torp as he surfaces, while not being able to fire backwards.

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I would like a game mode without OP paper and fantasy ships, only the ships that actually were built.

Subs that do 20 knots submerged while firing homing torpedoes could be in a seperate game mode  with all the "balanz" and fantasy ships

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[-AP-]
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If you are going through with this, which it seems there is no stopping, there are two major changes which need to happen:

 

1. Submarine vs Submarine combat need to be a thing, submarines have to be able to counter each other, or they will be just as hated as the carrier class for much the same reasons, their only objective in the game would become to annoy all other classes. Make them able to torp and ping eachother under the water, i dont care if its realistic or not.

 

2. ALL classes need to be able to do *something* vs an underwater submarine, we simply cannot have situations where a teams dds di early, and the subs just clear out the rest of the defenseless enemy team, again this will make them just as hated as carriers for the same reasons.

 

3. Why do you get citadel torp hits when pinging an enemy twice? The pings are so fast, after a few games of getting used to it, it will be practically impossible to miss those pings, so what is the point? Where is the needed skill in getting these citadel hits? Why would you ever not just ping twice? It should instead be something like you launch one ping to get tracking on target, and then another ping where on the target you want to hit, as to either avoid the torp belt or a saturated bow. Just pressing a button twice to automatically get a bit higher damage on the torps seem kinda pointless

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4 minutes ago, thiextar said:

 

2. ALL classes need to be able to do *something* vs an underwater submarine, we simply cannot have situations where a teams dds di early, and the subs just clear out the rest of the defenseless enemy team, again this will make them just as hated as carriers for the same reasons.

I found subs had a tendency to get overrun - they have low detection, but using their ping puts them on the minimap. So while you might not be able to "see" them, you know where they are. Since their torps are close range, their position will be quite nearby.

They can drop out of detection by submerging fully, but they're not very good at exiting an area as their speed is still slower than other ships.

So you just sail to their last known position and wait for them to be forced to surface.

 

They thrive when ignored. They die reasonably easily if someone wants to run them down. Now obviously depending on whats left alive, you may not be able to dedicate time to running down the sub.

 

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[NED]
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Just saw Cr33d guy's comment. Having in mind this are preliminary tests I must say it peaked my curiosity. I watched it on my phone and I couldn't see if subs have limited air supply when under. But from what I'm looking at it might force more teamwork. DD's becoming more important. Though a depth charge as a consumable might be in order for non DD's. Also I advocate for a rear torpedo tube on subs. 

And last but not least: does anyone have an advice to get rid of that "I am potato" song in my head when talking about subs?! 

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[P-W-C]
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Subs will make the gameplay even more complicated and more chaos than the CV rework made. Year 2020 well be a big beta year of getting subs into the game, hotfixes one on another. 

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5 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

Subs will make the gameplay even more complicated and more chassis than the CV rework made. Year 2020 well be a big beta year of getting subs into the game, hotfixes one on another. 

Pretty exciting year :cap_popcorn:

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[-MWM-]
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Hi @WG_LumberjackIs there a posted Schedule for when the servers are up or down?  Yesterday was fine but cannot get back in this morning.

Thanks

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14 hours ago, Capra76 said:

"It doesn't work in the game".....................

Looking at the gameplay. My prediction is that in "Live" server.

 

1.There is no initiative do "Hunt" Subs.

2.DDs will avoid Subs and play like they always play, until very end of the battle, until there is nothing else to do. DDs are best ships do avoid submarines.

3.CVs will avoid hunting Subs, until very end of the battle, until there is nothing else to do.

4. There is not real interaction between Submariens.

5.Points 1-4 combined means. That Submarines will Farm CL/BB/CA with-out mutch of the opposition. And DDs and CV will avoid Sub hunting until there is nothing else left do farm. 

11 hours ago, Xevious_Red said:

My observations from playing a few games:

 

Well. Looking at the Test Server, it has exactly the same issue, that CV PTS had. Entire team (and both teams) are fully occupied by hunting submarines. And playing completly differently than in "Live".

 

This pre-occupation on Sub hunting allows opposing team do consentrate on Sub-hunting aswell. Because of that, different ship classes play in a way they would not, or could not, play in live. Masking or severly reducing impact of faults in the concept.

 

For example: CV is a Damage farming class - while Sub is easy do damage by CV in certain condition, its propeties like being able do dive when needed. Actually makes it fairly low priority target for CV, Because it can complety nullify time spent on searching it - reducing damage farming potential and overall efficency of the CV.

 

DDs can search for Subs mutch more easily, because enemy team is more occupied in hunting subs. Also hunting submaries, in general, is way less effective use of time and positioning for many-many DDs, than doing anything else.

 

WG is very reliant on "spreadsheet balancing". Looking at the battles in Test server and compareing it do what players do in Live. Battles are entirely different. Players are doing thing they would not do in Live, or could not do in live. Because of this, data in WGs Spreadsheet would be completly wrong. Exactly the same thing happened with CVs.

 

More I look at the thing, more and more convinced I am that it will go just like it went with CV Rework. Testing result come from situation, where everybody is fully commited do countering a tested class, played by players who are slowly getting a grasp with a class.

 

Problems I see:

 

1.Extremly limited interaction between Subs them self. (Making searching enemy Subs very low priority for Sub players.)

2. Very limited interaction between Subs and BB/CA/CL. Making surface ships targets, with very limited chance of doing anything meaningful in return.

3. It is mutch more dangerous and not particullary rewarding for DD (danger does not justify the return) do hunt Subs. (Making Subs low priority targets do DD, this is really bad if it is only class that can effectively counter Subs)

4. DDs, due the size and manouvrability and also due the fact that they can "hunt" subs. DDs can avoid Subs very effectively.

5.Due the nature of the CV, Subs are fairly low priority targets. It is more time effective do farm other classes.

6.Because "hunting" Subs are more dangerous for a DD than not hunting it. And because CV looses damage potential when hunting. There is no initiative do hunt Subs. There is initiative of not doing that.

 

 

 

 

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