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SlightlyOff

Why is there no Hard Mode Co-Op?

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Why is there no Hard Mode Co-Op?

 

With the best, most intelligent AIs they have, and maybe some better rewards?

 

Where is the downside?

 

I mean the player team is filled with bots anyway if there are not enough hoomons around, so there shouldn't even be an impact on waiting times.

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The average player can barely comprehend playing the existing AI. The whole point of Co-op is it to be easy .

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9 minutes ago, SlightlyOff said:

Why is there no Hard Mode Co-Op?

 

With the best, most intelligent AIs they have, and maybe some better rewards?

 

Where is the downside?

 

I mean the player team is filled with bots anyway if there are not enough hoomons around, so there shouldn't even be an impact on waiting times.

You mean randoms, where you get bots for team players and enemy consists of hardcore players in OP ships?:Smile_trollface:

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Vor 17 Minuten, Miki12345 sagte:

The average player can barely comprehend playing the existing AI.

Well they could still play the default easy-mode.

 

I can't see any downside, it would be a win-win for WG.

 

The easiest enhancement ever since they already got the bots and the basic mode.

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Just now, SlightlyOff said:

Well they could still play the default easy-mode.

 

There is no downside, it would be a win-win for WG.

Except "default easy mode" does prolong exp and credits gathering. And "patience" is in short supply in age of instant gratification:Smile_smile:

 

And if WG shelved any works on restoring removed PvE Operations "because REEEwork", you can be damn sure you won't get "coop hard" anytime soon.

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Vor 2 Minuten, Panocek sagte:

Except "default easy mode" does prolong exp and credits gathering. And "patience" is in short supply in age of instant gratification:Smile_smile:

Häh? What does that even mean? Speak English, man!

 

I did think of a downside in the meantime since it might cannibalize players out of the Random and Ranked queues.

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14 minutes ago, SlightlyOff said:

Why is there no Hard Mode Co-Op?

 

With the best, most intelligent AIs they have, and maybe some better rewards?

They are already the best AI they have.

 

Generally game developers struggle to program AI. It takes a lot of ressources, foresight and intelligence on behalf of the programmer himself. AI is not a feature that reveals in screenshots and visual marketing media. That is why we see lots of game with innovative graphics while AI is not much smarter than it was a decade ago. I would assume most developers prefer qualities that are easy to implement and predictable. You get an engine you get some samples and you can pretty much predict how many hours of work it will take to build a map or a 3D-model, whereas AI programming will result in unanticipated setbacks and leaps. Consumers are mostly rather dumb, so they miss the competence to appreciate AI, while cinematics may be appealing to them.

 

If you look at other games, AI quality in low-difficulty levels is set to ignore certain rules, basically being less intelligent than the standard. Then the standard is fully active in mid difficulty settings, while on high difficulty the AI only gets to cheat with better multipliers on certain key characteristics. So better AI is unlikely, it's rather going to be stronger opponents, so WG would have to modify the physics, the penetration mechanics, aiming precision, dispersion and such stuff.

Better coop is the Operations, where you simply have more opponents and an uneven fight.

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25 minutes ago, SlightlyOff said:

Why is there no Hard Mode Co-Op?

I think for the same reason there is no Hard mode in Operations which was promised a long time ago and abandoned in a gulag somewhere.

I can just speculate that WG sees the random teams for easy mode in Operations can't get to 5 stars, so there is no reason to make harder mode just for the small amount of above average players. I think it is the same with Co-Op.

As a bonus point why there is no reason for this kind of heresy mode: An introduction of this mode can be monetize ? 

 

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[-LA-]
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id love to see the PVE side expanded. you will get heavy resistance to the idea on this forum though it will be seen as a threat 

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30 minutes ago, SlightlyOff said:

Why is there no Hard Mode Co-Op?

 

With the best, most intelligent AIs they have, and maybe some better rewards?

 

Where is the downside?

 

I mean the player team is filled with bots anyway if there are not enough hoomons around, so there shouldn't even be an impact on waiting times.

There is - Operations.

They put the "better" Operations bots into CO-Op and killed co-op, so they removed them again.

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Gerade eben, HMS_Kilinowski sagte:

They are already the best AI they have.

No they're not, the bots in the operations are far smarter and even in the training rooms, you can choose beweten two levels of AI intelligence.

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2 minutes ago, SlightlyOff said:

I did think of a downside in the meantime since it might cannibalize players out of the Random and Ranked queues.

That is another reason why it won't happen unless WG literally runs out of stuff to add.

 

Besides, bots already have perfect aim and most of the time they do not show broadside, which is better than 90% of the playerbase. You've yet to see what AI Minotaur can do:cap_tea:

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6 minutes ago, SlightlyOff said:

No they're not, the bots in the operations are far smarter and even in the training rooms, you can choose beweten two levels of AI intelligence.

The bots in the operations only have programmed paths until they reach a certain point. It generates a feeling of purposeful thinking, it is not a higher level of AI per se.

The training room has different difficulty settings for the AI, but I am pretty sure they are in the game. At T1 the bots don't hit very well. I just yesterday ran into a bot-Kremlin in a coop, while doing some "snowflakes". That bot hit just as good as any better human player would. I don't know where the thresholds are, but different tiers probably also see different AI-settings.

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Vor 2 Minuten, HMS_Kilinowski sagte:

The bots in the operations only have programmed paths until they reach a certain point. It generates a feeling of purposeful thinking, it is not a higher level of AI per se.

That can't be all of it. For example the DD bots that spawn for the south group of the Ultimate Frontier started kiting but only when you started chasing them.

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2 minutes ago, SlightlyOff said:

That can't be all of it. For example the DD bots that spawn for the south group of the Ultimate Frontier started kiting but only when you started chasing them.

I heard similar reports from coops. People claim that bots did no longer go straight at them but kept a more opimal fighting distance, turned away, turned back in, this sort of thing. EVen in regular coops the bots don't just go in and ram you.

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I fully support the idea. However, there will never be an "improved reward" co-op mode, as WG is doing all in its power to reduce any other gamemode's feasibility, let alone their rewards, other than the two competitive modes (ranked, CB) and the mainstream mode: random. 

 

Although this does not apply to the general public, a few co-op players already net in at least 500+ base exp in a 5-8 minute coop run. This is often over 600, and on a better map, vs higher tier ships and a lucky enemy AI-lemmingtrain, you can breach the 900+ base exp line. 

 

If you learn how to efficiently play coop, type,- and ship-specifically, coop already generates the highest "base exp / input time" - ratio ingame. Combine this with levelling up multiple branches simultaneously, you'll already be playing without having to wait for a single ship to come back to port. If it weren't for the still-low-per-game exp compared to other modes (thus, few players spend consumable camo's or flags for a round in this mode), much more people would be farming already. 

 

I'd personally love to see even more exp for coops, but it is just not going to happen. 

 

P.S.: There actually IS a hardmode already designed by wg, and it is used quite often on the PTR to avoid farming of any sort. The current AI is already spot-on in terms of aiming and knowing where you are, in fact, they're great at focusing, too. And delaying their shot after cooldown until you show broadside or are about to launch your torps with a DD. And let's not even get started on how well they avoid torps in the first place. All that's missing are two things. Firstly, human anticipation and mindgaming (will the 15-km-away Zao turn into me or away as soon as I fire, will he break his turn, etc). This can be simulated, at the expense of proper aiming each time (randomly, with a 10-20% chance, make the bot fire to a highly feasible, yet anticipated location of the targeted human ship instead of firing at the calculated current path of the ship for 80-90% of the salvos). The second thing would be that the bots do NOT charge into battle, but assume edit* methods for playing. Such as turning 90 degrees away from the initial cap they're at, afk'ing at max shooting range, forming a random lemmingtrain while leaving the other 1-2 caps free (and thus giving many players of that game 0 targets to shoot at or practice)... all those things that would annoy a human in coop (and both teams even in other gamemodes, hence the expression Edit* ). Although we already see these to smaller extents in coop currently, too, the PTR is horrible. There are actually cases of PTR co-ops "timing out" after 20 minutes have passed! The only thing that deviates co-op from randoms there is that ALL bots SIMULTANEOUSLY do the things we consider noobish on the live server, while they're still accurate. In short, the only way to make it more challenging as it is would be to either "superbuff" or uptier the bots (that would be truly feasible, I think), or have them act as they do on PTR. This is a dangerous area to let WG delve into - they'd probably make the worst out of it, like with CV's, operations, the winning mentality of starsaving on ranked, etc. 

I fully support the idea. However, there will never be an "improved reward" co-op mode, as WG is doing all in its power to reduce any other gamemode's feasibility, let alone their rewards, other than the two competitive modes (ranked, CB) and the mainstream mode: random. 

 

Although this does not apply to the general public, a few co-op players already net in at least 500+ base exp in a 5-8 minute coop run. This is often over 600, and on a better map, vs higher tier ships and a lucky enemy AI-lemmingtrain, you can breach the 900+ base exp line. 

 

If you learn how to efficiently play coop, type,- and ship-specifically, coop already generates the highest "base exp / input time" - ratio ingame. Combine this with levelling up multiple branches simultaneously, you'll already be playing without having to wait for a single ship to come back to port. If it weren't for the still-low-per-game exp compared to other modes (thus, few players spend consumable camo's or flags for a round in this mode), much more people would be farming already. 

 

I'd personally love to see even more exp for coops, but it is just not going to happen. 

 

P.S.: There actually IS a hardmode already designed by wg, and it is used quite often on the PTR to avoid farming of any sort. The current AI is already spot-on in terms of aiming and knowing where you are, in fact, they're great at focusing, too. And delaying their shot after cooldown until you show broadside or are about to launch your torps with a DD. And let's not even get started on how well they avoid torps in the first place. All that's missing are two things. Firstly, human anticipation and mindgaming (will the 15-km-away Zao turn into me or away as soon as I fire, will he break his turn, etc). This can be simulated, at the expense of proper aiming each time (randomly, with a 10-20% chance, make the bot fire to a highly feasible, yet anticipated location of the targeted human ship instead of firing at the calculated current path of the ship for 80-90% of the salvos). The second thing would be that the bots do NOT charge into battle, but assume Edit* methods for playing. Such as turning 90 degrees away from the initial cap they're at, afk'ing at max shooting range, forming a random lemmingtrain while leaving the other 1-2 caps free (and thus giving many players of that game 0 targets to shoot at or practice)... all those things that would annoy a human in coop (and both teams even in other gamemodes, hence the expression Edit*). Although we already see these to smaller extents in coop currently, too, the PTR is horrible. There are actually cases of PTR co-ops "timing out" after 20 minutes have passed! The only thing that deviates co-op from randoms there is that ALL bots SIMULTANEOUSLY do the things we consider noobish on the live server, while they're still accurate. In short, the only way to make it more challenging as it is would be to either "superbuff" or uptier the bots (that would be truly feasible, I think), or have them act as they do on PTR. This is a dangerous area to let WG delve into - they'd probably make the worst out of it, like with CV's, operations, the winning mentality of starsaving on ranked, etc. 

 

Edit: No it is not a fun expression, please watch the language!

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Coop has loads of potential.

 

Current 4 minute matches are just plain boring and are mostly used to test new ships.

 

I would like to see more PVE development, but unfortunately its not in WG vision.

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3 hours ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

They are already the best AI they have.

I've sometimes wondered if co-op would be more fun if the reds had more bots. They could be as dumb as now but the challenge would be a bit bigger.

 

As it is now I only play it to get quick guaranteed wins for rewards. 

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[-IAN-]
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As a 3 year+ Co-Op player I can tell you that WG already tried "Hard" bots a few times over the years and it never works, plus they added a few new Co-Op modes about 2.5-3 years back as well. The new modes were fun (sit in the middle of the map and get attacked by waves of bots, convoy escort type etc) and they became the much better "Scenarios" at a later date.

 

However the "Hard" bots were awful for your average Co-Op player. They played better than the Scenario bots do now plus they had 19pt captains (later 15pt), ship modules, camos/signals etc (which also carried over to the old Scenarios too before they were nerfed) and the general Co-Op WR plummeted which caused an uproar. Then they tried "medium" bots which just turned and ran away from the players, prolonging every game by adding an extra 5+ minutes which everyone hated as well.

 

So after a few different versions we're left with "Low" bots for Co-Op because people want 100% WR with fast 3-5 min games, "Medium" bots for Scenarios and no "Hard bots unless you use the training room.

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Vor 39 Minuten, IanH755 sagte:

So after a few different versions we're left with "Low" bots for Co-Op because people want 100% WR with fast 3-5 min games, "Medium" bots for Scenarios and no "Hard bots unless you use the training room.

Well the hard mode would of course be optional, I thought that goes without saying.

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5 hours ago, SlightlyOff said:

Why is there no Hard Mode Co-Op?

 

With the best, most intelligent AIs they have, and maybe some better rewards?

 

Where is the downside?

 

I mean the player team is filled with bots anyway if there are not enough hoomons around, so there shouldn't even be an impact on waiting times.

The average PVE bot is still clearly superior to the average player, because they actually work TOGETHER, while most players do not.

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1 hour ago, lafeel said:

The average PVE bot is still clearly superior to the average player, because they actually work TOGETHER, while most players do not.

Well, they actually try to pull off focus fire and sail together unless ships given to them are limiting factor, like Minsk and Colorado:cap_book:

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