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TrangleC

does the game secretly aim for the player?

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I haven't played many battles yet, but it seems I was able to develop a decent feel/instinct for aiming.
It is rare that I outright miss a salvo and when it happens, it is usually because the target changes course or speed after I shot.
The point being, I have just played my 170th battle and seemingly have already developed a good and pretty reliable gut feeling for how to shoot and that includes shooting the Kongo's guns at their max range of over 20 km. That might even be easier, because many people don't expect to be shot at that range and take less evasive action.
 
Then again.... when I think back on my very first few battles (Which happened many years ago, because I was an on-off-player who played a few battles, was bored or annoyed, uninstalled the game and tried it again years later.), I don't remember ever having had trouble hitting anything in this game, right from the beginning....
(No, I'm not bragging, my point is coming up:)
 
In fact, my shooting is so remarkably reliable and effortless, that I suspect that it isn't really me being good, but that there is some subtle, gentle help happening in the background, which wouldn't surprise me, because if I were a game developer coding a game like this, I would be super worried that frustration from missing too many shots will drive away too many players.
 
I think the game is rigged and secretly helps people hit their shots.
 
Hitting stuff with the mortar in the good old "Worms" games was harder and that was round-based (meaning the target didn't move), 2D and the shots didn't fly for 5 seconds before landing.
 
Think about it. In real life there was a network of hundreds of highly trained professionals, measuring distances, making calculations, using the first super computers, just to aim the guns of a warship. What are the chances that us random gaming schmucks can basically do the same just from looking at a moving picture of a warship and clicking a mouse at where we think the shots should go?
Of course it is easier because there are no waves and no wind and no curvature of the world and all that and you don't need to turn levers and crap like that, like they had to do on real WW1/2 warships, but still.... doing it that easily, with that hit ratio and that reliability, against moving and turning targets?
Highly unlikely.
 
If this were a realistic simulation, even with waves and other disturbances turned down, the average WOWS player would probably hit with 1 out of 100 salvos, even with all the conveniences a modern game UI provides. What is happening in this game, with all those tens of thousands of often inexperienced (like me) players, just easily hitting with most of the salvos they fire, makes not much sense.
 
Especially the way I basically need almost no time to get used to new guns on new ships is super suspicious.
Normally you'd expect that when you switch ships to something with very differently behaving guns, it would be super jarring and require a long training period to get used to the new ballistics. A good baseball player isn't also automatically a good basketball player, you know what I mean? Skills with one kind of ballistics don't just seamlessly transfer to another one.
But they do in this game.
I can switch from guns with slow projectiles and high firing arcs to fast projectiles with flat firing arcs and don't really feel as if I need to adjust much and still keep hitting stuff reliably.
 
I'm not that good, at no game.
I'm a old casual guy who plays a hand full of battles once in a while. It would be really weird if I somehow would happen to have a huge talent for hitting virtual ships with virtual artillery in this random game.
No, can't believe that.
 
And... you know, I'm not even good at throwing balls or anything in real life. My father was a lazy POS who came home from work and just collapsed in front of the TV and never taught me to throw balls or anything else. If my mother wouldn't have taught me how to ride a bike, I wouldn't even know how to do that. Every time I try to throw anything, I totally embarrass myself like one of those politicians who throw the first ball of a baseball game on TV.
The point being, there is no reason to believe that I have a talent for making ballistic calculations in the subconscious part of my mind and that that would explain why I have such an easy time hitting stuff in this game.
 
Of course you can still miss targets, but I think only if your aim is really, really off and the little helper bot in the background can't do it anymore, without making it too obvious.
 
Normally I would assume it must be some open secret that the game aims for you (or better said, nudges the shots from where you actually aimed to where you should have aimed) and I, as a newbie, just don't know what everybody else knows and thus are making a fool out of myself with my talk about how suspicious this is, but when I see experienced players like IChase make tutorial videos about aiming, I guess it isn't a open secret after all?

 

And I'm not too worried people will think I'm trying to humble brag about what a great shot I am, because everybody playing this game is a great shot. That is just my point. People shooting at me don't seem to have any more trouble hitting than I have.
If there wouldn't be background assistance, you'd expect there to be huge differences in hit ratios between experienced players and newbies like me and of course there are small differences, but in a un-rigged game, they would be way bigger.
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No, it is not.

That is what the target lock is for.

 

Without target lock you aim at the thing your crosshairs point at, that is usually not the target ship.

Without target lock you would shoot at islands or open water.

 

With target lock the game aims your guns in relation to the target you are locked on.

This allows to hit targets behind islands or targets that change distance in relation to you.

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@TrangleC its possible. And it would make sense. But nobody knows for certain, one way or the other.

 

One thing is for certain tho: there is an auto-correction for shells. You notice that, when you shoot at an enemy, that will ground, while your shells are in the air. They will miss the target and hit the island eventhought I took into account the beaching and aimed before that island. So the game does somehow correct/calculate there.

 

Another example, where you notice this: 2 ships are very close to each other, lets say they are 12 and 15 km away from you, in a direct line for your aim. You lock by mistake on the guy in the front but aim on the guy in the back - you will not hit, the shells will actually land between those two ships, no where near where you had your mouse set. The only explanation for this is again, that the game corrects your aim because its thinking "you want to shoot the other guy, since you locked on it". If that wouldnt be the case, the only thing, that the lock would impact is the dispersion, which is always better when locked up compared to shooting without lock, f.e. at invisible targets.

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wows-numbers says the hit ratio for your shells is 24.93%. Those playing this game quite well sit at above 30% (I am not one of them). The game does lock target for you, as @ColonelPete explained, otherwise that ratio would be lower.

 

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1 minute ago, cmdr__nik said:

wows-numbers says the hit ratio for your shells is 24.93%. Those playing this game quite well sit at above 30% (I am not one of them). The game does lock target for you, as @ColonelPete explained, otherwise that ratio would be lower.

 

You talk as if you wouldn't even know what dispersion is.

Yeah, out of a salvo of 8 shots (example Kongo, which is my most played ship atm), not all 8 hit. If you are lucky, 2 hit, but that doesn't mean THE SALVO missed. You understand?

 

If that stat would tell you how many salvos I shot at least had 1 hit, the ratio would be somewhere at 90%. I wasn't lying and I wasn't exaggerating when I said it really is rare that I miss a salvo totally.

 

In case you haven't noticed, I am not complaining that I miss too much. I am saying I hit suspiciously well and it makes no sense.

You can look up the videos I uploaded on Youtube (same channel name as my forum name here) if you think I can't shoot. And you know what, what makes this so silly is the fact that maybe yes, maybe I can't shoot, but I still hit, which is the whole point of this thread.

 

 

And no, I am not talking about Target Lock here. Hitting targets is all about leading the shots right and Target Lock only helps you with that on follow up shots, not for the initial salvo. My issue is that the initial salvo rarely misses and that is just weird.

I hardly profit from Target Lock anyways, because I never sit there, staring at a target in zoom for a minute till my guns reloaded twice. I zoom out and look around when my shots are in the air and have to re-aim all over again when the next salvo is ready.

 

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5 minutes ago, Bics93 said:

Someone has a TL; DR for me? :cap_tea:

Better a long comment that has something to say and a worthwhile point to make, that a 1-liner that is totally superfluous and doesn't add anything to the conversation, don't you think?

 

Nobody forces you to read anything here and nobody forces you to clutter up a thread with trite platitudes.

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3 minutes ago, TrangleC said:

You talk as if you wouldn't even know what dispersion is.

Yeah, out of a salvo of 8 shots (example Kongo, which is my most played ship atm), not all 8 hit. If you are lucky, 2 hit, but that doesn't mean THE SALVO missed. You understand?

 

If that stat would tell you how many salvos I shot at least had 1 hit, the ratio would be somewhere at 90%. I wasn't lying and I wasn't exaggerating when I said it really is rare that I miss a salvo totally.

 

In case you haven't noticed, I am not complaining that I miss too much. I am saying I hit suspiciously well and it makes no sense.

You can look up the videos I uploaded on Youtube (same channel name as my forum name here) if you think I can't shoot. And you know what, what makes this so silly is the fact that maybe yes, maybe I can't shoot, but I still hit, which is the whole point of this thread.

 

 

And no, I am not talking about Target Lock here. Hitting targets is all about leading the shots right and Target Lock only helps you with that on follow up shots, not for the initial salvo. My issue is that the initial salvo rarely misses and that is just weird.

I hardly profit from Target Lock anyways, because I never sit there, staring at a target in zoom for a minute till my guns reloaded twice. I zoom out and look around when my shots are in the air and have to re-aim all over again when the next salvo is ready.

 

Then shoot without target lock.

You will see the difference.

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2 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Then shoot without target lock.

You will see the difference.

I often shoot without Target Lock. Doesn't everybody?

The main effect is that dispersion goes through the roof and the shots spread over half the GUI, so that effect would overshadow any effect a shutting off of the automatic following of the targets movement could have. I still often hit at least one shot when blind shooting.

 

You guys seem to kind of miss the point here.

I'm not arguing that I'm a great shot and the game is sabotaging me by screwing with my aim. I'm arguing the opposite.

If Target Lock were the only help you get when shooting, that would mean we all, me included, just happen to be super good at aiming and hitting 90% of our first salvos, before we even had a chance to use Target Lock's help in determining how far we need to lead a target.

Maybe you all are great shots, but I know that the chance that I am one is super low and so it makes me suspicious when I have such an easy time hitting stuff with all sorts of guns at all sorts of ranges.

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7 minutes ago, lossi_2018 said:

Or use dds or cruisers to have some of the 'better' players total aim numbers. Up close u know? :cap_rambo:

Yeah, I guess so. 

I also suspect that a 25% hit ratio is pretty good considering that I have almost exclusively been playing low tier BBs yet. It probably gets better the more I play more accurate guns.

And again, I'm not talking about personal growth and achievement here, I'm talking about the bot doing most of the work for me and I'll be given those better stats, not earn them.

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Combination of things;

 

-The game does assist with targetting; once you lock a target the reticle tracks with it, so you only need to choose how much lead. It also applies the correct vertical dispersion for that ship. If it didn't then people would hit a lot less. While this would be more realistic, and allow for greater skill difference, the reality is also that it would be quite boring. Sure it would appeal to purists, but for your average player hitting 3 shells out of 100 would be rather dull.

 

-Playing at lower tiers the range to targets is less, and players have more of a tendency to sail in straight lines, which makes hitting them pretty easy.

 

-Dispersion for battleships makes them quite shotgun like, particularly at low tiers. This makes them more likely to hit "something" with a shell as long as you fire in vaguely the right direction. It makes it less likely to hit with all shells, but more likely to hit with at least 1

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1 hour ago, principat121 said:

Do you need this?

  Reveal hidden contents

weirdalfoil_2322.jpg.39fdd46e775239672429ada31a45ec12.jpg

 

I think you can't argue with the following points:

1.) This is not some small niche simulation game that is made by a bunch of enthusiasts for a small niche audience. This is a game that is supposed to make money by attracting a large player base and keeping those people playing as much and as long as possible.

2.) Making it too hard and too frustrating would drive away a lot of people and turn it into one of those niche games that are only played by a hand full of people who are really good at it.

 

ForlornSailor is clearly right when he says it would make sense to make the game more accessible by secretly and subtly helping noobs.

(Noobs like me and probably like you, if you react that way to the suggestion that it might not all be you who is hitting those shots.)

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26 minutes ago, TrangleC said:

I often shoot without Target Lock. Doesn't everybody?

The main effect is that dispersion goes through the roof and the shots spread over half the GUI, so that effect would overshadow any effect a shutting off of the automatic following of the targets movement could have. I still often hit at least one shot when blind shooting.

 

Target Lock is the circle that appears around 1 boat (typically the one your aiming reticle is closest to). The game automatically locks on, provided the ship is in range. You can override and lock onto another by pressing 'X'. I have had a quick look at a couple of your videos. In those, you do not shoot without target lock, apart from the video where you try to shoot at a DD in smoke and miss, until you come close enough that he appears (at which point target lock is acquired).

 

I never disagreed that the game helps us all, that is what makes it less frustrating, as others have said, since it isn't meant to be a simulator. 

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8 minutes ago, TrangleC said:

 

ForlornSailor is clearly right when he says it would make sense to make the game more accessible by secretly and subtly helping noobs.

Its not really secret or subtle;

 

-The target lock provides tracking and corrected verticle dispersion.

-The ship models are about 3x bigger than RL so they're easier to hit.

-Even at max range the flight time is much less than RL, so you only need to lead the target by 6-10 seconds rather than 30. This makes leading easier, and less time for target to change course.

 

Its not a simulation, its an arcade game that uses historic models and a slight nod to realism if it doesnt get in the way of gameplay

 

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13 minutes ago, TrangleC said:

ForlornSailor is clearly right when he says it would make sense to make the game more accessible by secretly and subtly helping noobs.

That is the problem with not thoroughly tought thoughts. You have to see the drawbacks of your idea as well. 

 

What happens when the "secet help" somehow vanishes?! Will these players not tend to quit the game at all, because it is too difficult for them now?! 

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22 minutes ago, Xevious_Red said:

Combination of things;

 

-The game does assist with targetting; once you lock a target the reticle tracks with it, so you only need to choose how much lead. It also applies the correct vertical dispersion for that ship. If it didn't then people would hit a lot less. While this would be more realistic, and allow for greater skill difference, the reality is also that it would be quite boring. Sure it would appeal to purists, but for your average player hitting 3 shells out of 100 would be rather dull.

 

-Playing at lower tiers the range to targets is less, and players have more of a tendency to sail in straight lines, which makes hitting them pretty easy.

 

-Dispersion for battleships makes them quite shotgun like, particularly at low tiers. This makes them more likely to hit "something" with a shell as long as you fire in vaguely the right direction. It makes it less likely to hit with all shells, but more likely to hit with at least 1

I'm talking about how easy it is to find the right amount of lead to hit with the first salvo.

Target Lock doesn't really help you with that.

Target Lock helps with follow up salvos, but I pretty much always hit with the first salvo and so do the people shooting at me.

 

There must be something else at work behind the curtain.

 

In real life, real artillerists needed to shoot a few salvos and see where they land to then adjust and finally hit.

In this game, I pretty much never need to do that. I just look at the target, guess purely by gut feeling, don't even look at the distance display, shoot and hit 90% of the time.

That makes no sense.

 

Since I came back to the game I almost exclusively played the Kongo and all my observations I base my suspicions on, were made in the Kongo.

The Kongo has a range of 21.2 km, which is more than many tier 9 and 10 BBs have and I have little problem hitting targets at the very edge of that range.

 

Sure, dispersion is a big factor and it is rare that more than 2 out of 8 shells hit, but the center of the dispersion zone is still very easy to place right in the center of the target.

 

Often when I shoot at a target very far away and have the time to look at my salvo aproaching it, I think: "Dang, that one will miss. Doesn't look good." but then something happens, as if the shots would get faster or slower in mid-air, which is impossible for me to say for sure by looking at them from behind, and the closer the salvo comes to the target, the better it looks and then it will splash down exactly around the center of the target ship, where I wanted it.

 

It is fishy and it has nothing to do with Target Lock.

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1 minute ago, principat121 said:

That is the problem with not thoroughly tought thoughts. You have to see the drawbacks of your idea as well. 

 

What happens when the "secet help" somehow vanishes?! Will these players not tend to quit the game at all, because it is too difficult for them now?! 

Why would it vanish?

What kind of argument is that?

Because it would be bad if something vanished, it can't be there?

What if gravity would stop working tomorrow?

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10 minutes ago, TrangleC said:

Target Lock doesn't really help you with that. There must be something else at work behind the curtain.

Yes, some obvious pointers:

  • you know the range to target with 100% accuracy
  • your guns choose the right elevation at all times
  • it is much easier to guess the speed of the target in game than in reality
  • there is no wind in game
  • waves do not influence your shots in game
  • the crosshairs give help to find the right lead, while in reality you needed complicated calculations
  • the flight times of the shells are MUCH shorter than in reality
  • as mentioned above the ship models are MUCH bigger than in reality

 

Example Iowa

10km - flight time in game 5.2s - flight time in reality 13.2s

20km - flight time in game 12s - flight time in reality 29.6s

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20 minutes ago, TrangleC said:

 

In real life, real artillerists needed to shoot a few salvos and see where they land to then adjust and finally hit.

In this game, I pretty much never need to do that. I just look at the target, guess purely by gut feeling, don't even look at the distance display, shoot and hit 90% of the time.

That makes no sense.

Because in real life artillerists dont get a nice green circle showing where on the ocean their shells are going to land. Nor do they have a magic pointer that lets them point at a spot of the oceans and have the guns automatically aim there including correcting for elevation.

 

Real life would involve guessing the distance to the target, calculating the elevation required to reach that distance given muzzle velocity and drag, calculating the angle to target vs your bearing, then calculating the lead required after including flight time.

Subsequent volleys would allow you to refine based on how out your calculations are.

 

You put a green circle slightly in front and left click.

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I know, I have mentioned the ways a modern gaming GUI and UI in general make things easier.

I still think even with that in mind, shooting is suspiciously easy in this game.

As I said, in "Worms" and other games where you need to aim arching, indirect fire, it is usually harder and you really need to develop a feeling for it by doing it often.

 

As I also said, I don't even look at the distance. It is 100% gut feeling when I shoot. I just watch the target for a second or two, shoot and pretty much always hit.

And it is like that even when I shoot new guns that are different from the ones I'm used to and have very different ballistics.

It makes no sense.

 

But we are turning in circles here.

You guys all think I'm wrong, so I surrender.

We all who play this game really just happen to be demigods with a born talent for judging ballistics at a short glance, even ballistics we never used before and had no time to develop a feel for first.

Got it.

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4 minutes ago, TrangleC said:

We all who play this game really just happen to be demigods with a born talent for judging ballistics at a short glance, even ballistics we never used before and had no time to develop a feel for first.

Got it.

We just play an arcade game with dumbed down controls and targeting help.

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5 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

We just play an arcade game with dumbed down controls and targeting help.

Then why is it so controversial or unthinkable to suggest that there is more help in the background than gets officially acknowledged?

The controls in other games are simple and dumbed down too and it still tends to be harder to aim indirect fire for first salvo hits.

But again, turning in circles here, so whoever wants to have the last word, can have it.

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1 minute ago, TrangleC said:

Then why is it so controversial or unthinkable to suggest that there is more help in the background than gets officially acknowledged?

The controls in other games are simple and dumbed down too and it still tends to be harder to aim indirect fire for first salvo hits.

But again, turning in circles here, so whoever wants to have the last word, can have it.

Because the system was explained to us in detail and some of us played it for quite a long time, therefore we know how it works.

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