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Sir_Sinksalot

Overmatch vs Overpenetration

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Hi guys,

 

So I watched youtube vids on this and I'm a little confused. I understand the overmatch rule from WoT where something similar is in place whereby a gun of a certain caliber will ignore auto-bounce angles of a targets orientation that would otherwise have caused a non-penetration and ricochet if the gun caliber did not exceed the targets armor by X many times. So I get that. 

 

Problem is that I am struggling to grasp the additional feature of where a shot can then overpenetrate a target. Ok, the overmatch is governed by armor thickness vs gun caliber whereas the over-penetration is governed by armor thickness vs the guns penetration value.... BUT.... which one takes preferential control and at what point is one preventing the others outcome?

 

In other words, if I was to shoot a ship where my gun caliber overmatches that ships armor but my penetration value also overpenetrates that ships armor, which one is going to be the outcome?

 

Thanks

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from the wiki:

 

on overpenetration

Quote

Unlike HE, the AP shell does damage only if it penetrates the armor. The fuse of the AP shell is initiated after it passes through armor, and historically the fuse times were calculated in a way that would allow the shell to explode after traveling about ten or so meters after passing through the armor; that way the shell exploded around the middle of the battleship. That means that when AP shells are fired at lightly armored and relatively small target, they might over-penetrate -- explode once they passed through the entire ship, or not even explode, if the shell doesn't encounter enough armor to detonate. Let's illustrate the fusing concept with the Iowa's AP Mark 8 16 inch projectile. Its Mark 21 Base Detonating Fuse (BDF) had a delay of 0.033 seconds. Fuse activation requires a resistance equal to 1.5 inches (3.8 cm) of armor at 0 degrees obliquity or 0.375 inches (1 cm) at 65 degrees obliquity. The muzzle velocity for a new gun and a full charge is 762 meters per second. Therefore, if the shell were to immediately hit an armor plate 1.5 inches thick after exiting the barrel, it would explode 762*0.033 = 25 meters after passing through that armor plate

Quote

Penetrations deal x0.33 of the shell's listed damage. Whether AP or HE, it must penetrate the armor and detonate inside the ship. Over-penetrations deal x0.10 of the shell's listed damage. Over-penetration is when a shell penetrates the ship through-and-through, before it has a chance to detonate inside the ship.

on overmatch

Quote

Properly angling the ship matters a great deal when the enemy is shooting AP shells: when an AP shell encounters armor at an angle, it has to pass a greater amount of armor for penetration. Additionally, at certain critical angle (below ~20-40°), the shell will simply ricochet, even if it might have ad enough armor penetration. A shell may still cause damage after the ricochet, but only to the same ship. If the armor thickness is less than 1/14.3 of shell's caliber, a ricochet does not occur regardless of armor encounter angle. This phenomena is called overmatching.

 

meaning:

overmatch is relevant for AP shells as they might ricochet on highly acute angles dealing no damage. when overmatch applies no ricochet happens and the damage is applied (depending if it's a penetration, over-pen or a citadel hit).

overpenetration happens when the AP fuse isn't "correctly" triggered and doesn't explode inside the ship - or in other words: not enough ship behind the entry point of the shell.

 

there might be situations where overmatch and overpenetration might occur at the same time, but in general their circumstances are the opposite of each other - an acute angle often means shooting along the length of the ship (shells fired from the front sector bouncing of the belt of a ship), while having not enough ship usually implies shooting along the width of a ship (shells with a long fuse timer fired at the broadside of a narrow ship).

 

 

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On 9/18/2019 at 3:56 PM, Sir_Sinksalot said:

which one takes preferential control and at what point is one preventing the others outcome?

 

In other words, if I was to shoot a ship where my gun caliber overmatches that ships armor but my penetration value also overpenetrates that ships armor, which one is going to be the outcome?

In short: None takes precedence. Both are separate entities.

 

Overmatch (as in tanks) concerns the interaction of your shells with armor (i.e. part of the process not a result)

Each time your shell his any part of the enemies armor the game checks first weather overmatch applies which would prevent the bounce-check/roll.

 

while an Overpenetration is one of the possible outcomes of your shell hitting.

It means either your shell didn't arm i.e. it never met any single plate with an effective thickness of >= 1/6 of the shells caliber or that is exits the ship before the fuse-timer runs out after arming.

 

A gun that will overmatch a section of armor it hits will in basically every case have enough penetration to pass through it anyways barring ricochets

(we are generally talking about BB-caliber guns against cruiser-level armor or less here).

Since the overmatch-ration is 1/14.3 and the fuse needs 1/6 effective armor in a single layer to arm your shell needs to hit at a very steep angle to arm (overmatch would prevent auto-bounce).

If either the angle isn't steep enough and the shell doesn't hit internal bulkheads of sufficient thickness you'll get an overmatch.

Likewise since the armor-sections thin enough to allow overmatch are generally found on the bow/stern and superstructure section of your targets that are much slimmer than the beam of the ship

your shell might have enough velocity to travel the entire width of the target-section and exit the ship before the fuse can initiate the detonation.

 

For tanks it makes some sense to omit an overpenetration as a possible result since even if your shell doesn't do anything but punch through the tank in a straight line without hitting anything of note inside

that still means you'll have a bunch of super-hot metal fragments from the penetrated armor fly though a small box full of fuel, ammo, sensitive components and squishy flesh-bits.

(Ofc the dmg is much bigger if your shell disintegrates during penetration ect)

Ships are much much larger often with redundant components and entire sections mostly irrelevant to their ability to stay in combat.

So weather your shell blows up a thing or just punches a hole through a steam-pipe in the bakery makes more of a difference by the sheer volume that's affected.

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@rnat

Are you sure on that 1/6 of shell diameter for arming the AP Shell? Isnt the 1/6 the penetration of standard-HE shells?

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10 hours ago, Noray said:

@rnat

Are you sure on that 1/6 of shell diameter for arming the AP Shell? Isnt the 1/6 the penetration of standard-HE shells?

It's 1/6 for both HE-pen and fusing AP. The number is in official WG vids.

 

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I guess experience and ship knowledge will eventually make this much easier for me, to know when to use what, and why I should and shouldn't etc. In the meantime it's a bit hard for me to break away from using HE as a noob all rounder munition. For some of my ships like a Fury Taco, which has a really slow reload, I find it tricky enough to land shots on ranged and fast medium range targets plus they change direction all the time so it's really punishing to miss shots but when those shots land and they all wash out as ricochet, non pens or over pens it's really disheartening.

 

So I think you can probably understand my reluctance to use AP. The enemy ship might be in lovely broadside presentation while I'm loading but then isn't and in an auto-bounce position when I'm ready to shoot... feels bad, whereas with HE, generally it's going to do some damage, knock out modules and likely to set the target on fire too which seems at times to reliably rack up strong amounts of damage while also rendering the enemy ship less damaging to me since maybe he is now down a gun or torp launcher etc. Don't get me wrong, I played several battles with the Taco on full AP mode and hit a citadel which was a thing of beauty, a showstopper to that enemy cruiser but even though I aim for the waterline even manage to judge the distance for an accurate read of my guns... they seem very rare. My shots are going right where, according to vids and screenshots, these citadels should be but they're just not getting triggered very much. 

 

That brings me to another point, what style of guns do you guys like to use, fewer guns with big alpha damage but slow reloading or lots of smaller caliber guns with lower damage and fast reloads? I guess from a noob perspective with a lot to learn I have found ships with lots of smaller caliber guns with lower damage, fast reloading guns, like U.S. cruisers, is way more fun to play and way more reliable to land shots, just much more forgiving and useful for me right now. That's pretty simple logic really, the time between reloads is much less, there's always generally a few guns in a ready state to fire and so I'm not effectively a defenseless ship for very long compared to a ship with just a few big, hard hitting guns with slow reloads. Added to that, I find it having lots of guns very useful to close in on an accurate lead and after a couple of shots, will be right on the money with where I need to shoot to accurately hit that ship with a full volley and just keep a constant barrage of shots flowing. Sure, they're not doing mind blowing levels of damage but it's a good steady flow of damage, a real thorn in the side of anyone's ship, munching through their modules, their repair kits, setting them on fire as soon as they are in a position to be set on fire again... I just find lost of smaller caliber fast firing guns really comfortable. Sure, with the fewer big caliber, big damage guns I could inflict a big citadel hit and more damage with each shot but I just don't find that happens a whole lot(because I suck most likely) and instead I strike over-pens and/or completely missed shots so I'm hanging about not doing a whole lot of damage and waiting for reloads while the enemy ship is dealing damage to me and/or slips away relatively unharmed... all the while if I had a ship with lots of smaller caliber fast reloading guns I would have been constantly peppering him with damage and fires right up to the very moment he finds safe cover(or dies) so I would have extracted almost the full potential from that enemy ships exposure time.

 

What do you guys feel about it and what style of guns do you find yourself being more effective with?

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