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Erik_Aukan

Monarch is utter trash!

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Re-grinding the Royal Navy line, I unfortunately got to tier 8, the Monarch

What utter trash this ship is!

It has all the bad stats. Low speed (relatively to tier 8), really bad armour (eats lots of pens) and absolutely abysmal guns.

 

I hoped I would grow to enjoy the ship, playing other RN navy BBs with a fair amount of success, but this stinker really ticks me off!

firing a full broadside against a straightgoing, reversing  cruiser at 12kms, it manages to hit with mid section with only 1 of the 9 shells for a crappy damage without a fire!!!

I'm convined that sometimes the shells even refuse to hit the water, just vanishing into thin air because of its horrible characteristics. 

Sometimes I just want to scream at my screen because of this awfully constructed pile of garbage. Why is is ship still in the game? why not replace it with Vanguard at tier 8?

Some of its few advantages was that low citadel, off balanced to being a damage spunge with spunge armour.

Not anymore.

 

Wargaming, please, please fix this awful ship!

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24 minutes ago, Erik_Aukan said:

firing a full broadside against a straightgoing, reversing  cruiser at 12kms, it manages to hit with mid section with only 1 of the 9 shells for a crappy damage without a fire!!!

Load AP. Monarch isn't for HE spam. Monarch can fire HE at bow-in BBs and 27 mm plating cruisers, but for the most part should use AP.

 

It isn't terribly accurate, but it still beats the Germans, Richelieu and Roma. And compared to all other T8 BBs, it has the best reload and thus dpm. Combined with good concealment, Monarch is a solid mid-range BB.

30 minutes ago, Erik_Aukan said:

It has all the bad stats. Low speed (relatively to tier 8)

28 knots is low end, but not incredibly low. USN has that too. Vladivostok is 29 knots. Lenin is 28.5 knots. Compared to what exists on other tiers like 21 knot Colorado vs 32 knot Gneisenau, this is nothing.

33 minutes ago, Erik_Aukan said:

Some of its few advantages was that low citadel, off balanced to being a damage spunge with spunge armour.

Not anymore.

Low citadel got replaced by getting an improved repair party. Monarch might no longer be able to broadside to use all its guns in every situation (at least vs BBs, against cruisers and DDs you still can), but it has the best repair qualities at T8 with 0.6% repaired per second, 60s repair CD and 75% of pen damage repairable. As long as you don't get focused down, eat a bunch of torps or cits, Monarch is pretty hard to kill, also because of the good concealment.

 

Admittedly, the ship needs more skill now.

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Like what Cagliostro said, Monarch is not a HE spammer. Whether by design or unintentionally, Monarch is there in the british BB tech tree to remind you that AP shells exist.

 

I played the Monarch as a flanking stealth assasin. One thing you forgot is that it has a pretty decent camo rating for a BB. I find a nice broadside or target, fire off an AP salvo, go back undetected, repostion and then fire again. Rinse and repeat. Worked fairly well for me I'll say, considering my Monarch stats. 

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It's been awhile since I played Monarch, but I will not forget this ship. And not in a good way too...

It's a lot more tanky and stealthy than the KGV but for me it was a pain to play this ship. HE shells are not the typical RN nukes, but it has AP as well - no worries, I thought. WRONG! The AP shells tend to either overpen or shatter vs most targets. 

Overall the ship is like a ninja - really hard to spot for a BB, good armor, average speed and good maneuverability. The issue I had with it was that I can easily surprise a broadside cruiser with my AP, only to see a few overpens and the eventual shatter/bounce. There were times I was very close to breaking my keyboard. I don't know about the raised citadel and the heal improvements - I was never one to show too much broadside and I suspect for me the gameplay would still be the same.

 

Lion and the Conqueror are more similar to KGV - fragile but deadly. Also they have the uber-heal/ship printer. They are the reasons to grind through the Monarch, nothing else (at least for me).

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I recently got this ships, and I thought it was trash too... Until I read about using AP. I now almost exclusively fire AP except against high tier/angled bbs. Use the great stealth to get in close and get to 10-15km (using island cover is a great way to do this), fire AP at broadsiding cruisers/battleships, and disengage if you are focused.

 

It's workable. Looking forward to the Lion though.

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Monarch can't play as a flanking stealth assassin.

It can't play as an AP BB even if its shitty fuse worked.

 

Because it can't hit anything even at point blank range when you've 'stealthily' crept up.

 

Oh and now it also has a big vulnerable citadel just to make it shitter.

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31 minutes ago, DoktorvonWer said:

Monarch can't play as a flanking stealth assassin.

It can't play as an AP BB even if its shitty fuse worked.

 

Because it can't hit anything even at point blank range when you've 'stealthily' crept up.

 

Oh and now it also has a big vulnerable citadel just to make it shitter.

Sure...

 

Not cherry-picked, just a game I queued up for to respond to this post and guess what. Monarch did not disappoint.

Spoiler

shot-19_10.05_21_48.28-0321.thumb.jpg.b8a80ce62a02841f586fb828c0d38fa3.jpg

shot-19_10.05_21_48.31-0199.thumb.jpg.ae9209bf92011b3504da4f031cae4e51.jpg

shot-19_10.05_21_48.35-0953.thumb.jpg.7e5bae1a21a6bd59f348c678b9da7654.jpg

AP only, dreadnought, facing off vs a Tirpitz, Nagato and Warspite. 1.9 million potential.

 

Tbf though, I hardly played around with the concealment. Only felt the need to go dark once for a few seconds, because most of the time the new repair party was sufficient survivability.

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If it's british and has a 15", you best reach for your AP. If it carries literally any other calibre, feel free to spam HE like a moron.

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52 minutes ago, piritskenyer said:

If it's british and has a 15", you best reach for your AP. If it carries literally any other calibre, feel free to spam HE like a moron.

18 inch goes AP as well. And 6 inch only gets AP...

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15 minutes ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

18 inch goes AP as well. And 6 inch only gets AP...

 

I wasn't sure about the 18" and...

I have a Perth and a Belfast, I have no idea what you are talking about :cap_book:

(I know what you mean ofcourse :cap_haloween:)

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On 10/5/2019 at 8:57 PM, Cagliostro_chan said:

AP only, dreadnought, facing off vs a Tirpitz, Nagato and Warspite. 1.9 million potential.

Every ship can do great games, once in a while. Doenst make it a good ship. Never hated a ship as much i hated the Monarch. Ok speed and AA, low manuverability and the worse accuracy of any tier 8 BB.

 

On 9/15/2019 at 6:11 PM, Cagliostro_chan said:

It isn't terribly accurate, but it still beats the Germans, Richelieu and Roma.

No idea about the Roma but Bismarck, and especially Richelieu are much more acurate. No comparation. I had the 3 at the same time. The only time i lost patience with a ship and used free Ex to get rid of him.

I respect players that like it but i have no good thing to say about it.

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2 hours ago, mirage77 said:

Every ship can do great games, once in a while. Doenst make it a good ship. Never hated a ship as much i hated the Monarch. Ok speed and AA, low manuverability and the worse accuracy of any tier 8 BB.

That worst accuracy isn't supported by anything, you know.

 

Meanwhile:

https://proships.ru/stat/ru/ships/3232,4013/

https://proships.ru/stat/ru/ships/3232,3314/

 

As you'd expect from same sigma, but superior dispersion formula.

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I never had any problems with Monarch accuracy.

 

And after hating KGV because AP was rubbish even on broadside targets, it was nice to see AP shells actually doing damage instead of shattering or bouncing on any BB armour (slightly angled or not).

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On 10/13/2019 at 12:44 AM, Cagliostro_chan said:

That worst accuracy isn't supported by anything, you know.

 

Meanwhile:

https://proships.ru/stat/ru/ships/3232,4013/

https://proships.ru/stat/ru/ships/3232,3314/

 

As you'd expect from same sigma, but superior dispersion formula.

I cant see anything in your examples about accuracy. I realy cant, can you point them to me?

 

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58 minutes ago, mirage77 said:

I cant see anything in your examples about accuracy. I realy cant, can you point them to me?

 

second graph is titled "accuracy"

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still doesn't make it a good ship, i'd still argue that literally every BB at the same tier is better over all.

Monarch didn't deserve is nerfs

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On 11/6/2019 at 1:10 AM, JarrusJenkins said:

Monarch didn't deserve is nerfs

Which nerfs ?

 

Only played her before the citadel change and found her aggressively mediocre in a bad way. Workable but nothing really stood out as a strength
(her guns and squishyness made me use her concealment more as a defensive than an offensive tool, as those juicy citadel-salvos rarely happened even when i got the jump on ppl)

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On 11/6/2019 at 1:10 AM, JarrusJenkins said:

still doesn't make it a good ship, i'd still argue that literally every BB at the same tier is better over all.

Monarch didn't deserve is nerfs

"nerfs"...

 

Literally the sole negative aspect of the new British citadel to me is how hard the Yamato craps on them, but apart from that, thanks for the improved repair party WG. 

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My personal experience with Monarch was that while she wasn't quite as bad as everyone says it is, it just doesn't really excel at anything. As such I found her to be a mediocre ship, one unlikely I will play again having grinded through it. It's the Lion I actually hated. Not sure if it was just me but the guns simply refused to cooperate, dispersion wise. Had no trouble before or after it, on Conq, but the Lion experience was just miserable for me.

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On 10/7/2019 at 8:39 PM, piritskenyer said:

If it's british and has a 15", you best reach for your AP. If it carries literally any other calibre, feel free to spam HE like a moron.

Nelson 16-inch short-fuze AP is surprisingly effective too.

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1 hour ago, TohtoriP said:

Nelson 16-inch short-fuze AP is surprisingly effective too.

Oh yeah, true. I rmbr f:etc_swear:ing another Nelson in the ar£e with AP once. 3 citadels later, he was not happy. 

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15 hours ago, Sleepy_Bunny said:

"nerfs"...

 

Literally the sole negative aspect of the new British citadel to me is how hard the Yamato craps on them, but apart from that, thanks for the improved repair party WG. 

Doesn't make up for the crap armour and the lack of HP, at least the Vanguard gets a better HP as compensation. It eats pen damage all over except if someone is daft enough to aim at the angled belt.

Everyone love to hate the Brits even though their heavy HE shells are a great counter to the Russians adamantium armoured ships.

 

and its easy to hit the citadel in just about every other battleship in the game, Richelieu, Jean Bart, and pretty much everything else with a 16inch gun loves munching on those juicy Monarchs, never mind the crap torp protection which is mostly unhealable BTW... heal doesn't make up for that.

and people wonder why they sit at the back with the HE loaded... I seriously don't blame them, absolutely no benefit to pushing in.

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10 hours ago, JarrusJenkins said:

Doesn't make up for the crap armour and the lack of HP

While total hp pool is not great, effective hp pool considering repairs is nothing to scoff at.

10 hours ago, JarrusJenkins said:

at least the Vanguard gets a better HP as compensation.

And a worse repair party, as well as worse concealment.

10 hours ago, JarrusJenkins said:

It eats pen damage all over except if someone is daft enough to aim at the angled belt.

Angled 32 mm does not get overmatched by anything but 46 cm guns. And the all-or-nothing armour was already in place before, the citadel change did nothing to change that and indeed, the citadel change only matters vs Yamato/Musashi here, because they are the sole ships that can hit the cit without first having to pen the massive belt.

10 hours ago, JarrusJenkins said:

Everyone love to hate the Brits even though their heavy HE shells are a great counter to the Russians adamantium armoured ships.

Indeed. So, why you hate the British too?

10 hours ago, JarrusJenkins said:

and its easy to hit the citadel in just about every other battleship in the game, Richelieu, Jean Bart, and pretty much everything else with a 16inch gun loves munching on those juicy Monarchs

Angled 32 mm does not get overmatched by anything but 46 cm guns. If you get hit for damage by a battleship with smaller caliber guns you would have eaten that damage also in something like NC or Richelieu. If you are angled, you also cannot just lolcitadel Monarch, as you either bounce off the bow, pen the superstructure or you have to get enough side to pen 381 mm of belt (the best at T8, btw). And there is no part of the citadel not covered by belt.

10 hours ago, JarrusJenkins said:

never mind the crap torp protection which is mostly unhealable BTW... heal doesn't make up for that.

It pays off in any BB to learn how torpedo ships work and to keep an eye out for potential torpedo threads and signs that may indicate that there might be torpedo ships around. Frankly, torp protection is one of the first things I'd be willing to sacrifice for performance in more important areas, because eating torps in the first place is typically a misplay, unless it's air-dropped ordnance.

10 hours ago, JarrusJenkins said:

and people wonder why they sit at the back with the HE loaded... I seriously don't blame them, absolutely no benefit to pushing in.

And thus people hate Monarch, because they don't realise what they could do with this ship. It's great when people think that Bismarck or Richelieu spamming HE is silly and shoot AP at all ranges, but when it's Monarch, where the biggest difference really is just short-fuze for less overpens (and a few fewer cits on a few selected ships), they need to load HE, because British.

 

And there is a benefit to playing around your concealment range. It's called "hitting stuff more reliably". Also, fun fact, if you don't fight BBs with slow shells like USN or RN at range, the shells don't arc enough to get easy superstructure full pens, the biggest reason why people think the armour sucks too much, despite these ships doing that to basically any BB except maybe the Soviets. But even armoured behemoths like Kurfürst will regularly eat 20k salvos from Montana or Thunderer at range, courtesy of slow shells and great range.

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On ‎11‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 10:11 AM, Sleepy_Bunny said:

While total hp pool is not great, effective hp pool considering repairs is nothing to scoff at.

And a worse repair party, as well as worse concealment.

OK, 

the vanguard I personally regard as a much better overall tier 8 ship from the brits, the guns are more accurate, it has a better health pool and the rudder shift is rather nice the last game I had in it I reckon went well even though there were tier 10's in it, I managed to avoid a hale of in coming Smolensk HE shells quite easily and I managed to stick it to a Yamato quite reliably with AP and HE shells, only to be RNG's by a Minotaur later when I caught him broadside on and got 4 overpens and I was on low heath and my heal was on cooldown, he smoked up and then I promptly had a death of a thousand cuts...

Sure it does have worse concealment and heal but I feel as though I can last much longer to actually make a contribution to a victory and I would consider 12.4 KM concealment still quite good. The gun angles are garbage but your excellent rudder shift allows you to fire a full broadside and then angle back for the incoming fire between reloads (you just have to make sure you don't get greedy else it can quite easily be the end of you)

On ‎11‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 10:11 AM, Sleepy_Bunny said:

Angled 32 mm does not get overmatched by anything but 46 cm guns. If you get hit for damage by a battleship with smaller caliber guns you would have eaten that damage also in something like NC or Richelieu. If you are angled, you also cannot just lolcitadel Monarch, as you either bounce off the bow, pen the superstructure or you have to get enough side to pen 381 mm of belt (the best at T8, btw). And there is no part of the citadel not covered by belt.

I was talking "normal" AP pen damage, you get a lot of that especially through the top deck layer while yes the overmatching only happens with the Yamashai 32mm can get normal pens on it no problem, it just seems that even when angled or bow in that you still receive a lot of normal pen damage and I have gotten citadelled by a Montana when angled at 12km, and that the point i'm making, while yes the heal is nice, it really doesn't help with a decent AP alpha salvo if you catch my drift a few 10k salvos in you while your heal is on cool down and you're taking a one way ticket to the bottom of the drink. I really don't feel that the concealment is all that useful in this since there are plenty of good DD and CV players to spot you for the rest of the team and you haven't got the speed or the manuverability to disengage which I would think that's how its ment to be played (sneak up, drop lots of lead in the un suspecting target and then disengage to heal up and repeat) I feel as though if you're spotted in one of these that people recognise you're a really easy target to dispatch since you can't take the sustained fire very well at all.

Getting into a favourable position take way too long in this for you to actually make a contribution to the game. I can't speak for the NC since I haven't played it but when I was playing the Richelieu, I seemed to be able to survive a lot longer even though the armour scheme is also 32mm everywhere, but the turtle back certainly helped (but obviously not fool proof) and you can just turn around and blow the engine boost to disengage..

 

On ‎11‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 10:11 AM, Sleepy_Bunny said:

Indeed. So, why you hate the British too?

It just seems everyone complains about the battleships being OP and yet now theyre much easier to deal with everyone still thinks theyre overpowered even though do to have some easy to exploit weaknesses....you can't possibly win. seems as though theyre just a joke which is rather disheartening really since the Royal Navy is a big part of British heritage and I hate that. So really I don't hate them but I hate the fact theyre getting nerfed and some of it I feel is unjustified making me really not want to play them, I really do have better games in the French ships. KGV for example, youre pretty much left to throw HE at everything since those guns are hard pressed to AP pen anything at range. I seem to be able to do better AP damage in my Scharhorst and if you talk overmatching, it really does get over matched on all sides by nearly all it's peers without being able to do the same in return, sure the Lyon has small calibre guns for its tier as well (smaller in fact I believe) but 16 shells in one go with it's higher DPM and better armour.

as for the monarch, sure the 32mm plate is a great upgrade but the health pool really sucks at this tier where as the KGV has a decent HP pool but I went toe to toe with a Colorado and that can just click anywhere on the KGV and big damage which is ironic since the KGV class battleship was one of the most heavily armoured warships in world war 2 only 2nd to the Yamato class. 

You see at least with the Nelson you get the not so good concealment and massive citadel, but it's got the mega heal and really nice guns and it's quite easy to angle (sort of), makes its nice to play (and maybe a touch OP, I don't know but it's a nice counter to the Sinop).

Still I do wish the brits were more like Warspite, Nelson, Vanguard and Thunderer overall.

On ‎11‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 10:11 AM, Sleepy_Bunny said:

It pays off in any BB to learn how torpedo ships work and to keep an eye out for potential torpedo threads and signs that may indicate that there might be torpedo ships around. Frankly, torp protection is one of the first things I'd be willing to sacrifice for performance in more important areas, because eating torps in the first place is typically a misplay, unless it's air-dropped ordnance.

I have gotten a lot better at this, recognising where the torps will be coming from etc, I've spent a lot of time doing this since I was totally crap before. So yeah I'd agree with you there, as for trading in torp protection for other things? I'd have to disagree on the basis that it's inevitable that you will eat some at some point, especially if you're being harassed by a DD and if you're trying to rush down an annoying cruiser that smoked up... 

example I ran down a Minotaur in my Conqueror that was rather annoying, smoked up and just farming damage on a cap and making the team run and hide..... so I took it upon myself to do something about this, firing AP into the smoke yielded less than stellar results (no spotter plan on a conq to get a better view of where the shells are coming from but I still realise its still doable but just less so) so I snuck around the island using my consealment, then I got hydro'd so he knew I was coming, I was already too far committed to turn away (really hard to do in a BB) so I went ahead, 4 torps ripple fired straight into my bow and I was down to 3/4 health, and no matter what you say that's a massive chunk on a conq and you really can't use a heal to deal with it...

the 2nd set missed because for some reason he shot them right off my starboard bow (I think his hydro was off then but it was still obvious where I was) finally 2km ish away broadside on and I deleted him. but that amount of damage really made my play passive after that... sure you could reasonably argue that it was probably kind of idiotic to chase anything down in smoke in a battleship but it needed to be down since he was holding down the ships at the cap and there was no DD available to drop torps in and the other cruisers were all running scared so I took the risk (like we are now being ridiculed for not doing) but the likes of the GK, Kremlin or even Yamato would have walked away in a better state after said confrontation. Sure I used an example of the Conqueror against a Minotaur but what would have happened if it I was in a Monarch and I went to sort an Edinburgh, I'd be dead....

Pushing in is needed in the Monarch to making the most of your guns and concealment but its really easy to punish in this current meta. Sure many BB's have the same torp resistance as a Monarch so it isn't exactly "hard done by" compared to it's peers, Bismarck actually has worse torp protection but i'd argue that it's secondaries, hydro make it a less inviting target to DD's and Cruisers torps than a Monarch which doesn't have those tools to deal with them and significantly less HP.

On ‎11‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 10:11 AM, Sleepy_Bunny said:

And thus people hate Monarch, because they don't realise what they could do with this ship. It's great when people think that Bismarck or Richelieu spamming HE is silly and shoot AP at all ranges, but when it's Monarch, where the biggest difference really is just short-fuze for less overpens (and a few fewer cits on a few selected ships), they need to load HE, because British.

I guess its because of the HE alpha and it's somewhat of an easy mode kind of thing, and I suppose that realistically that it's probably worth taking the shot at range with an AP shell in the Bismarck or the Richelieu because there's more damage potential than firing HE (even though with HE if its a hit it's guaranteed to do damage and possibly set a fire and damage is damage I guess).

But I would agree though in the sense that for it's gun size that Monarch does have the heaviest broadside for AP and HE of anything else at the same tier (AP and HE shell Alpha is best for it's calibre) so I do use AP when close and they've actually quite high velocity compared to (almost) everything else the Brits have but they don't have the AP pen of the Bismarck (probably because of the short fuse)

Hell at range people don't realise that the AP in Conq acutally has better pen the the Montana.... I looked it up the other day and I was shocked, but when you get closer Monty does beat Conq.

 

On ‎11‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 10:11 AM, Sleepy_Bunny said:

And there is a benefit to playing around your concealment range. It's called "hitting stuff more reliably". Also, fun fact, if you don't fight BBs with slow shells like USN or RN at range, the shells don't arc enough to get easy superstructure full pens, the biggest reason why people think the armour sucks too much, despite these ships doing that to basically any BB except maybe the Soviets. But even armoured behemoths like Kurfürst will regularly eat 20k salvos from Montana or Thunderer at range, courtesy of slow shells and great range.

Hmm, I still feel like up close you're still eating a lot of damage from the like of US battleships so I disagree there the likes of the NC and Amagi will still punish you if they so wish and the Massa also with its secondary's setting you on fire at the same time.

and as for the GK eating 20k pens at range.... that is absolutely true, done in in my Conq with AP.

 

In conclusion I still feel like the Monarchs strengths aren't really that exploitable in this current meta, theres a reason that people still use nearly everything else instead (except Roma maybe but that has much of the same problems as the Monarch) and it was reflected back during ranked when you saw a lot of North Carolinas, Amagis, Massachusetts, Vladivostoks, Bismarcks.

Bismarcks hydro and secondaires would put the wind up DD's also decent anti air.

Amagi and NC have nice accurate, hard hitting and consistent guns with the Amagi having good concealment and the NC having really strong anti air.

Massa has great secondaries and turning radius to make it manuverable also with a no fly zone over head

Vladivostok has accurate guns, anti air and masses of armour.

 

I shall be playing the Monarch more often to try and see if I can actually make use of its strengths effectively... I have recently had a couple of decent game in it but its really soooo easy to counter its unreal, if you get spotted while trying to flank the enemy then you're dead....

But still I shall give it a proper go and report back.

It would actually be nice to have the other ships I mentioned to compare (I only have Bismarck but that can also be frustrating to play at times) and I would also like to know what the player stats on the tier 8 bbs are (like win averages, average frags etc) to see where the Monarch sits on there.

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