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Floofz

Make citadels un-overpennable

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12 minutes ago, Gnomus said:

It would not make cruiser play much more restricted. Even now cruiser can get oneshot, if battleship hits when cruiser is in 60-80 degree angle (so shells get armed and do not exit before exploding). Then suddenly when cruiser is full broadside it becomes almost invulnerable because of overpen mechanism, but become extremely vulnerable once again when exiting full broadside and is in suitable angle.

 

Depends, if there are more people looking funny at you at the same time. Yes, those close to you will overpen, but those at distance will get plunging fire which means trajectory inside ship is longer allowing shell to arm. If you give BB's no more overpens on citadels at close range, you need to plan even longer ahead ( making the game more static as less people will feel comfortable the angle they are keeping on the minimap is advantageus for them ( since eventually, you will run into either the map border or some island, and you will have to turn. So if this turning is more dangerous, I will play more passive and not commit as early ( or play longer range so I can get into concealment at will ). Both of these things are not I think what the game needs.

 

12 minutes ago, Gnomus said:

Change would remove one very counter intuitive and unrealistic aspect. Balancing this with heal (may be lesser than on BB's, or less uses) would be great. Currently low/mid tier cruisers suffer quite a lot because they have no heal. While BB's (and few cruisers with heal) can let fires and flooding do their trick and then just heal it all most cruisers lose hitpoints they can't recover.

 

Above statement of mine only holds up if not countered by something like this yes. If I take more dmg when turning ( which eventually you will have to do, hopefully while in concealment ) I would like to be able to feel it's something I can sustain at least once without limiting my participation in the rest of battle. 

 

Still I expect that we'll see more cruiser players play even more passive. 

 

6 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

Not THAT semi-AP the normal SAP such as some brit bbs have, its just an AP shell with short fuse, does not have any increased damage (might even reduce it) and/or max 10% on dds it can be a little lighter and faster in return

 

Ahh yeah if you look it's not even just Brits I think I seen SAP mentioned in the shell description of other nations. It get's a bit confusing when terms are used in multiple places denoting very much different in game characteristics. 

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4 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

Ahh yeah if you look it's not even just Brits I think I seen SAP mentioned in the shell description of other nations. It get's a bit confusing when terms are used in multiple places denoting very much different in game characteristics. 

Russian DDs use "SAP" ammo by name.

 

8 minutes ago, creamgravy said:

You can do the same trick in BBs too.

 

I remember when New Orleans AP would get nothing but overpens agasint a broadside Colorado at close range.

All or nothing armor scheme OP, nerf:Smile_trollface:

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5 minutes ago, Gnomus said:

 

 

 

It doesn't make sense in either.

 

In game play point of view it is counter intuitive gimmick. Sometimes it can be used to trick enemies, but mostly it is just getting lucky (because when hit at proper angle those same shell will citadel cruiser) when you have fully exposed yourself.

 

In realism point of view it is even worse. Game model only have armor and hull structures simulated. All interior spaces are empty. This means that shell arming and slowing down happens only at armor plates. Citadel part of ships are full of heavy machinery. Steam engines, gear systems, ammunition storages, turret mechanism etc. Those should have great influence on shell arming, slowing down and exploding, instead of empty space they are now.

 

It would be totally realistic to have shell going through all those things have greater influence than going through actual "empty spaces" like mess halls. There is reason citadels and citadel hits are in the game. Getting hit in those critical parts of ships is deadly.

Ofcourse it is about being lucky/unlucky a lot of times. It's more useful to discuss and blame RNG than it is to discuss big caliber shells not being stopped by light armor if you a going to make a point about luck. I mean, let's discuss detonation too then, while we are at it. And dispersion of shells. If we aren't discussing luck and what it can do in this game, but shell size and armor thickness, the mechanic also dictates that getting overmatched from the front by shells that normally would overpen in the side, they will stick in the ship instead. So yes, it's a part luck that plays in the game, but that is part of the overall game. 

 

As for the realistic part I meant that bigger shells irl also bore through light plating and smaller shells don't bore through heavy plating. Wasn't talking about the inside of real ships vs these virtual almost empty hulls. Still, big enough battleship shells could still bore itself through the hull of a light cruiser and overpen it irl. Yamato shells were made to stick in Iowa, for instance. I think that with a bit of luck, they's pierce right through Belfast without sticking in the ship, depending on lots of factors.

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1 hour ago, creamgravy said:

You can do the same trick in BBs too.

 

I remember when New Orleans AP would get nothing but overpens agasint a broadside Colorado at close range.

Equally ridiculous. It's the mechanic that needs an overlook.

 

 

I suspect WG wants to keep it the way it is because increasing consistency of AP at close-range broadside targets would increase the disparity between the good and the bad players. Total noobs don't get blapped as often when making mistakes due to safety thresholds and RNG. Just the way the community wants it... :cap_tea:

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4 hours ago, Panocek said:

BBs already can blap DDs with overpens alone. Making them straight up better than HE is not an answer...

DD's have no citadel, so all over-penetrations would deliver same damage. This is mostly about broadsiding cruisers at close to medium range, depending on shell size. Situations where you aim carefully yet get no reward. But all in all, I don't personally think this is a big thing either way. 

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Just FYI you have a perfect example of what I was talking about in flambass latest video. How can you think that is okay?

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12 minutes ago, Floofz said:

Just FYI you have a perfect example of what I was talking about in flambass latest video. How can you think that is okay?

 

:cap_old:

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11 hours ago, Floofz said:

 

Did you even understand the topic? I didnt say waterline hits should always be a citadel. I said a hit to the citadel shouldnt overpen.

 

1. Do you understand how rediculous a suggestion you are making with regards to game balance? (citadel damage would need to be nerfed massively to compensate)

2. How, pray tell, would you be able tell which waterline this should be citadels (you just finished argueing those broadside Emils etc should have taken citadels from your waterline hits)

3. Its not like any of those cruisers you mention can actually 1v1 a properly handled BB (Hurt it, yes - kill it, no) so it's not as if the BBs in question are in need of a buff.

4. It would dumb down the game (knowing which cruisers are so slim you are better off sailing around broadside is also skill)

5. Afaik it's not even realistic, since those AP shells dont arm in time to explode inside the cruisers in question.

 

Just a big no-no from here.:Smile_coin:

 

Also as a footnote: Sometime HE will citadel those cruisers when AP cannot, because the armor is so flimsy :cap_haloween:

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4 hours ago, mtm78 said:

Ahh this one. Not everything is about just the high tier. 

Low Tier are completly different, discussing that in case of overpenetraing makes not sense, because it would be broken. Some crusiers can be citadelled with HE. Thus I would go with HE in most cases

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1 minute ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

 

1. Do you understand how rediculous a suggestion you are making with regards to game balance? (citadel damage would need to be nerfed massively to compensate)

2. How, pray tell, would you be able tell which waterline this should be citadels (you just finished argueing those broadside Emils etc should have taken citadels from your waterline hits)

3. Its not like any of those cruisers you mention can actually 1v1 a properly handled BB (Hurt it, yes - kill it, no) so it's not as if the BBs in question are in need of a buff.

4. It would dumb down the game (knowing which cruisers are so slim you are better off sailing around broadside is also skill)

5. Afaik it's not even realistic, since those AP shells dont arm in time to explode inside the cruisers in question.

 

Just a big no-no from here.:Smile_coin:

 

Yea you still havent understood the topic. Were not talking about hitting the citadel or not. Were talking about overpenning the citadel.

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11 minutes ago, Floofz said:

Yea you still havent understood the topic. Were not talking about hitting the citadel or not. Were talking about overpenning the citadel.

I understand it just fine. What you dont seem to understand is how your suggestion completely breaks balance.

Also see, points 3-5 above and see below.

8 hours ago, FukushuNL said:

What's bad gameplay? To turn your weakness into your strength? Or to make it so that showing broadside = a 100% kill move? Why should something that is super effective against one ship be super effective against another ship? What's that for BS? Bullits have a pen rating and armor has a resistance rating. That's just game mechanics. Using small shells against thick armor will not make you penetrate the armor, making the shell explode outside the ship. The other extreme is using heavy shells against light armor, which doesn't stop the shell at all. That gives this game depth: small guns against big ships isn't effective, but if you use too big a shell for too small a ship, it woun't be effective either. 

 

This mechanic isn't even not ridiculous, it makes perfect sense from both a realism standpoints as well as a gameplay point of view.

This is what you object to, isnt it?

 

6 hours ago, asalonen said:

If the shell has enough penetration it should be able to go "through and through". Just because it hits a citadel I don't think it should magically stop, even if it's just a game.

 

As said in one of the earlier messages, there's a completely separate issue of what the damage should be. What we currently have for AP shells is:

  • Ricochet: 0 %
  • Penetration: 33 % (except 280 mm and above on destroyers other than Khabarovsk and Harugumo: 10 %)
  • Penetration to citadel: 100 %
  • Over-penetration: 10 %

So when you fire close enough to over-penetrate, good aim is no longer rewarded. I completely agree that this is somewhat dumb. Why not have over-penetration of citadel to have higher damage, like 20 or 33 % of the shell value? In real life it would matter very much where exactly you get a half-a-meter hole through the ship...

Also, it wouldn't affect balance all that much, but would just fix what can feel like abuse of mechanics?

 

If you want to change the mechanic, some rebalancing of the damage of citadel hits would be needed.

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15 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Low Tier are completly different, discussing that in case of overpenetraing makes not sense, because it would be broken. Some crusiers can be citadelled with HE. Thus I would go with HE in most cases

 

OP discusses a Sinop, it can meet tier 5's. Are you sure you didn't make a left turn where you should have gone right? 

 

Also don't trigger me with HE battleship talk, I'm running low on caffeine :Smile_ohmy:

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15 hours ago, ForlornSailor said:

I can see both your points @thiextar and @Floofz and I kinda agree with both sides. What bothers me, is, that heavy cruisers in those situations get punished harder than light cruisers - for having the better armor.

 

Another thing, that should be taken into concideration: it teaches players bad habbits. If you get away showing broadside all the time in your Atlanta (f.e), then you go and play a Buffalo... you will think "what the f is going on?" Only a small percentage of the playerbase is skilled enough to activly make use of this mechanic. The rest makes use of it unconsciously. And if they look at the armor models in game, they might think, they will even be better of in their heavy cruiser compare to light cruisers, because the armor is "better".

 

To kinda make both sides happy, the game needs to be reworked I guess. Light cruisers would need smaller citas, which then in return cant be overpenetrated.

 

 

What happens, when BBs get slightly better accuracy and penetration can be witnesses in this seasons clanwars aka "season 6: make Cruisers obsolete". This is a two-sided sword and we need to be careful, what we ask for.

The best reply of the thread. Very little to add. I can understand why they buffed DDs and took away the pens from BBs, but Light Cruisers are close range broadsiding shouldn't be a thing. As you say, it is a bad habit, you should get obliterated for bad gameplay, instead you get the benefit for the shortcomings of the game.

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The whole gameplay is pretty messy these days at least in T10.

 

- Defenders have huge advantage. Game is about smoke/island and long range camping. 

- Attacking is not rewarded or encouraged. Games are decided 90% by kills and damage than by anything else.

- BBs are effective at long range. Go closer and your dispersion is off the walls and its in RNG gods hands what happens with your salvoes. 

- Go closer and raindow of HE fire rains down your neck by smolenks, yoshinos, woosters, desmos, hindes and conquerors.

- As a BB you no longer fear the ships that have the biggest guns but those that have high rate of HE fire.

- So stay at long range and camp. This is where you survive and your guns are accurate. That is what 95% of BB players do. There hardly is any incentive to attack.

- To nerf BBs at close range they have made this new RNGness where crusiers can sail broadside and not get punished.

- As a heavy cruiser you mostly tank for your own BBs and burn enemy BBs. 

 

This is what the game is. Camp, camp and camp more. It is unicum players that mostly break through flanks and advance while less experience players still have no idea what is even going on.

Citadel damage is not a good thing in the end. It has helped to make the game more about camping. 

Instead of hit points the ships should be more focused in ships combat capability. If you hit someone in the citadel area and instead of losing 50-100% of your HP you lose 20-30% of your horse power and main gun reload goes down for a period of time.

Losing combat capability happened so many times in WW2 than citadel shots. Only Hood got magazined detonated while other BBs lost radars, rudders, guns malfunctioned, engines lost speed and electricity shorted.

Combat capability was lost way before ships sunk or exploded.

 

These days WG is trying to add all kinds of gimmicks to fix problems and keep balance and different classes attractive. As a result current meta supports camping heavily for all classes.

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Similar thing happened to me recently, I was in a bismarck, and a random buffalo fully perfectly broadsided less than 6 km from me, fired full broadside salvo into him, nothing but overpens, couple of thousand dmg while he was supposed to get deleted, annihilated out of the map....haven't played since, got me so pissed at the game I've barely even touched the game since....

I don't start a thread about it on the forum though...

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On 9/14/2019 at 9:44 PM, Floofz said:

Bad play should be punished. If I go full broadside in a BB to another BB I will die, so why shouldnt cruisers? Its even a worse play to get that close to a BB in a CA/CL. Its ridicolous that less armor= more armor.

Is it really bad play though? I have a Hindenburg and there's a Kremlin 4 km away from me behind an island and I have around 30k health. That abomination can overmatch me from any angle. I do know however that if I come out broadside, her absurd gun velocity will result in overpens and I can torpedo her for a good chunk of damage. The bad play in that circumstance would to have presented my nose and allowed me to take full penetration damage. A good play in one ship fighting against another will invariably change depending on the ship.

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40 minutes ago, dasCKD said:

Is it really bad play though? I have a Hindenburg and there's a Kremlin 4 km away from me behind an island and I have around 30k health. That abomination can overmatch me from any angle. I do know however that if I come out broadside, her absurd gun velocity will result in overpens and I can torpedo her for a good chunk of damage. The bad play in that circumstance would to have presented my nose and allowed me to take full penetration damage. A good play in one ship fighting against another will invariably change depending on the ship.

 

Adding to that, you know, for a BB to be somewhere with a broadside cruiser at close range, who's fault is that? Did the cruiser have omni directional trusters and actually approached sideways so he could keep giving flat broadside the entire time?

 

Isn't some part of this just the planning you need to do ahead, and your situational awareness. I mean I hate it when I get overpens on a cruiser I thought who would take massive damage, but often later on it's like -> he was baiting me with his broadside and I fell for it, if I had hold my shot he eventually had to make a turn giving my shells more time to arm. 

 

2 hours ago, Rautainen_Biisoni said:

Only Hood got magazined detonated while other BBs lost radars, rudders, guns malfunctioned, engines lost speed and electricity shorted.

Combat capability was lost way before ships sunk or exploded.

 

Hood wasn't the only one for which this didn't hold up ;) Overall you're right ofc, just wanted to show off this footage as it's one of the best films showing what happens in a catastrophic magazine explosion :Smile_hiding:

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Oh look, a babby crying about being outplayed. 

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Surprised an edin once with my musashi around 5-6km

full broadside..

9 hits..

9 overpens..

 

he survived..  torped me..

I detonated..

then he died laughing..

 

Totally legit! 10/10

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52 minutes ago, Excavatus said:

Surprised an edin once with my musashi around 5-6km

full broadside..

9 hits..

9 overpens..

 

he survived..  torped me..

I detonated..

then he died laughing..

 

Totally legit! 10/10

Sounds more like the Edin surprised you :Smile_trollface:

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3 hours ago, mtm78 said:

Hood wasn't the only one for which this didn't hold up ;) Overall you're right ofc, just wanted to show off this footage as it's one of the best films showing what happens in a catastrophic magazine explosion :Smile_hiding:

 

Was that the boilers letting go or the magazine though?  Hood's boilers also blew at the end (which is why one of the few survivors actually survived! [air bubble from the explosion kept the chap alive])

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16 minutes ago, MyopicHedgehog said:

Was that the boilers letting go or the magazine though?  Hood's boilers also blew at the end (which is why one of the few survivors actually survived! [air bubble from the explosion kept the chap alive])

 

Every source I read mentions magazine detonation. This video is also much more impressive in soundstage, it's mainly the sound which gives the impression that the detonation wasn't that severe. 

*Also note, every time a BB asks for 'historical accuracy' and 'my AP should blast enormous holes in DD's rendering them combat ineffective immediately' they should be shown this and ask them if they think this is what three torpedo's should do to a battleship :Smile_trollface: 4m from impact, I am actually curious what the damage was from the torpedo attack alone but I don't think there is a reconstruction like what they did for some other more famous ships. Mostly because I understand the list due to substantial flooding ( assuming three torpedoes made big enough holes to render compartments useless ) but a list shouldn't cause a magazine detonation ( unless it was a shock which set off the initial ammunition? ), and I have a hard time seeing torpedo hits causing internal fires ( unless breaking something like a fuel oil line near electrical sparks? ). 

 

 

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27 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

 

[...]

 

*Also note, every time a BB asks for 'historical accuracy' and 'my AP should blast enormous holes in DD's rendering them combat ineffective immediately' they should be shown this 

[...]

 

 

 

Well, we could also just tell them, you know, to sod off. The battle off Samar demonstrated pretty clearly that BB (and CA for that matter) AP does exactly jack and sh1t to a DD because it just goes straight through. The AP fired by the japanese simply did not arm, and punched calibre-sized holes with no further damage into the upperworks of the ships. When the Japanese realised they were facing DD's and DE's and switched to HE, carnage ensued.

 

So no, firing AP at DD's is not historically a good idea as such.  

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3 minutes ago, piritskenyer said:

Well, we could also just tell them, you know, to sod off.

 

Yeah but lowers the amount of :Smile_popcorn:

 

 

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Well for the discussion sake - today I was sailing my Bayard, for those that are not familiar with it, it has 16mm nose and stern and most of it is clad in 27mm some of which is neatly angled unless you are angled yourself and at that point becomes a nice flat 27mm surface, so here I am sailing towards C at Shards with a Bismarck and we happen to meet an enemy Bismarck and a Jean Bart comin round the corner with a Zao and Neptune in tow...

 

Now what is the proper play OP suggests for me here?

Sail forward and try a kamikaze torp run until they overmatch me to death?

Stop dead and sail backward until they overmatch me to death?

Rage quit?

 

I accept being limited here but I don t quite get what the counter move here is? What do I do apart from kiting away and for that I have to turn at one point to do so  and will be showing my broadside at some point. With 16km range you CANNOT stay on the map border and snipe the whole match, besides the point of fast flanking cruiser should be to use that speed and you know - flank the enemy, no? So you will encounter an enemy fleet, including BBs and you dont always have the luxury of a dd spotting either, so what does the OP suggest? Never play cruiser? I mean it boils down to that basically, if every broadside is an automatic multicit it will be CV, BB and DD world...

 

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