Make citadels un-overpennable

[Floofz]

Getting quiet fed up with cruisers using full broadside as a legit strategy these days. A cruiser full broadside at almost point blank range to a BB should die, there shouldnt be a question about it, they should get wrecked out of the ocean. Just had a game in the Sinop where at 4 times cruisers went FULL broadside at below 5 km range and I didnt get a single citadel the entire game. Infact if those two cruisers wouldve died when they shouldve its possible we couldve won that game (which we lost).

As its very unlikely that I missed all 9 shells in their broadside 4 times in a row Im guessing it overpens their citadel and only does overpen damage which is why Im suggesting making hits to citadel unable to overpen.

Agree/disagree?

[thiextar]

It would be a massive indirect buff to battleships, and its not exactly like they need it, battleships are doing just fine as it is, so the only way to implement it would be to also nerf citadel damage. Personally, i dont see the point, some cruisers are squishy enough to go full broadside at close range, so if you face those, either load he or aim under the waterline...

[loppantorkel]

11 minutes ago, thiextar said:

.... either load he or aim under the waterline...

This is just a bad solution. It's the same for heavy cruisers which are beaten by the light ones at close range. I agree with OP - This mechanic should be looked at. It's just bad now as it is.

[Floofz]

16 minutes ago, thiextar said:

It would be a massive indirect buff to battleships, and its not exactly like they need it, battleships are doing just fine as it is, so the only way to implement it would be to also nerf citadel damage. Personally, i dont see the point, some cruisers are squishy enough to go full broadside at close range, so if you face those, either load he or aim under the waterline...

 

Bad play should be punished. If I go full broadside in a BB to another BB I will die, so why shouldnt cruisers? Its even a worse play to get that close to a BB in a CA/CL. Its ridicolous that less armor= more armor.

[thiextar]

9 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

This is just a bad solution. It's the same for heavy cruisers which are beaten by the light ones at close range. I agree with OP - This mechanic should be looked at. It's just bad now as it is.

Maybe every class dont need a good solution to counter any possible situation?

[thiextar]

19 hours ago, Floofz said:

 

Bad play should be punished. If I go full broadside in a BB to another BB I will die, so why shouldnt cruisers? Its even a worse play to get that close to a BB in a CA/CL. Its ridicolous that less armor= more armor.

its not bad play if the cruisers knows its the best way to avoid damage, then its good play

 

[ColonelPete]

One could also avoid getting too close, especially since some cruisers have torps.

 

Apert from that, yes, it can happen, but usually you take out the broadside cruiser.

[Floofz]

Just now, thiextar said:

its not bad play if the cruisers play knows its the best way to avoid damage, then its good play

 

 

I have a feeling that the two dudes in the no camo and no flags Dallas and Emile Bertin didnt do it cause they knew Id overpen. They did it because they didnt know any better, and I should be able to punish them. Instead the Emile Bertin managed to get close enough to torp me, which I managed to avoid but I beached in the process and got focused down.

I actualy tried this in the Sinop against these two ships in the training room. Its very difficult to oneshot these ships from close range at full broadside.

[ColonelPete]

4 minutes ago, Floofz said:

Instead the Emile Bertin managed to get close enough to torp me, which I managed to avoid but I beached in the process and got focused down.

And that should be avoided at all costs. Emile is not that stealthy, just fast.

 

And take a look at the armor model:

https://gamemodels3d.com/games/worldofwarships/vehicles/pfsc105

[ColonelPete]

1 minute ago, YesAndNoOrYes said:

hahahha if you don't know your game don't talk [edited] anymore !!!! WG change the mechanics for citadels , now you overpen them if they are close !!!! go play ignorant somewhere else autistic forum kid 

WG did not change the mechanics. But feel free to be clueless.

And it looks like you cannot shake your habit that gets you chat banned all the time...

[Bear__Necessities]

More buffs for BB’s huh....

 

 

[Floofz]

Just now, Bear_Necessities said:

More buffs for BB’s huh....

 

 

 

When was the latest buff? Honestly as someone who plays all classes somewhat equally. (Yes I have more BB games but thats mainly because I started grinding those) BBs in high tier is by far the weakest class, CVs are the strongest and DDs the second strongest. In lower tiers DDs remain the strongest but BBs are stronger than cruisers.

BBs is the only class that has special handicaps in not being able to do full pens to DDs and overpens cruisers at closer ranges where as DDs can blap a BB easely from close range and a cruiser with torp can do the same.

[thiextar]

1 minute ago, Floofz said:

BBs in high tier is by far the weakest class

 

[Floofz]

1 minute ago, thiextar said:

 

 

How about an actual argument instead of [edited]? It seems to just be "common knowledge" that BBs are apparently the strongest class in all tiers, where there is no evidence for it. BBs in high tiers gets farmed from long range by HE spamming cruisers, or torped to death by DDs they cant see. If I am okay with that then I should atleast be able to blap a cruiser if I manage to get close enough shouldnt I? Or should cruisers be completely unblappable? How do you make a BB go into caps and brawl if everything it faces counters them? The people on this forum has such a strange and counterproductive view of what BBs should do.

[ColonelPete]

11 minutes ago, Floofz said:

 

How about an actual argument instead of [edited]? It seems to just be "common knowledge" that BBs are apparently the strongest class in all tiers, where there is no evidence for it. BBs in high tiers gets farmed from long range by HE spamming cruisers, or torped to death by DDs they cant see. If I am okay with that then I should atleast be able to blap a cruiser if I manage to get close enough shouldnt I? Or should cruisers be completely unblappable? How do you make a BB go into caps and brawl if everything it faces counters them? The people on this forum has such a strange and counterproductive view of what BBs should do.

Player Average for Shipclasses [ at 2019/09/14 ] Svr.eu

div	name	class	players	total battles	average of rates
					battles	win	draw	lose	exp	damage caused	warship destroyed	aircraft destoryed	base capture	base defense	survived	kill / death	agro damage	spot damage	hit ratio
1	BB	Higher Tier	46867	5724393	122.14	50.42	0.02	49.56	1467	63844	0.74	2.81	3.56	4.30	35.20	1.14	1273702	17497	27.57
1	CA	Higher Tier	38176	4540040	118.92	50.38	0.02	49.59	1481	55277	0.68	2.61	6.21	6.80	33.25	1.02	855323	15965	30.80
1	CV	Higher Tier	3473	332584	95.76	51.23	0.03	48.74	1701	61353	0.84	4.66	0.45	12.22	74.27	3.26	239465	54384	0.00
1	DD	Higher Tier	26753	3184312	119.03	50.37	0.02	49.61	1482	38605	0.71	1.36	28.90	6.28	29.24	1.00	483909	27454	42.58
2	BB	Lower Tier	18968	1750771	92.30	49.86	0.07	50.07	951	35932	0.74	2.02	3.47	5.03	37.57	1.19	720293	8300	23.89
2	CA	Lower Tier	20980	1978311	94.30	49.78	0.19	50.03	853	20981	0.63	1.09	4.55	6.48	23.29	0.82	418882	6613	29.67
2	CV	Lower Tier	3585	312897	87.28	51.08	0.07	48.85	936	32386	0.72	2.90	0.63	11.82	63.54	1.97	151671	20701	0.00
2	DD	Lower Tier	16010	1503731	93.92	49.89	0.12	50.00	893	19956	0.66	0.63	16.59	4.70	21.68	0.84	313843	10988	40.30

[ForlornSailor]

I can see both your points @thiextar and @Floofz and I kinda agree with both sides. What bothers me, is, that heavy cruisers in those situations get punished harder than light cruisers - for having the better armor.

 

Another thing, that should be taken into concideration: it teaches players bad habbits. If you get away showing broadside all the time in your Atlanta (f.e), then you go and play a Buffalo... you will think "what the f is going on?" Only a small percentage of the playerbase is skilled enough to activly make use of this mechanic. The rest makes use of it unconsciously. And if they look at the armor models in game, they might think, they will even be better of in their heavy cruiser compare to light cruisers, because the armor is "better".

 

To kinda make both sides happy, the game needs to be reworked I guess. Light cruisers would need smaller citas, which then in return cant be overpenetrated.

 

38 minutes ago, Floofz said:

If I am okay with that then I should atleast be able to blap a cruiser if I manage to get close enough shouldnt I?

 

What happens, when BBs get slightly better accuracy and penetration can be witnesses in this seasons clanwars aka "season 6: make Cruisers obsolete". This is a two-sided sword and we need to be careful, what we ask for.

[Sunleader]

I dont think that Overpenetration should count as Citadel.

An Overpenetration is an Overpenetration.

 

What I do think however is that Overpens should be more of a Theat.

Its true that its quite Ridiculous lately. That a Cruiser just goes Full Broadside 5km away from a Battleship and then can Farm that Battleship to death because the Battleship wont get anything above 5-6k Hits on him thanks to just landing Overpens all the Time.

 

One Good Solution might be that Overpens could Deal 1/4 instead of 1/6 of the Shells Alpha Damage. (Normal Pens do 1/3)

Or you could make Overpens a bit more Dangeous. Overpens that Exit the Ship below the Waterline could cause a Light Flooding which has 1/3 of the Duration of a Torpedo caused Flooding.

 

 

However. While I think its indeed Stupid that Cruisers can Tank BB Shells by Showing Broadside. People also need to keep in mind that Cruiser cannot Bowtank most Battleships.

So they dont have much Choice to begin with.

 

So if make Overpens Stronger we also need to do something about the Stupid Overmatch Mechanic.

In General I think Overmatch should be Removed from the Game entirely.

But at least it Should stop being an Automatic Penetration and should instead maybe just get a Reduced Chance of Ricochet.

Cause dont get me Wrong. But even the Yamatos 460mm Shells would in Reality Bounce off of 32mm Armor when they hit it at 80 Degrees Angle.

There is a Chance the Side of the Shell might Press into the Armor and Deform it enough for the Shell to Tumble into the Armor and Grip into it. But the Shell would afterwards have almost no Penetration Power anymore as it would be Tumbling and Damaged.

 

 

So Simple Solution.

Make Overpens deal 1/4 instead of 1/6 of the Alpha Damage. But also Remove Overmatch and Replace it with an Decreased Richochet Chance. So that Bow Citadels against Cruisers become much more Rare.

 

Making Overpens go into Citadel when a Cruiser Literally cannot really do anything but Show his Broadside to a BB if he doesnt want to be Overmatched and thus Auto Citadelled. Would not Fix it anything. It would just make Cruisers completely useless.

[ColonelPete]

20 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

So Simple Solution.

Make Overpens deal 1/4 instead of 1/6 of the Alpha Damage. But also Remove Overmatch and Replace it with an Decreased Richochet Chance. So that Bow Citadels against Cruisers become much more Rare.

Damage recieved would go through the roof. For all ships. DD and CA/CL would get hit the most.

Btw. overpens do 10%.

[DFens_666]

2 hours ago, Floofz said:

 

I have a feeling that the two dudes in the no camo and no flags Dallas and Emile Bertin didnt do it cause they knew Id overpen. They did it because they didnt know any better, and I should be able to punish them. Instead the Emile Bertin managed to get close enough to torp me, which I managed to avoid but I beached in the process and got focused down.

I actualy tried this in the Sinop against these two ships in the training room. Its very difficult to oneshot these ships from close range at full broadside.

 

Emile is basicly impossible to citadel if it shows broadside. The armor is just too thin, that the shells most likely wont even arm at all. Dallas has the problem of actually having a tiny citadel. Ive overpenetrated Dallas' simply by hitting the wrong place.

But i think, its mostly a problem on low-midtiers and ofc russian bias shells dont help, as they are very fast. So its more likely for them to overpenetrate. On the other hand, ive gotten overpens on the citadel with Algerie on an Omaha at close range... kinda sucks aswell.

 

Just did some training room testing to show it:

Dallas Citadel marked in red: first hit did get a Citadel. Cant really tell if it was underwater, but i dont think it was not after looking where it hit. 2nd hit he was dead already.

Spoiler

 

Cant Citadel Omaha at 4km - shells will go through.

Spoiler

 

Emile Broadside overpens because no armor (or french armor). 2nd volley straight from behind - Citadel.

Spoiler

 

Algerie Broadside only overpens because french armor. 2nd screen is aiming for Algerie weakspot at the front turret, the french Cruiser have it after Emile IIRC. Citadel right away.

Spoiler

 

[Gnomus]

One solution would be make overpens on citadel act like normal pens (33%). This would mean that offering full broadside is bad business, but not automatically wipe out ships (which would happen if over pens on citadel would give 100% damage).

 

Overpen system is good enough on non critical areas of ships. When shell goes through mess hall, crew quarters or fuel tanks it is not big deal (thus 10% damage). When you start to make 6/8/14/15/16 inch holes to high pressure steam engines or ammunition storages it doesn't need to explode to make a big mess (thus damage should be 33% even if not 100%). 

[mtm78]

4 hours ago, Floofz said:

Agree/disagree?

 

 

Yeah cuz we need more BB master race changes... 

[anonym_WQDIB9XrzbSp]

3 hours ago, Floofz said:

BBs in high tier is by far the weakest class

[mtm78]

1 hour ago, Gnomus said:

One solution would be make overpens on citadel act like normal pens (33%). This would mean that offering full broadside is bad business, but not automatically wipe out ships (which would happen if over pens on citadel would give 100% damage)

 

I get frustrated when playing BB against cruisers when this happens, but if they change this to 33% cruiser gameplay will be even more restricted, no more turning when you're not sure no one is looking at you funny.

 

But hey maybe something like this, but then let's give all cruisers from low tier upwards a heal. 

[Floofz]

22 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

 

I get frustrated when playing BB against cruisers when this happens, but if they change this to 33% cruiser gameplay will be even more restricted, no more turning when you're not sure no one is looking at you funny.

 

But hey maybe something like this, but then let's give all cruisers from low tier upwards a heal. 

 

This is actualy something Ive been thinking about. I actualy dont see the reason why not all cruisers like BBs have a heal. Atleast from say tier 3-4 and upwards. It would make them way more competitive when uptiered and they wouldnt really become too powerful either.

As I said before, BBs are more powerful than cruisers up to around tier 9 and then cruisers are better (with some exceptions ofcourse) at carrying games.

Also, theres no real reason why we cant lower the citadel on cruisers in general, to make them harder to hit from range. My only gripe is that if a cruiser makes a mistake a BB should be able to punish him, which they currently cant.

[GulvkluderGuld]

5 hours ago, Floofz said:

..... which is why Im suggesting making hits to citadel unable to overpen.

Agree/disagree?

I guess Torps dropped at 4-5 km should home in and be unable to miss? And all CV ordnance is dropped less than that distance too, so that should also be unable to miss?

 

All we need then is an auto-clicker then we don't even have to be present to play this stupid game....