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Purnylla

ARGH at all those torpedos

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I'm currently playing tier 2 and 3 ships and the amount of times I got blown up by torpedos is getting me annoyed. Yes I know it requires some skill to dodge them, but they system is extremely unforgiving for new players and I'm really starting to hate torpedos.

 

Can I expect this torpedo madness to carry on in higher tiers? 

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On 9/14/2019 at 12:56 PM, Purnylla said:

I'm currently playing tier 2 and 3 ships and the amount of times I got blown up by torpedos is getting me annoyed. Yes I know it requires some skill to dodge them, but they system is extremely unforgiving for new players and I'm really starting to hate torpedos.

 

Can I expect this torpedo madness to carry on in higher tiers? 

No. Unless you do not learn what the WASD keys are for.

Torpedos are dodged before they get spotted.

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[GEUS]
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So, basically just stay away from those pesky destroyers? 

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Yes and no.

It depends on what your team can see and who helps you spotting.

If you are alone and you cannot see the DD, keep your distance, move to your teammates.

If a DD is spotted and someone near you uses Hydro, you can get as close as 5km to a DD in a BB without a problem.

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3 hours ago, Purnylla said:

Can I expect this torpedo madness to carry on in higher tiers?

Sort of - generally speaking, the capabilities of torps get even nastier as you go up the tiers i.e. faster, more damage, longer range.

 

However, you also gain some or all of the following: better torp protection, faster ships, hydro.

 

Most importantly, if you take your time going up the tiers (so resist the urge to buy Jean Bart or similar after only a dozen battles), you'll learn the necessary techniques/information required to massively mitigate torp attacks. This includes things like effective dodging, WASD hacks, unsporting behaviour such as not driving your BB in a straight line at a constant speed for minutes on end, predicting where attacks will come from before they even happen (yay, mini-map), blowing up DDs (the main culprits) before they even fire, the correct use of hydro, not parking broadside on in smoke, and so on. It also helps to know the capabilities of the ships (which comes with time, unless you obsessively memorise the wiki) you're facing e.g. you don't need to worry about a lot of Russians until you're within 4 km; T7-8 US DD torps have a range of 9.2 km, but are horribly slow; many IJN torps can be seen from the next galaxy, so lots of warning time.

 

Also, if you find torps are giving you trouble, suggest playing some DDs yourself, and watch/learn from what others do to avoid your attacks. This is actually a good principle in most aspects of the game: play as many different ships as possible, even if all you're doing is learning how to counter them.

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Additional: as @ColonelPete alludes to, most evasion of torp attacks happens before you've even seen the incoming torps. This comes through a mixture of practice, and (especially) effective use of the information the game gives you. Some areas to contemplate:

  • Mini-map: one of the most important sources of information you have e.g. if the enemy DD is on the other side of the map, you probably aren't about to get torped by him; if the enemy is in range, think about at least basic evasion (predict likely attack vectors) and where islands that may provide cover are; if the enemy is lost (i.e. no-one has him spotted), try and keep a mental note of where he is likely to be and plan evasion accordingly.
  • Spotted warning: if that yellow exclamation mark goes off at the top of your screen, someone has you spotted; if you can't see them yourself, it's probably a DD stalking you - start trying to mess up his firing solution etc.
  • WASD: obviously, when you spot incoming torps you'll try and dodge; in big lumbering ships, this can often be too late. If you think there is a possibility of incoming torps, change speed and direction, ideally in a non-predictable way; this will make good aiming of torps a lot harder - only the better players are good at predictive aiming, which is what is needed to hit targets that know about WASD. It's a good policy to apply WASD anyway, even when you aren't about to be torped, as it throws off people's gun aim too.
  • Priority Target: if you have this captain skill, it can actually help pre-emptive dodging of torps. As you probably know, this skill tells you how many main batteries are aiming at your ship; its main purpose is to give information that allows you to make better decisions about when to bravely run away from a superior force etc. There is also an extra plus: when a DD is trying to engage you with torps, it will often 'acquire' you with guns selected and then switch to torps to fire the latter - if the number shown by PT drops by one (and sometimes then increases by one) and nothing else caused it, that's a good indicator that the DD fired torps. A word of warning though: moderate to good DD drivers know this as well and may well switch from guns to torps without firing their fish, to spoof you; some DD drivers will also run around with torps selected from the off, so they can fire without giving such a warning.

To provide a bit of context: I'm a below average DD main, so I fire a lot of torps; I currently have about 3.4K random battles played and I'm showing a 7% torp hit rate - even allowing for speculative launches and general incompetence, that's a pretty low hit rate. So, don't worry - with a bit of practice you'll be messing my hit rate up in no time too.

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It gets sorta kinda a bit better in the higher tiers because the reload times and the engagement distances get longer.

 

By and large.

 

Except for certain exceptions.

 

The low tiers are really quite chaotic in that way and not really representative.

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On 9/14/2019 at 11:56 AM, Purnylla said:

I'm currently playing tier 2 and 3 ships and the amount of times I got blown up by torpedos is getting me annoyed. Yes I know it requires some skill to dodge them, but they system is extremely unforgiving for new players and I'm really starting to hate torpedos.

 

Can I expect this torpedo madness to carry on in higher tiers? 

yes worse and worse.  most DD's just sit  in thier stealth field spamming wall of no skill on CD hoping to get lucky. and they get bigger and bigger!

you can learn tricks to avoid a lot but there going to get you now and then.

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@Purnylla Don't listen to the chap above me. At 1916 battles played, my bet is he's rushed through the tiers and does not have the skills to mitigate torpedo attacks, so he just comes on here to moan.

I don't have any advice to give beyond what @ColonelPete and @Verblonde have already said, I just felt like pointing out that if you can learn how to cope with torps, you'll be doing better than ^ this guy.

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13 minutes ago, Captain_LOZFFVII said:

@Purnylla Don't listen to the chap above me. At 1916 battles played, my bet is he's rushed through the tiers and does not have the skills to mitigate torpedo attacks, so he just comes on here to moan.

I don't have any advice to give beyond what @ColonelPete and @Verblonde have already said, I just felt like pointing out that if you can learn how to cope with torps, you'll be doing better than ^ this guy.

 

yeah that must be it! notice the way you didnt use any reason you just went straight ad hominem to try and invalidate it.

but the OP asked

 

On 9/14/2019 at 11:56 AM, Purnylla said:

Can I expect this torpedo madness to carry on in higher tiers?

 

hes asking if torp spam is a contious part of the game. i know shifting the point and going with a git gud is what all the cool kids do i just dont think it helps to mislead the new guy.  you haveing a 100% torp dodge rate and being soo much more better than me doesnt change the issue they are fired in the first place. does it?

 

 

Op

t2-3 is often flooded with DD's making up to 50% of teams  that aspect gets better but at tx you have this floating around

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Shimakaze

that can put 15 fish in the water then 30 seconds later do it again with its reload booster consumable.

 

also you will start running into DD who have torp ranges that far exceed the range they can be seen from.

 

 

 

in damn near every game there is going to be an amount of torp spam and speculative walls of no skill , its just what they do.  as others have said you learn to vary speed and direction. but sometimes that puts in the line of something aimed at other people and sometimes you dont have the luxury .  Captain_LOZFFVII above is gosou (i think thats the term they use) but myself i find they still hit me sometimes. they only have to get lucky once and if its the first 10th or 20th time they have spammed you from stealth its still annoying when it happens!

 

Just hope there is a nice friendly CV around to spot those pesky wall spammers! or join the dark side and become one yourself, dd tears taste great!

 

 

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2 hours ago, Padds01 said:

t2-3 is often flooded with DD's making up to 50% of teams  that aspect gets better but at tx you have this floating around

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Shimakaze

that can put 15 fish in the water then 30 seconds later do it again with its reload booster consumable.

I stopped reading.

:Smile_veryhappy:

Care to take another look down that wiki page for Shimakaze and tell me where it says she has torpedo reload booster?:Smile_veryhappy:

 

@Purnylla take this as evidence that Padds has no idea what he's talking about.

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2 hours ago, Padds01 said:

yeah that must be it! notice the way you didnt use any reason you just went straight ad hominem

He is correct though. You have some T10s on less than 2k battles, a bunch of relatively-often played high-tier premiums and more than a quarter of your battles has been played on and above T8.

This is while you are on average a drag on your team in anything but your CVs.

 

 

So now let's look at your statement which you elaborate in your more recent post and

2 hours ago, Padds01 said:

use [any] reason [...] to try and invalidate it.

Yes, that.

 

3 hours ago, Padds01 said:

yes worse and worse.  most DD's just sit  in thier stealth field spamming wall of no skill on CD hoping to get lucky. and they get bigger and bigger!

you can learn tricks to avoid a lot but there going to get you now and then.

 

Technically you are correct in some aspects but you are wrong in your over-all conclusion.

The problem with your statement is that you put the emphasis on the DDs advancing while omitting everything else.

 

Yes the DDs will get more torpedos with more range and will prolly spam them within 1-2x the CD-timer.

Yes you can learn how to mitigate torpedo-dmg (A LOT!), but you will still eat some fishies at times.
And Yes the DDs get better but so does your own ship and those of your allies.

 

You get hydro and/or radar (depending on the line), more accurate guns, torps of your own (again depends on the ship) and much better speed, all of which helps evade torps and spot and/or kill DDs.

And while the DDs get more torps the CDs tend to get longer too so while they will throw our more torps at a time they will only be able to do so every 1-2+ minutes instead of every 40s.

The maps and engagement ranges tend to get much longer which means that the torpedoes will on average be fired from much longer range as well so even small course-corrections can make them miss by a lot.

Your own DDs will also usually be more capable and be between you and the enemy DDs and can spot those torpedos for you so you can take evasive action.

Lastly you will get better as a player and learn when an enemy DD is (likely) around and when to expect torpedo-attacks.

Even modest course- and speed-corrections are enough to mostly or completely foil most torpedo-attacks from anything but almost suicidally close range.

 

2 hours ago, Padds01 said:

they only have to get lucky once and if its the first 10th or 20th time they have spammed you from stealth its still annoying when it happens!

Remember: If you eat a DD-torp but the DD wasted the entire match trying to land something on you

that's one enemy ship spending all his time getting frustrated trying to get a single solid hit instead of doing something useful.

 

2 hours ago, Padds01 said:

at tx you have this floating around

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Shimakaze

that can put 15 fish in the water then 30 seconds later do it again with its reload booster consumable.

That on the other hand is complete rubbish. (emphasis by me)

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Should you be a Magic, the gathering fan, remember In Halfbeard, goblin tactician: "don't look, maybe they'll just go away!"

Seriously though: on said levels the Toro ranges aren't that far. My guess is you rush in too hard. Also be careful with islands: there is a DD hiding for you until proven otherwise. And finally: if the "detected" goes on without you seeing any red ships: expect torps (and shells) on route to you. 

Especially with a BB: make changing speed and course more of a habit than breathing. That'll help you tremendously when leveling up. In higher tiers there are torps with 20km range.

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@Purnylla, wellcome to the game and, as ColonelPete said, torpedoes are properly avoided well before spotting them. I've prepared the following image to show it:

Torpedoes.png.9303ef50cec3f50629aee8d9e22580b1.png

The filled ellipses are the torping ship (green) and its prey (red). If the prey keeps course and speed (pink arrow) it'll end in the red dashed position and meet the eels, which followed the blue arrow. But if the prey turns, it'll end in either of the orange dashed locations (and follow the orange dashed arrows, that are shorter since a turn bleeds some speed -represented by the arc-), thus not being hit. So an early response mitigates the risks.

 

Since you still are at lower tiers, that means they can't torp you from stealth unless hiding behind the island you're going around, so pay attention to DDs that turn and give you some broadside, it usually means they're going for a torpedo run. Higher tiers tend to have less destroyers in play but now many can torpedo in the open while unspotted.

 

Once you've reached the account level that unlocks captain skills, it's useful for cruisers and battleships to spend the very first skill point in Priority Target because there's a pretty "feature" that helps in evaluing when to turn for torpedo avoidance: PT puts a counter by the "detected" warning saying how many ships are aiming at you with their main guns, which means that whenever a ship switches to aim the torpedo launchers the counter goes down by one. Many people do the gun-torpedo-gun cycle when readying a torp launch, so if the counter goes down then up a couple of seconds later, it's quite possible a destroyer is delivering noodles.

 

Salute.

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On 9/14/2019 at 12:56 PM, Purnylla said:

I'm currently playing tier 2 and 3 ships and the amount of times I got blown up by torpedos is getting me annoyed. Yes I know it requires some skill to dodge them, but they system is extremely unforgiving for new players and I'm really starting to hate torpedos.

 

Can I expect this torpedo madness to carry on in higher tiers? 

The "skill" is this game is knowledge and awareness. A good player often knows, where DDs could be, and when he has to turn away from potential torpedo threat. That something that you learn over many games

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1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

The "skill" is this game is knowledge and awareness. A good player often knows, where DDs could be, and when he has to turn away from potential torpedo threat. That something that you learn over many games

Situational awareness, it's not just a captain's skill.

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On 9/19/2019 at 10:02 PM, Captain_LOZFFVII said:

I stopped reading.

:Smile_veryhappy:

Care to take another look down that wiki page for Shimakaze and tell me where it says she has torpedo reload booster?:Smile_veryhappy:

 

@Purnylla take this as evidence that Padds has no idea what he's talking about.

doh , you got me , that was an assumption and you know what they say about them. but i didnt mention the mods or captain skill to either. you are right my lack of encyclopedic knowledge does invalidate my point, high tier DD's clearly do not spam torps about more than low tier!  

 

On 9/19/2019 at 10:06 PM, rnat said:

He is correct though. You have some T10s on less than 2k battles, a bunch of relatively-often played high-tier premiums and more than a quarter of your battles has been played on and above T8.

This is while you are on average a drag on your team in anything but your CVs.

I could just be bad , 

But i have to disagree with this strawman that skill is required for understanding. and the inferance understanding brings skill , its just not how it works. especially as the question at hand required neither simply basic observational ability.

 

On 9/19/2019 at 10:06 PM, rnat said:

Technically you are correct in some aspects but you are wrong in your over-all conclusion.

The problem with your statement is that you put the emphasis on the DDs advancing while omitting everything else.

 

 

<Edited out bunch of very true stuff about mitigating/avoiding torps>

 

no argument at all. 

 

On 9/19/2019 at 10:06 PM, rnat said:

Remember: If you eat a DD-torp but the DD wasted the entire match trying to land something on you

that's one enemy ship spending all his time getting frustrated trying to get a single solid hit instead of doing something useful.

yep again all very true , but it wasnt the question i was answering , the op asked 

 

On 9/14/2019 at 11:56 AM, Purnylla said:

Can I expect this torpedo madness to carry on in higher tiers?

and i said yes you can. the number of destroyers tends to go down but the amount they puke goes up. 

 

and yes i assumed shima had torp reload. my bad

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4 hours ago, Padds01 said:

and i said yes you can. the number of destroyers tends to go down but the amount they puke goes up. 

This is both true and false. The amount of torps on some lines stays pretty much the same from tier 6 and up, what changes is how hard they hit and/or the reload. So in a sense you see more fish as on some DD's (KM and US) you can get low cooldown but low damage on the former and high damage and low-ish cooldown on the latter.

 

However the tools to detect, knock out, counter and avoid all together both DD's and torps also rises exponentially the higher up you go with more and powerful Hydro, radars, speed, CV's, Dakka and sheer tankiness on certain vessels.

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8 hours ago, Padds01 said:

doh , you got me , that was an assumption and you know what they say about them. but i didnt mention the mods or captain skill to either. you are right my lack of encyclopedic knowledge does invalidate my point, high tier DD's clearly do not spam torps about more than low tier!

I'm glad you're capable of admitting to your mistakes, a lot of players in your position will simply go dark and not admit to anything.

A wise man once said "Admitting you were wrong is the first step to getting better" or something like that.

Shimakaze in particular, as good as a 15-torpedo broadside (one that can go out as far as 20km) seems to be, is hampered extremely badly for all of these 'features' of her torpedoes. Firstly, her torpedo reload is over 2minutes, with only the 8km torpedoes managing to drop below that, regardless of how many captain skills or modules you equip on her. Secondly, her torpedoes are spotted from the moon, meaning that they can be dodged very easily on reaction time alone. There is a very good reason why Shimakaze is at the bottom of the T10 DDs on pretty much all stats sites.

9 hours ago, Padds01 said:

But i have to disagree with this strawman that skill is required for understanding. and the inferance understanding brings skill , its just not how it works.

Whereas you are correct with the first half of this (skill is not required for understanding), the second half is simply how life works (understanding brings skill). If you understand something better than someone else, your skill level is inherently higher because of your understanding. Like driving, for expample: the knowledge that actively braking on hills is simply bleeding off some of the kinetic energy from your movement and turning it into heat energy, meaning you need to spend more fuel in order to get that kinetic energy back (and also wears down your brake pads faster), will make you more economical by realising you can use your engine to slow down by simply shifting into a lower gear (this is called Engine Braking).

 

I will admit that, because I refuse to directly stats-shame people, I had no idea what kind of ships you played or at what tiers. I simply used a guess that told me because I didn't have my first T10 until around 3k battles, you with 1900 battles probably did not have the in-game experience of high-tier DDs to really be able to tell a newbie how bad the torpedo situation was at high-tiers. And, given my second T10 was Shimakaze, I felt pretty qualified to state how mistaken you were.

Given I know the inside-and-out of Shimakaze in particular, I also snorted with laughter when I read "30 seconds later" and "reload booster".

Oh how I would love for Shimakaze to have a reload booster on my 20km lol torps. Nothing would escape from my wall of death!:cap_haloween:

 

In any case, if what @rnat said is true and 1/4 of your battles are in high-tier, when you only have less than 2000 battles under your belt...I can only advise that you find a line that you like, go back to T2 and regrind from the bottom. Do not be tempted to skip tiers with any FreeXP you have. You will learn a lot more about the ins-and-outs by going back to being a newb and working your way up from there. Also, take the time to actually play DDs, you will learn a lot about what they can and cannot do.

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On 9/22/2019 at 1:02 PM, Padds01 said:

I could just be bad , 

But i have to disagree with this strawman that skill is required for understanding. and the inferance understanding brings skill , its just not how it works. especially as the question at hand required neither simply basic observational ability.

This game needs quite some learning. I doubt there are many players that are much of an asset to their teams before they reach ~3k battles.

The higher tier they play on average the more battles needed to get up to par with the average skill set.

And contrary to your assumption skill does play a role in how the battles are observed.

Someone who is fairly adept at anticipating and dodging torpedoes will on average have less unpleasant experiences with such sea-food

and thus rank their relative threat-level lower, same applies with situational awareness v. getting blapped by an unexpected BB-salvo or (the classic example) fires.

Likewise someone who isn't adept at reading the mini-map or the flow of battle will have a hard time understanding why his flanking maneuver didn't work out or how he did get that Kraken he never expected ect ect.

 

On 9/22/2019 at 1:02 PM, Padds01 said:

yep again all very true , but it wasnt the question i was answering , the op asked 

And besides the part you quoted being an afterthought what me and Captain_LOZFFVII noted is that we consider your threat assessment to be off

or at least seemingly overstated when taking the whole picture into account, weather that be intentional or not.

 

Last thing:

On 9/22/2019 at 10:33 PM, Captain_LOZFFVII said:

In any case, if what @rnat said is true

I am always right.

*Jingles voice* Don't you know who I am ? */Jingles voice*

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Make Your minimap bigger by using + and - keys.

 

Learn to look on the minimap every 3-4 seconds so you can improve your positioning and get information where the enemy ships are.

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Cannot fault the advice that preparedness to avoid torpedoes is the only way to stay above the water surface.  However, on the matter of just how many torpedoes can be in the water at a time and allowing for the fact that as accurate as the digital ship design is, the game play is very game play and not simulation.  I know that in the real world torpedoes are very complicated devices that often fail, they take much longer to  prepare and load than the game allows and that the number of torpedoes carried by ships and planes limits the number that a skipper would launch as he needs to conserve his supply.  This is balanced by the fact that it seems that torpedo hits and damage are in reality worse that portrayed in the game and lastly the game lasts such a short time that skippers have no incentive to conserve torpedo stocks.  You have to come to terms with the fact that the game designers decided that torpedoes would be used far more often than in reality and that players getb used to the fact that sometime you can almost walk across the map on the torpedoes in the water at any given time (irony!)

 

Personally I'd like a less active game play design with longer games, larger maps and lower expectations of blazing action.  In fact more simulation than game, but it is a game and I have to come terms with the fact that to make money from it WG have to appeal to the mass games market where blood and thunder are the most desired aspects of gaming.  So, if you cannot develop the skills to avoid torpedoes, develop a couldn't care less attitude, enjoy the game and sink with a smile on your face and not a frown!

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