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Rautainen_Biisoni

Revising captain tree, modifications and give secondaries more chance

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How often are different captain skills useful for different ships in current meta?

Compare:

 

Demolition expert for HE cruiser 

 

vs

 

AFT, BFT, IFHE, Manual Secondary for a brawling BB

Sacrifice 1-2 mod slots for secondaries

 

DE is 100% effective in every game for cruiser and only costs 3 points.

To get a proper secondary BB you have to invest 12-15 points.

How often will you be able to use these points fully?

- You must get into secondary range.

- You must remain in secondary range for many minutes to fully get the effect.

- You must wait for the right opportunity to go for closer brawl.

- You must avoid DDs, CVs, HE burning T10 cruisers.

- You often are the tip of the spear and focused by many enemies while others sit way behind you using their captain points with very high efficiency.

Simply a very high cost and often you get games where you don't get to use your points. This discourage many BB players for example to pick a secondary build.

You lose accuracy, main gun fire-rate, tankiness and stealth. Skills that are in current meta more effective far more often than secondary skills.

Some captain skills and mods cost way too much to be effective and attractive.

 

Cruisers can use low captain points to get 100% efficiency for their points in every round.

A bad cruiser example is AA-cruiser. How often do you meet CVs? How often do they actually strike you or you get to be effective?

AFT, Manual AA, BFT and AA mods. They cost a lot and in current meta their efficiency is low. You only get to fully use these skills in 5-15% of your games. 

Points spent on stealth and tankiness are 100% efficient in your games. Many cruisers that have good AA already don't need extra points.

I have pretty much discarded all AA-builds. I tried to make some for funs and memes but when you rarely get to use them it was clear they weren't effective enough to sacrifice other skills.

 

Most builds focus entirely on damage output and survivability. Cruisers go for tankiness, stealth and DE. BBs go for tankiness and turret traverse. Both in captain tree and ship modifications. Other options are very limited and not appealing.

Captain skill tree and ship mods should be revised heavily. Skill trees have seen little adjustment if you don't take CV rework into account. It gives very little chances customizing and most ship builds are exactly the same.

If u take example from strategy games like Hearts of Iron or adventure games the skills trees are much more vast and give a lot of options. In wows you just go for survivability and firepower, done.

Where is the option to go for more hybrid mods/builds? There isn't really an option to spread out points to suite your playstyles. You often just go for builds that have the best advantage in meta. And those advantages are very clear while other options are highly situational and expensive for their value.

 

Example of skills and mods that have low efficiency:

Survivability expert: Only for DDs.

Manual secondaries: Only for select few BBs.

Manual AA: Don't know exactly its last update but it was expensive and not needed for 95% of ships.

AFT: Only for some DDs. 4 points.

AA- mods: No if there are better options like accuracy.

Secondary mods: Nope for 95% of ships.

Target aquisition mod: This still exists?

 

Secondaries:

Secondary guns were used in many battles during WW2. They had a lot more range than what WOWS offers. Obviously we want to get historical feel but so that it fits a video game.

Secondary ships are rare. I see german BBs mainly with range mods and veteran players stick with tank builds. 

Other BB-lines have huge amount of guns on their sides. Range and accuracy is set very low so even the option of going secondary is not attractive at all. Now they add new ships for brawling. I do like this but other ships have the same armament as the existing ships and its purely for money making now. Pay extra to get a brawling BB at T8-T9? No thanks, I already pay yearly premium.

High tier cruisers have lots of secondary guns. Ever seen one in game? Even for funs and memes?

Where is the option of making a secondary brawling cruisers that want to push behind BBs and provide extra firepower with main guns and 2ndaries?

 

Players have found out the best builds and created the meta. At T10 it's long range, quick aiming, accurate shooting and HE burning. Game offers little other good options.

Its time to boost different builds and add new tactics into this game. Games are made great by its core mechanics that add replayability. Not by adding extra content of the same and making money out of it.

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Yeah, sounds great.

But i think the core issue is, that defending is easier than attacking in this game. Was easily proven in that one gamemode where you had to defend but attackers would respawn in between.

 

38 minutes ago, Rautainen_Biisoni said:

Target aquisition mod: This still exists?

 

Spreadsheet says, 50%* of wows population is using this frequently :Smile_hiding:

Spoiler

*Numbers might have been pulled out of my behind :Smile_trollface:

 

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Really do we need another commander tree reset?! C mon people just remove it already, everyone cries about IPHE but they like theyre 150-180mm cruisers to stand a chance when they are uptiered, they hate HE but they love using Demolition expert, they cry about HE being overpowered ALL DAY LONG but they dont give a crap how SAP does full damage at every angle on each salvo and does not give a damn about damage saturation while HE after 1-2 salvos damage drops significantly. Secondarys? ONLY FOR GERMAN BATTLESHIPS CRAZY SECONDARYS give them AFT already build in make Gunther Lutjens a special commander for battleships give him 100% secondary dispersion reduced when using manual secondarys, 30% increase in range for AFT heck even better BFT!

To much sniping? How about more cyclones and can we get them announced by the start of the match because you know it takes 5 minutes until cyclone approaches( and this happens after 4 minutes since the battle started) but by the time it approaches the enemy is barely having alive 3 ships! More storms, more cyclones, Night battle, RAINY DAY battle, Snow battle and the list can go on! Dont compare HOI4 to WOWS as they are two different games by a big margin( imagine earth and water type of difference)

The commander skills look good to me and they dont need changes right now, also who stops you using SE, DE, Range mod, target aquissition on your battleships? or any secondary and AA bonuses on your cruiser or destroyers, also tank build for cruisers? just moskva and stalingrad but even then these 2 get exterminated way way faster than a battleship with the same tank build! 

Fix something that is broken not something that works like buffing old ships( khabarovsk, huang he, low tier american battleships, some low tier cruisers, german destroyer line and the list can go on) and nerfing some other( harugumo and kitakaze, kremlin) 

How about a reworked ranked system? something new in clan wars? new maps? but no from all of them you are not alright with commander skills really? 

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The viability of secondary guns needs to be kept firmly in hand, and anything other than short range self defence capability given only to ships which pay a significant penalty elsewhere. 

 

It would be absurd for HMS Nelson to be able to make full use of its secondaries... It has an Arethusa's worth of 6 inch guns down each side. And in turn Arethusa has an entire destroyer's worth of 4 inch guns... It would just be a lazy no-skill player environment at close range and a feast for long range snipers. No, ta. 

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22 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

Yeah, sounds great.

But i think the core issue is, that defending is easier than attacking in this game. Was easily proven in that one gamemode where you had to defend but attackers would respawn in between.

 

 

Spreadsheet says, 50%* of wows population is using this frequently :Smile_hiding:

  Reveal hidden contents

*Numbers might have been pulled out of my behind :Smile_trollface:

 

This is true. A game where you have one life and defending game style has too many tools in his pocket will end up in camp. Camping game style decreases tactical and build options heavily.

20 minutes ago, Animalul2012 said:

Really do we need another commander tree reset?! C mon people just remove it already, everyone cries about IPHE but they like theyre 150-180mm cruisers to stand a chance when they are uptiered, they hate HE but they love using Demolition expert, they cry about HE being overpowered ALL DAY LONG but they dont give a crap how SAP does full damage at every angle on each salvo and does not give a damn about damage saturation while HE after 1-2 salvos damage drops significantly. Secondarys? ONLY FOR GERMAN BATTLESHIPS CRAZY SECONDARYS give them AFT already build in make Gunther Lutjens a special commander for battleships give him 100% secondary dispersion reduced when using manual secondarys, 30% increase in range for AFT heck even better BFT!

To much sniping? How about more cyclones and can we get them announced by the start of the match because you know it takes 5 minutes until cyclone approaches( and this happens after 4 minutes since the battle started) but by the time it approaches the enemy is barely having alive 3 ships! More storms, more cyclones, Night battle, RAINY DAY battle, Snow battle and the list can go on! Dont compare HOI4 to WOWS as they are two different games by a big margin( imagine earth and water type of difference)

The commander skills look good to me and they dont need changes right now, also who stops you using SE, DE, Range mod, target aquissition on your battleships? or any secondary and AA bonuses on your cruiser or destroyers, also tank build for cruisers? just moskva and stalingrad but even then these 2 get exterminated way way faster than a battleship with the same tank build! 

Fix something that is broken not something that works like buffing old ships( khabarovsk, huang he, low tier american battleships, some low tier cruisers, german destroyer line and the list can go on) and nerfing some other( harugumo and kitakaze, kremlin) 

How about a reworked ranked system? something new in clan wars? new maps? but no from all of them you are not alright with commander skills really? 

When I compare games I compare their core features. In HOI4 you have to consider your production, research, construction, tactical and strategic capabilities. You plan your diplomacy, war targets, division types, land/sea/air battles. So many different routes you can take. In Wows its mostly about position and ships ability to cause damage. Builds are limited to one or two options. Options are what makes games replayable.

 

You're german special commander is an option for only one line. Why other lines secondaries have to be so bad? They got the guns for it. German line should have the best advantage because its designed but that doesn't mean other lines can't have some of these as well.

 

Nothing stops me from using those skills on my ships. There is just very little use for them for their cost and they take much better options away. Highly ineffective and unattractive. Again very little options.

 

The other things you mentioned should get adjustment. I won't go into those as it will just derail this topic. Make a new topic and a list of things there. I do agree with some of your ideas but putting them all into one topic isn't good.

 

 

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51 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

The viability of secondary guns needs to be kept firmly in hand, and anything other than short range self defence capability given only to ships which pay a significant penalty elsewhere. 

 

It would be absurd for HMS Nelson to be able to make full use of its secondaries... It has an Arethusa's worth of 6 inch guns down each side. And in turn Arethusa has an entire destroyer's worth of 4 inch guns... It would just be a lazy no-skill player environment at close range and a feast for long range snipers. No, ta. 

90% of BBs are not made for secondary range fighting right now. BBs are all essentially long range snipers that don't even get rewarded for tanking or attacking.

Attacking BBs are mostly alone with 30 second reloading guns with 5-6km inaccurate secondary guns and being the first target for enemy team. Not an easy thing to attack and game shows no love for it.

 

Nelson with poor 2ndary gun angles with even 12km secondary range wouldn't be highly effective in its job if the current settings are applied. It takes many minutes to rack up damage with secondaries and you need a 18 build captain to do it.

 

It takes a lot of skill, risk and timing to pull good runs with a Kurfurst these days.

Its about giving chances for more tactics and making ships have more roles. Too many ships are just designed for long range fights now.

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