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The_EURL_Guy

Submarines: Beta Sign-up and Q&A

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Everyone always compares subs to CV's, but I think it's not a great comparison. CV only ever risks it's planes most of the time - the ship itself is safe. A sub will be an extremely fragile glass cannon where every mistake will result either with massive damage or death. It's not exactly the same as "oh no I lost all my torp bombers and rocket planes, I'll just go harras them with dive bombers while they auto replenish".

 

In a way, they will take the DD's role of all of them being dead in the first 2 min when the matchmaker gives you a bunch of 40-something percenters :Smile_trollface:

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I'm excited, unfortunately i won't participate in the Beta Test (even if i would) cause of time restricions.

 

I'm not against the fact that subamrines can go way faster than what they should do underwater, there were submarines in real life that could go at 25 knots (U-4501 and I-201), and since it's for gameplay reasons i'm okay with it.

 

Just want to say to you developers that you can take all the time you need for balancing the submarines. Looking foward to see them in game.

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Remember when they said that they would roll them out gradually and only when the base is consolidated, in order not to get a CF like the CV-reeeeeework? 

 

Yeah, looks like that gets thrown out of the window as well, we'll see subs probably before 2020.

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I signed up for the Beta test and will go in with an open mind.

But i still think that its going to be difficult to balance in such a way that they are effective and still fun for everyone.

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I found it amusing how WG have been trying to implement a player to player interaction between planes and surface ships, and now when you are under the surface you implement some kind of auto-drop that will require the destroyer to hunt a circle, get detected chasing the submarine while  being wrecked by enemy cruisers. Why not implement something that feels more interactive between the surface and sub, I get the feeling this gonna be similar to if you go into battle with a secondary spec Bismarck without manual secondaries and without any main armaments. Just feels very poorly designed...

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I'm sorry, but I want nothing of this. If subs had been in the game back in 2015 then I would never had started playing. I will leave the game if/when subs comes into the main game.

 

GL&HF.

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Excuse me, but why is WG pushing subs in to the game? Who exactly wants them in the game, except WG themselves? I've never seen anyone wish subs were in the game.

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Zitat

Why is it that only destroyers can release depth charges?

It's their historical role.

Yeah, for sure ... now 'historical arguments' are invoked? are you kidding? what happened to 'it's only a game'?

 

every class should at least have a chance to do damage on every other class

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5 minutes ago, MixuS said:

Excuse me, but why is WG pushing subs in to the game? Who exactly wants them in the game, except WG themselves? I've never seen anyone wish subs were in the game.

There were countless of questions on very different occasions that asked "When do we get subs in the game?"

Those were usualy answered with the prior staple answer "subs aren't planned for the game. It's too hard to implement."

There clearly was an interested crowd. I would be fine without subs though.

 

3 minutes ago, JollyDodG3R said:

Yeah, for sure ... now 'historical arguments' are invoked? are you kidding? what happened to 'it's only a game'?

 

every class should at least have a chance to do damage on every other class

It still is that way. Subs can'T dive forever. If they go to the surface any surfaceship can sink them with gunfire.

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Just now, MixuS said:

Excuse me, but why is WG pushing subs in to the game? Who exactly wants them in the game, except WG themselves? I've never seen anyone wish subs were in the game.

Oh, there are plenty of those. Usually, with less than 5k battles and/or from nation that had/have submarines. 

 

WG just will go for another cash grab... They do not care much for anything else. Especially balance, smoot experience and enjoyable gameplay. 

 

P. S. I'm planing my retirement from ships after this :etc_swear: hits general game modes. 

 

... And for WG - no more cash from me going in your account. 

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WG are a bunch of jokers. Truly.

 

Now they are getting rid of players that have been clinging onto some historically accurate version of fleet combat.  Those will now leave the game for good with those crazy sub speeds. So that's the first thing. Although many had already left with all these gimmicks.

 

Second, PLENTY of light cruisers had depth charges. The actual mission statement of the Atlanta class was to provide AA support to the fleet, engage DD's and HUNT AND DESTROY SUBS!  same old WG picking and choosing what is historical and what isn't. 

 

Third, WG need money, they are pushing all this out so quickly in order to make a quick buck.  This will end up being a major screw up.

 

However, i'm not against Subs per say. I would give them ago as they bring another style of play.  But it has to be GOOD style and not brain numbly boring like the re-work CV's. 

 

But we all know they will design it poorly and implement it poorly. Come out not balanced and sell strong premium subs in the shop. When they get the initial rush.....SLAM, they nerf the line.

 

The funnest thing is, they think it will increase player numbers.  In fact, just like the rework, it will decrease them, even more so. The whole thing is a cash grab.

 

Oh and don't even think about testing them.  They truly couldn't give a monkeys about what you think at all, so don't be mugs. 

 

I have 3 straws until leaving the game. The rework was one (fail), The Russian BB was 2nd (Too strong) and 3rd subs.  Lets see shall we, got plenty of other games to play.

 

WG think we are all stupid.

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6 minutes ago, Miessa3 said:

There were countless of questions on very different occasions that asked "When do we get subs in the game?"

Those were usualy answered with the prior staple answer "subs aren't planned for the game. It's too hard to implement."

There clearly was an interested crowd. I would be fine without subs though.

 

It still is that way. Subs can'T dive forever. If they go to the surface any surfaceship can sink them with gunfire.

Well, not if you can do much for them at the surface with lower than DD concealment and air detection plus insane speed. 

 

And with that anti-WASD-hack torps. 

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WG, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

It's only a game so Submarines are going to have unhistorical high-speeds. In fact they'll be able to out-run BBs, true?

 

So then why insist on historical fidelity when excluding all cruisers from the anti-submarine role?

 

Certainly all British light Cruisers had the capability, as well as their anti-air role.

 

That's why HMS Danae when refitted to later become ORP Conrad had her torpedo tubes removed to make room for more depth charges and pom-pom AA guns. As I'm sure you're aware.

 

You should initialise the testing with Hydro being able to detect Subs underwater and with all cruisers having the Hydro consumable equipped being able to drop depth charges, because that's what people expect! If it really is too punishing you can balance that in future test iterations. Otherwise where is the risk versus reward?


Edit: In addition to the question of role-countering you also neglect to consider Hit Point differentials: you rely on exposed Subs to be sunk by gunfire, but you need to make allowances for dispersion against a very small target, and the proposed HP are far too high considering their displacement and lack of citadels. Destroyers need to be able to Ram a Submarine without taking mortal damage in exchange. All ships need to be able to sink exposed Submarines quickly by gunfire.


Edit2: oh yeah, British light Cruisers only shoot AP which will be completely ineffective at doing their historical role (only HE works vs Subs), so screwed over once again!

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2 minutes ago, Episparh said:

Well, not if you can do much for them at the surface with lower than DD concealment and air detection plus insane speed. 

 

And with that anti-WASD-hack torps. 

Well what if the detection is different if the sub is submerged or not.

I am fairly certain what they ment with better than DD concelament meant when submerged.

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7 minutes ago, DanSilverwing said:

WG, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

It's only a game so Submarines are going to have unhistorical high-speeds. In fact they'll be able to out-run BBs, true?

 

So then why insist on historical fidelity when excluding all cruisers from the anti-submarine role?

 

Certainly all British light Cruisers had the capability, as well as their anti-air role.

 

That's why HMS Danae when refitted to later become ORP Conrad had her torpedo tubes removed to make room for more depth charges and pom-pom AA guns. As I'm sure you're aware.

 

You should initialise the testing Hydro being able to detect Subs underwater and with all cruisers having the Hydro consumable equipped being able to drop depth charges, because that's what people expect! If it really is too punishing you can balance that in future test iterations. Otherwise where is the risk versus reward?

 

Don't waste your breath mate.

 

They couldn't care at all about any of that. Only ££££££££.

 

Hard cold truth so don't stress yourself. People have been doing that for years now so don't go there. 

 

They can then sell DD hunters to make even more money with premium ships.  It's a forgone conclusion. 

 

 

 

 

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I am fairly certain what they ment with better than DD concelament meant when submerged.

Concealment attribute applies to surfaced ships only if I remember correctly. Currently only a DD can 'detect' a sumbermged u-boat. So your statement doesn't make that much sense.

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Spoiler

 

What is the main purpose and game concept of submarines?

The in-game role of submarines will partly reflect their historical role. That is, first and foremost, about positioning, planning, waiting for the best moment to attack, and subsequently diving into the depths of the sea to escape retribution. From the right position, a submarine can cause turmoil in enemy lines, strike from an unexpected direction, disable a dangerous enemy, or divert the attention of destroyers towards herself, thereby allowing her allies to act much more freely.

The role of subs in game will reflect their historical role around about 1% of the time. The rest we kind of made up. These things make sense when you've had a few... That is the idea of a sub running amok in a fleet battle environment and creating chaos in the already disorganised Random Battles you all know and love. It'll be fine. Honest.

 

Why do submarines have such high speeds?

Submarines have rarely been fast in reality, and often they have been significantly slower than other ship types. However, World of Warships is still a game, and it has certain conventions that make fights between our enormous steel monsters more dynamic and attractive. That's why, in our game, submarines have some of the same parameters as other ship types—making the game more vigorous and exciting, and also helping to integrate the new ship type comfortably into the game in consideration of its balance. We honestly couldn't shoehorn this ugly duckling of a class into the game without taking reality and throwing it clean out of the nearest window. Reality is really boring anyway - so we'll give diesel subs the speeds of nuclear ones to spice things up a bit. Physics is also vastly overrated. Stop complaining - we're going to get these damn things into the game no matter the cost. 

 

What are sonar pings and what are they needed for?

The Sonar Ping mechanics allow players to get deeply involved in battle and demonstrate their skill. They also represent what these vessels did in reality, albeit presented in a slightly exaggerated form.In real life, an attack on a target took considerable time, and required complex calculations and careful target observation. At the same time, there were torpedoes with acoustic guidance, but they worked in a passive mode. Our mission is to create fascinating gameplay that includes all the tasks of a submarine crew. To do that, we've accepted some conventions by uniting two entities in one. In this way, we tried to turn the hard and painstaking work of submarine crews into fast and exciting gameplay. Because GIMMICK BALANS BEST BALANS. Homing torps won't cause any issues whatsoever. We've done a great deal of research on this and discovered that NO ships were actually sunk by active wire-guided torpedoes in WW1 or WW2 - so you are all overreacting. Research undertaken by the same man who balanced CVs in 0.8.0.

 

How many submarines will we see in battles?

On the test server, no more than two or three submarines per team are planned; on the live server, their number might be decreased to one or two. This will allow us to keep the overall dynamics and advantage of surface warships, as well as present submarines as a ship type that adds diversity to the main gameplay. We are convinced they will be balanced - which is why we'll cap their numbers in the MM to avoid breaking the game. We're SO convinced they'll fit that we'll possibly limit them down to 1 max.

 

Why doesn't the Hydroacoustic Search consumable detect submarines at the underwater level?

At the moment, this is a game convention that allows us to make the underwater level the safest zone for a submarine, where she will be able to avoid most kinds of damage and escape any enemies. However, there are still several test iterations ahead, and these in-game mechanics, as well as other mechanics related to submarines, can change. Like CVs - we have worked out that there are some people who simply cannot use the keyboard effectively. They CAN however use their credit card effectively - so we really do need to make things easier for them. The last thing we want is sub-hunting ships actually being able to find subs using actual technology that was purpose-designed to find underwater objects. That kind of logic has no place in our game in 2019. 

 

Why is it that only destroyers can release depth charges?

It's their historical role. It was destroyers that tracked down and hunted submarines. Despite the fact that sometimes cruisers and battleships carried depth charges, they almost never actively hunted submarines. We're considering adding depth charges to some light cruisers, but it's too early to speak about such changes now. DD players - do you enjoy being chased around the map by rocket planes, radar'd then vaporised by all those new radar ships we'ved added, machine-gunned to bits by all those rapid-fire HE spammers we're selling? GREAT NEWS! You've got another job! You'll love it! 

 

Why are depth charges released automatically and what is zone activation needed for?

Destroyers already perform a wide variety of tasks in battle. By making the release of depth charges automatic, we are reducing the number of actions that the destroyer is required to perform, thereby saving valuable time that a player can spend on other tasks.Moreover, we tested several variants where the player had to click once or several times to release a charge, as well as a variant where the release of charges happened upon activating a consumable. We didn’t find any significant advantages over automatic release, which is why we've chosen this variant.Zone activation is part of the game mechanics for destroyers hunting submarines, displaying their approximate location. Player interaction is so last year. Things are jolly easy when you just automate everything - if we could make ship movement that way we would. Just follow the pretty circles and hope that RNG plays nice. Resistance is futile. You WILL follow the circles.

 

How to fight against a submarine?

Although submarines have the best stealth parameters among all ship types and the possibility of going underwater, they still remain the most fragile ships and have just a small amount of medium-range torpedo armament. Moreover, if a submarine engages in active combat near you, you'll know at once. After she uses a sonar ping, her last location will be displayed on the Minimap. This will allow you to quickly catch the submarine due to her reverse speed being rather low. You can also force her underwater where she has to spend her oxygen supply and can't attack other ships. Submarines have a limited supply of oxygen which can only be replenished at the surface level, which is their most vulnerable position.When you spot a submarine, attack her with HE shells. Their blast wave has the potential to affect her at a certain distance of impact and deal serious damage.In future test iterations, other submarine countermeasures may be added. Although subs are effectively invisible - we're pretty sure this won't be an issue. Our spreadsheet informs us that it will be fine. That is why we're having to write this long paragraph to allay your fears and concerns that we're trying to squeeze this new class in for it's own sake to make a quick buck from the schmucks who are easily pleased. We're not. We aren't. Get that idea straight out of your heads.

 

Stay tuned for more details and let us know what you think. Beta testing to start soon - in a similar vein to the Rework Testing Process that was so ...erm.... successful. Hell, we'll ignore all of what you say anyway but at least you can play with the new toys!

 

 

For those who don't speak WG - a translation is above.

 

EDIT TO ADD - I offer professional translation services in most WG regional dialects.

 

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1 minute ago, Miessa3 said:

Well what if the detection is different if the sub is submerged or not.

I am fairly certain what they ment with better than DD concelament meant when submerged.

Nope! Undetectable, under. Very limited, submerged. And close but lower than DDs on surface. It was like so during Halloween and Gamescon. 

 

... Utterly broken concept. 

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subs will be the death of this game. you cant have a game about big gun warships and expect it to work well when you have carrier and subs; the two things that ended the era of big gun warships

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I am fairly neutral about their inclusion, although I do have a couple of observations/questions...

 

Limiting number of submarines per team to 1 or 2 is great in theory, but in practice I can see it just meaning just about every match has them in?

Can you imagine how frustrating it would be to hunt down a submarine as sole survivor on the red team!!!!!!????? Maybe we can include a limitation on total amount of time allowed underwater in a game!

Please can we allow CV's to spot submarines at any depth, even though they can't actively engage them (unless surfaced)? At least 'detected' by showing the 'icon on the minimap' they way it does after sonar ping?

 

And, slightly off-topic:

 

"We understand that videos are not every player’s preferred format, so we've duplicated the most popular questions and answers in text format."

 

^^ Thank you

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I guess the best damage result outcome will be without pre-live server participation.

Can't wait until the Subs are on the live server for "testing" :D

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