german battleships are not "viable"...

[LoveYouTooBuddy]

“We choose to go play German BBs and do the other things, not because it's easy, but because it's hard; because that will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win.” -  John F. Kennedy on WG German BBs, probably... 

[Bear__Necessities]

16 hours ago, Sunleader said:

 

I will take that as Permission to Reference your Stats. I hope you dont Mind.

 

Yep Saw them.

But thing is. Your DD Stats in General are Good.

 

See Mate.

I Filtered your DDs to only Show DDs with Minimum of 30 Battles so we get a Decent Batch of Battles. (Please Note. I usually would like to have a Batch of at least 50. Preferably 100. But the most Battles you have with a German DD is 33 so that was out.)

Then I sorted them by your Performance Rating in them.

 

And Guess what.

Your First German DD is only Rank 12 in your DD list. Its the Z46

Then the Z23 at Rank 19....

 

If German DDs are so Great then why is not of them in your Top 10 Performing DDs ?

Why are you not Playing them more ?

You have over 500 Games in Fujin. And in a few Others you got over 100.

You got over 50 Battles in a whole lot of other DDs.

 

You say German DDs are so Great. But you dont really seem to Enjoy Playing them.

Why is that ? :)

 

 

 

Lets stop Derailing this Topic with DD Talk.

Nobody says German DDs are Unplayable or that you cant make them Work.

But lets also Face Facts. German DDs are the Bottom of their Respective Tier.

If you can make a German DD work you can make any other Nations DD work even better.

Thats just how it is.

 

And if you have the Choice to Play a Fun DD like Yugumo which is Spotted 600m later and has 1.5km more Torpedo Range. Which got Higher DPS Output on her Guns as well as Higher Alpha Damage and Higher Accuracy on its Guns as well as having nearly Twice the Torpedo Damage. Then you will Play Yugumo and not Z46 whose only Redeeming Feature is its Hydro with 5km Range that allows you to Kill Noobs that despite having reached T9 dont know about German Hydro and thus Decide to Smoke 4km in front of you.

 

 

 

 

But why can’t I play for the challenge? Why do I have to pick the easy ship every time... there is a reason I got Neustrashimy, Benham and Friesland. I want a challenge. I want different ways to play. Also I will point out that o actually have far more games under German DD’s than that. Before the NTC came around as an idea and there were no lines to grind I made a 2nd account to kill Boredom with the game, have great fun in the German DD’s there also (Many_metal_fishes). The German DD’s are also the next line I will reset when I’ve the got the ones I’m doing now out the way.

 

My German DD’s May not have the high “numbers” but in the 1 that counts, winning, they are great.

 

As for German BB’s i like them. Not played them for a while. Mostly due to not being a BB main and new lines. But since then they have been buffed so are probably even better. Hell, I made FDG work pretty well and people slag her off all the time...

 

But I also like Emerald so maybe I’m just odd....

[Butterdoll]

20 hours ago, Sunleader said:

But nowdays everyone knows exactly what happens.

So the Special Tricks have 0 Gameplay Value anymore.

And as German BBs suck at the Base Values the Enemy always knows he can just Face the German BB directly

But that is not german BBs fault.

German BBs are the only brawl line (hold on RUBBs) , I mean brawl back to back.

Apart from AMagi with a counterfeit turtleback, the IJN BBs are crap, useless at brawling, the same goes for US, French line, they are not brawlers and so on.

So, in an PVP environment the german ships may not be as "productive" as other lines in certain aspects.

But in Ops and PVE where there aren't "cowards" , they work just fine.

If there weren't as many shity BBs  at brawling like always were perhaps you wouldn't say what you just said.

Try doing the same thing you would do with a german bb with any other BB, and let me no what you found.

It's easier to a german BB to do a IJN BB job than the other way around. and the same goes for all the other lines with very few exceptions.

Germans BBs are being powercreeped my [edited].

WG implemented more brawling BBs lately, and that it's good, but they have to share the same treats.

 

that's the correct mind set

 

 

 

 

 

[H4d3zZz]

 

I for one really enjoy my bismarck and my tirpitz and i am sure that i will enjoy the tier 9 and 10 as well, specially when i finally manage to get ifhe for the secondaries  

[Sunleader]

6 hours ago, Butterdoll said:

But that is not german BBs fault.

German BBs are the only brawl line (hold on RUBBs) , I mean brawl back to back.

Apart from AMagi with a counterfeit turtleback, the IJN BBs are crap, useless at brawling, the same goes for US, French line, they are not brawlers and so on.

So, in an PVP environment the german ships may not be as "productive" as other lines in certain aspects.

But in Ops and PVE where there aren't "cowards" , they work just fine.

If there weren't as many shity BBs  at brawling like always were perhaps you wouldn't say what you just said.

Try doing the same thing you would do with a german bb with any other BB, and let me no what you found.

It's easier to a german BB to do a IJN BB job than the other way around. and the same goes for all the other lines with very few exceptions.

Germans BBs are being powercreeped my [edited].

WG implemented more brawling BBs lately, and that it's good, but they have to share the same treats.

 

that's the correct mind set

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is lol.

Because thats part of Balancing.

 

And this is a PvP Game.

Its useless to be Good in PVE where your not Competing against other Players.

 

Ships need to be Balanced in PvP. Not in PvE.

In PvE nobody cares if a Ship is a bit Over or Underpowered.

 

 

And Yes. There is a Reason why IJN BBs are usually the Second worst Place in the Statistics.

But thats beside the Point.

 

The Problem is WGs idea of Balancing.

German BBs have the Special Ability of Hydro and the Special Ability of Good Secondaries. And they have the Special Trait of Turtleback.

In Exchange however they got Inferior Firepower and on Top a Horrible Accuracy that was Nerfed into absolute Oblivion.

 

But not only does Hydro Require a Skilled Player to be of any use. And not only do the Good Secondaries need a 14 Point Captain to even be remotely useful.

 

Everyone by now also knows about these Abilities and Traits.

And if your Enemy knows you can autospot him 5km away even inside Smoke and that you will see Slow long Range Torps early. Then they can act accordingly.

If they know you got nearly 12km Secondary Range with pretty Strong Secondaries they can deal with that.

 

 

Now the much besung Turtleback is honestly said really useless. Because at the kind of Range where it Kicks in to make you Citadel Proof you wont get any Advantage of it.

The Advantage of not getting the Repair Penalty due to not being Citadelled is useless in this close Range. Cause at this Range you wont have the Time to use several Repairs anyways.

And the Advantage of being Citadel Proof at Short Range comes with a Tremendous Disadvantage.

While you end up with lots of Overpenetrations against Enemy BBs at Short Range. The Enemy BBs Shells get Stuck in your Citadel Turtleback and thus Count as Full Penetration.

Meaning while you get 1 Citadel and 2 Overpens with Gneisenau. The Nagato gets 6 Full Pens on you.

You go maybe 15k Damage to him. He however Deals 25k to you.....

 

 

At this Point the German BBs are Simply the Weakest in the Game.

A Skilled Player can make anything work of course.

But that wont change that the German BBs are Inferior at almost everything.

[CptBarney]

4 hours ago, H4d3zZz said:

 

I for one really enjoy my bismarck and my tirpitz and i am sure that i will enjoy the tier 9 and 10 as well, specially when i finally manage to get ifhe for the secondaries  

ifhe is getting nerfed i believe so i would wait for further developments before doing so.

[ColonelPete]

2 hours ago, Sunleader said:

And Yes. There is a Reason why IJN BBs are usually the Second worst Place in the Statistics.

Maybe you should look beyond Myogi...

[Linkaex]

Maybe they are powercrept but I still like to play the Gneisenau and Bismarck 

[Butterdoll]

3 hours ago, Sunleader said:

 

It is lol.

Because thats part of Balancing.

We just need more brawlers, they are too few, that could be part of balancing.

3 hours ago, Sunleader said:

 

And this is a PvP Game.

Its useless to be Good in PVE where your not Competing against other Players.

This is a game, period, a game with many modes, competing with others players it's just an aspect among more.

that's just your P.O.V.

In PVE you can brawl at will, in PVP, brawls are the exception .

WE definitely need more brawlers.

 

3 hours ago, Sunleader said:

 

Ships need to be Balanced in PvP. Not in PvE.

In PvE nobody cares if a Ship is a bit Over or Underpowered.

 

 

And Yes. There is a Reason why IJN BBs are usually the Second worst Place in the Statistics.

But thats beside the Point.

 

The Problem is WGs idea of Balancing.

the more ROF you have and the more volume of firepower you have the more squishy you are. the less ROF you have the... I think it's the general idea of balance

3 hours ago, Sunleader said:

German BBs have the Special Ability of Hydro and the Special Ability of Good Secondaries. And they have the Special Trait of Turtleback.

In Exchange however they got Inferior Firepower and on Top a Horrible Accuracy that was Nerfed into absolute Oblivion.

First of all Hydro it's not a special ability of the Germans, you can equip hydro in every ship that has the space for it , US ships RU ships, IJN ships and so on

3 hours ago, Sunleader said:

 

But not only does Hydro Require a Skilled Player to be of any use. And not only do the Good Secondaries need a 14 Point Captain to even be remotely useful.

There's no particular skills need it, hydro is great for the player, and for other players too. Will give an advance warning of  torps, very useful, especially in BBs and for the team.

Out spotting reds with hydro?

that's not the job for german BBs, even for lonely cruisers it's a risky job to do. 

3 hours ago, Sunleader said:

 

Everyone by now also knows about these Abilities and Traits.

And if your Enemy knows you can autospot him 5km away even inside Smoke and that you will see Slow long Range Torps early. Then they can act accordingly.

If they know you got nearly 12km Secondary Range with pretty Strong Secondaries they can deal with that.

the torps still will be detected if hydro's on .

Forcing the red with your presence it's also a thing

 

 

3 hours ago, Sunleader said:

 

At this Point the German BBs are Simply the Weakest in the Game.

A Skilled Player can make anything work of course.

But that wont change that the German BBs are Inferior at almost everything.

I still favour the German BBs over every other type of BB. I like them

the most important thing in a PVP game is knowing when to close the distance and when to not , when and where to use the strong points of the ship , Once you successfully established that, you are golden.

 

 

 

 

[DFens_666]

8 minutes ago, Butterdoll said:

We just need more brawlers, they are too few, that could be part of balancing.

 

BBs could brawl better if they would get better dispersion close range. Russian BBs have it. Its unholy what you can do at <10km

Yesterday in CBs f.e. Cossack tried to ambush me from behind an Island (me being Vladi). Cossack comes around *Slap* and that was a dead cossack. Im pretty sure, every other BB couldnt have killed him (i needed 5 out of 6 hits) or he would have gotten his torps of atleast. Or a few days ago, my clanmates in Discord "Balti is going for DFens" -> Blap the Balti through the Bow out of the water

Some actual ingame footage from russian BBs:

Spoiler

 

[kapnobathrac]

I find kremlin no1 with GK no 2 among BBs

 

firing angles on GK suck [edited]. If those got improved GK would be king. As it is it eats full pens easily 

[H4d3zZz]

5 hours ago, CptBarney said:

ifhe is getting nerfed i believe so i would wait for further developments before doing so.

Thx for the info. I am not really close at the moment so it will wait by itself anyway haha

[CptBarney]

1 minute ago, H4d3zZz said:

Thx for the info. I am not really close at the moment so it will wait by itself anyway haha

Fairplay.

 

you can watch dis in teh meantime!

 

make sure not to throw smoll pc outside window!

 

 

[Yedwy]

@OP The German BBs are stil viable, as long as you realize what they are and what they are good at and what they are not good at...

 

In simple terms:

1.Get close and personal with the red team, you are meant to be right behind your DDs when they advance to a cap, you wont miss from there

2.If you are not in sec range of an enemy you are not close enough (well at least for T8 and above)

3.Get even closer

4.CLOSER I SAID

5.You will die without a doubt

6.Take as many enemies with you to the Davy Jones locker as possible

[Butterdoll]

3 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

 

BBs could brawl better if they would get better dispersion close range. Russian BBs have it. Its unholy what you can do at <10km

Yesterday in CBs f.e. Cossack tried to ambush me from behind an Island (me being Vladi). Cossack comes around *Slap* and that was a dead cossack. Im pretty sure, every other BB couldnt have killed him (i needed 5 out of 6 hits) or he would have gotten his torps of atleast. Or a few days ago, my clanmates in Discord "Balti is going for DFens" -> Blap the Balti through the Bow out of the water

Some actual ingame footage from russian BBs:

  Hide contents

 

yeah, but that would murder CLs

He could have you, you know? that Cossack, did he exit hard cover?

In the other day I just blapped a Sinop with my Nurnberg (and i got reported) he ate two wave of torps.He didn't shot one shell

I have the t5, I know what they are capable, I can see the fun of... but...

but... I'm not quite sold yet to the RUBB charms.

I still prefer the KM ones.

they May not be as indestructible as the RUBBs, but the RUBBs can be quite soft a lot of the times.

 

 

[Butterdoll]

10 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

@OP The German BBs are stil viable, as long as you realize what they are and what they are good at and what they are not good at...

 

In simple terms:

1.Get close and personal with the red team, you are meant to be right behind your DDs when they advance to a cap, you wont miss from there

2.If you are not in sec range of an enemy you are not close enough (well at least for T8 and above)

3.Get even closer

4.CLOSER I SAID

5.You will die without a doubt

6.Take as many enemies with you to the Davy Jones locker as possible

yes, that is in theory,

getting closer, and closer but we end up seeing a lot of suicide doing that.

getting closer at the right time.

[DFens_666]

26 minutes ago, Butterdoll said:

yeah, but that would murder CLs

He could have you, you know? that Cossack, did he exit hard cover?

 

Yeah, as i said, he came around an island. He didnt have much choice tho.

 

As for the Cruisers: The solution would be, to make BBs much more inaccurate at longer ranges. I think its worse to devstrike Cruisers at >16 or more km, than blapping them out of the water at closerange. A lot of mechanics just make it "unreasonable" for BBs to push in:

- They have long range so they can reach pretty much hit anything without taking much risk (cruisers have a hard time hitting you if they even reach you and torps often dont have the range either)

- Close range results in more overpens because shells wont detonate in time

- Dispersion is not realiable enough at closer ranges except for russian BBs.

 

Its no wonder why a lot of BB players play the way they do... its just much more convenient for them, even if they lose more often (and then they still blame the team anyway)

[Yedwy]

29 minutes ago, Butterdoll said:

yes, that is in theory,

getting closer, and closer but we end up seeing a lot of suicide doing that.

getting closer at the right time.

Well you get a lot of suicidal DDs, even more those that will let you hang and fade out, but that is really something to accept in a German (or even Russian) BB really, tank a shitload of damage that will probably get you killed in the end but f the red plans at your flank, if you are not into that job you should choose some other line to play as any other line is better at mid and long range...

[Hopeless_Guppy]

21 hours ago, Captain_Breeze said:

BB's camping is just when they don't move from their spawn positions.

 

With the GK I move in with the fleet but have already planned an exit route if I'm getting burned too much. I then turn and heal and go back in to finish them off, that's when the secondary's come into their own.  

 

2

Großer Kurfürst

10

Germany

143

57.34%

1 500

92 485

 Not the best stats, but I have fun with her.

Oh cool that is ok then I do move from the spawn, and the promptly get stuck o the smallest rock on the map, lol

[Ace42X]

1 hour ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Yeah, as i said, he came around an island. He didnt have much choice tho.

 

As for the Cruisers: The solution would be, to make BBs much more inaccurate at longer ranges. I think its worse to devstrike Cruisers at >16 or more km, than blapping them out of the water at closerange. A lot of mechanics just make it "unreasonable" for BBs to push in:

- They have long range so they can reach pretty much hit anything without taking much risk (cruisers have a hard time hitting you if they even reach you and torps often dont have the range either)

- Close range results in more overpens because shells wont detonate in time

- Dispersion is not realiable enough at closer ranges except for russian BBs.

 

Its no wonder why a lot of BB players play the way they do... its just much more convenient for them, even if they lose more often (and then they still blame the team anyway)

TBH I think battleships should get better dispersion, but slower shell velocities and reworked pen levels (krupp?) to compensate.  This means you can still make use of their range in a meaningful sense, especially against immobile targets or potatoes who aren't evading, but won't hit anything evading at long range because they have all that time while the shells are in transit to get out of the way.

It encourages battleships to close the distance, because they're not penalised with "WTF, I put myself into danger and all I got was misses and overpens at <10km range?!?", and cutting down on the travel time is a meaningful reward for putting themselves in harms way.
Also, conversely, punishes camping battleships because an evading battleship can more reliably punish them with tight shells than they can punish a battleship which is evading their shells.  Makes flanking more worthwhile too, as accessing the back-row doesn't leave you with "well yes, now I have a good angle on them and have negated their cover, but my shells are still going to scatter into the water all around them ineffectually if the dice don't roll well".

 

Could maybe build that improved dispersion into Detection Mod, which AFAIK is currently near-useless, if we wanted to restrict this to higher tiers and not have ridiculously slow-but-accurate shells being fired from 16km on low tier battleships.

Improved secondaries might help a bit too, TBH.  Normalising the range and ManualSec deviation a bit so "I'm inside torp range danger zone, so you're inside my secondary danger zone" would make closing distance on DDs and CLs more rewarding and make attempts to bully them off the CP something vaguely worth considering rather than the exclusive province of T7+ ships with loads of CO points and very specific secondary batteries onboard.

Increasing the arming-time for ship-torps could help too, instead of making a smoke cloud a "don't come within 12km" no-go zone for minutes at a time.

[lossi_2018]

Moment I switched to PEF in ranked I went straight to first rank in my best stretch ever. I have no idea if it was the opposition (the teams were awful per usual) but the ship carried almost all the games I played after rank 5. Sec Built (with Bism captain), it wasn't all fun but it was a good performance by a forgotten ship that managed to stay afloat most of the times despite getting focused by every single cv I encountered. Guns are still meh, dispersion is atrocious but if you wiggle it here and there right and get close ship is a workhorse. It needs a good captain (a very good captain) but it did the job so I will not say anything else. My general feeling is German ships due to their particular playstyle are not very compatible with high tiers or uptiered if u prefer. Situational but if the moment is right they can really put out some superb games, unfortunately that is not the current meta. Cheers :)

[Migantium_Mashum]

I have every German BB from Tier 5 (Konig) to Tier 10 (Grosser Kurfurst) (Including all the premiums) I notice dispersion has changed for the worse.

 

I favour Bayern over PEF in ranked because PEF AP behaves like a ping pong ball unless you're firing at Cruisers.

 

 

Scharnhorst still performs very well if you forget the fact you have a third turret aft and concentrate on your front turrets only.. In my opinion you must attack at a slight angle and enemy shells bounce off you.

 

Tirpitz and Bismarck guns under perform now in comparison to when I got them but their secondaries still perform well from 10.6km.

 

FDG guns again under performs at distances over 15km but in close they still sting and give me some success with citadel hits, secondary builds are still good however...

 

I haven't played my GK for a while but with a secondary build she plays well for me (or did).

 

On every BB that I have from Tier 7 or higher I have a level 19 Commander on with manual secondary fire control..

 

 

[ColonelPete]

6 minutes ago, Migantium_Mashum said:

I have every German BB from Tier 5 (Konig) to Tier 10 (Grosser Kurfurst) (Including all the premiums) I notice dispersion has changed for the worse.

The dispersion did not change at all (except for the communicated Sigma changes).

[xXDa7nielXx]

Now since this is my new back up account in case i get hacked again and smurf to play lower BR without ruining my stats, here's my little unfiltered opinion gathered over 5 years of playing each nation with friends on EU and NA servers on both accounts i.e low and high tier matches.

 

Wargaming has turned into crap and that is a fact. 

 

The reason why germany is seriously underpowered in WOWs (at least when it comes to Cruisers, DDs and Battleships) is the same as in Warthunder. It's because WG is biased just like Gajin. They think that making german ships anywhere near as powerful or "good" as they were IRL and giving them a fair chance at competing with other nations ships would be "Supporting Nazis" (which is obviously [edited] since this would never be the case). If they wanted or even tried to make german ships anywhere as they were IRL and fairly balanced so they can compete with other nations but not stamp them to dust, they could have easily done that (because german ships in ww2 were on paper and in battle better, but had by far far less numbers than the allied). The main issues with german ships in WOWs rn is their ridiculously low range and weak canons compared to ships of other nations, sometimes in even lower tiers than the opposing german ship. Pair this with the fact that german ships in ww2 had almost always the superior reach due to superior radar technology which was by far more advanced and complex compared to what the allied at the time had should give you a good picture of the "work" WG put into german ships (if they put any work into them at all). Best example of this would be the Koenig and Bayern which both get outranged by tier 4 cruisers of almost every nation. Realistically those cruisers couldnt reach nor scratch either of the two ships but in WOWs they can spam their rounds across the map and cripple both battleships to [edited] extends. If Wargaming wanted to generally balance out the game and make it fair for all sides, they would have to:

 

-Nerf the turnspeed of destroyers, cruisers and battleships.

-Boost the damage output of certain nations by lowering reload time of increasing dpr.

-Remove planes loaded with heavy as [edited]torpedoes or bombs zooming across the map.

-Increase the range at which your flak fires at incoming planes.

-Increase the distance at which planes drop torpedoes or bombs (since realistically no plane would get that close without being shredded to pieces)

-and last but not least FIX THEIR GOD DAMN PLAYER BALANCING.

 

Even worse than having useless ships on your team is having equally useless team mates command them.

 

Also befor some dumb WG [edited] sucking fanboy come running along asking for statistics, make them yourself but dont think anyone will believe you. The only good statistic is the one you faked yourself and with WOWs most statistics about ships performance are rigged and simply BS taking thins or leaving things out of their calculation that are crucial.

[ColonelPete]

6 minutes ago, xXDa7nielXx said:

Wargaming has turned into crap and that is a fact. 

 

The reason why germany is seriously underpowered in WOWs (at least when it comes to Cruisers, DDs and Battleships) is the same as in Warthunder. It's because WG is biased just like Gajin. They think that making german ships anywhere near as powerful or "good" as they were IRL and giving them a fair chance at competing with other nations ships would be "Supporting Nazis" (which is obviously [edited] since this would never be the case). 

Yeah, facts