Friesland: before you spend your FXP

[Redcap375]

27 minutes ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

I don't think it needs a buff, but a sidegrade. Better concealment for less fire chance.

 

We have to be very careful.

 

There is a reason the Kurf isn't Conq level concealment.  Because no one wants a full brawling ship in your face before you know what's going on with no time to react in the open. 

 

Quote

Make it less attractive to sit in the back and spam HE and give it the tools to contest caps. 

 

Again, be careful mate.

 

It's trying to promote a different play-style (like the kaba and Mordor).  Not the next OP cap contester, no one wants that. 

 

The Friesland is perfectly good at what it does. 

 

If you want a bit of everything then grind the Groz/Gearing line. If you want a torp boat grind the Shimmy line. If you want a DD hunter then the RN/German line. If you want a lite light cruiser then grind the Harra and Kaba line and if you want to kill cruisers grind the Kleber line. 

 

Too many people want to have their cake and eat it. Those ships that do are OP.

 

 

[HMS_Kilinowski]

2 minutes ago, Redcap375 said:

 

We have to be very careful.

 

There is a reason the Kurf isn't Conq level concealment.  Because no one wants a full brawling ship in your face before you know what's going on with no time to react in the open. 

 

 

Again, be careful mate.

 

It's trying to promote a different play-style (like the kaba and Mordor).  Not the next OP cap contester, no one wants that. 

I didn't want to write it, cause I see all Fries owners jumpin on my face with their buttocks, but there are obvious ways of balancing that out, e.g. lowering RoF. It's probably more of a psychological thing anyway. Like with those caps that have an island in the middle, i know the Fries sneaks up behind that, I don't care for my better concealment but I get the hell out of there.

[Redcap375]

6 minutes ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

I didn't want to write it, cause I see all Fries owners jumpin on my face with their buttocks, but there are obvious ways of balancing that out, e.g. lowering RoF. It's probably more of a psychological thing anyway. Like with those caps that have an island in the middle, i know the Fries sneaks up behind that, I don't care for my better concealment but I get the hell out of there.

 

Write what you feel is right mate. As long as it's something you truly believe, not just for the sake of arguments which happens alot. 

 

The Friesland cant directly damage BB's.  It really realises on fire to do the majority of damage when saturation kicks in, just like the Smol. You lower the fire chance and they are even more of a wet carrot against them. They are damage over time ships like RN CV's and like them, relies on fire damage (carpet bombs). Regarding cruisers, correct me if i'm wrong but even with IFHE it cant pen 27mm of armour. It needs fire  to do the damage, even more so with no torps. 

 

I presume alot of captains also take DE with it including flags ? I would. So fire is it's weapon, you cant lower that to be honest. 

 

All i would do is increase it's HP in some way. Just so it can deal more with being out spotted alot more.  

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

2 minutes ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

I didn't want to write it, cause I see all Fries owners jumpin on my face with their buttocks, but there are obvious ways of balancing that out, e.g. lowering RoF. It's probably more of a psychological thing anyway. Like with those caps that have an island in the middle, i know the Fries sneaks up behind that, I don't care for my better concealment but I get the hell out of there.

The issue with cap contesting is not it's only it's conceilment, but any exchange will result in permanent damage that is unrecoverable. This causes good Frieslands captains to be very precise in picking their battles and bad ones to fail miserably. You can't afford any mistakes or surprises. Conceilment will help a bit, but especially the lack of any heal or massive HP makes it a reactive ship, lowering ROF will only add to that problem and not help captains contest caps without the risk of permanently breaking their ship. Any damage sticks and will force it to be played even more careful. As long as that's the case, Frieslands will be played at range more succesfully.

 

1 minute ago, Redcap375 said:

 

The Friesland cant directly damage BB's.  It really realises on fire to do the majority of damage when saturation kicks in, just like the Smol. You lower the fire chance and they are even more of a wet carrot against them. They are damage over time ships like RN CV's and like them, relies on fire damage (carpet bombs). Regarding cruisers, correct me if i'm wrong but even with IFHE it cant pen 27mm of armour. It needs fire  to do the damage, even more so with no torps. 

 

I presume alot of captains also take DE with it including flags ? I would. So fire is it's weapon, you cant lower that to be honest. 

 

All i would do is increase it's HP in some way. Just so it can deal more with being out spotted alot more.  

I played a IHFE build (can pen 25 mm) and that's not good enough at that tier currently. Too many instances where fire does a way better job on anything but carriers because magic. I currently run a DE and ROF build which I'm happy with.

 

You know what I would like to try? An optional 7.5 km dd style radar in the slot of it's hydro. 

[Bear__Necessities]

2 hours ago, Redcap375 said:

You wanna go where the Mogaror isnt? Go find a cap.

Not my Mogador, I’m the King of the Caps 

[Redcap375]

45 minutes ago, Europizza said:

You know what I would like to try? An optional 7.5 km dd style radar in the slot of it's hydro. 

 

In your dreams pal 

 

But I am truly glad that Dutch ships are now in the game, it's massively deserved. 

[Animalul2012]

Free xp ships: Musashi has great guns but missoury gets radar so it can deal with destroyers and the credit potential is also increased!

Kronshtadt is just a sovietsky soyuz but with no armor, no special damage control, crappy dispersion at all ranges, crap HE, no overmatch ( apart from RN light cruisers) is a garbage ship!

Alaska:worsk when you get close 14km or less but at long ranges AP penetration drops way to much, shells are also quite slow and he is quite reliant and it gets graf spee disperion eclipse( unlike krontrash) this is a good ship when it gets close but if you are forced to snipe from 16-19km range then its pretty crappy too!

Azuma: I have this ship its armor is way to squishy, rudder shift is to slow, guns need better rate of fire but overall AP is reliant, HE is awesome, concealment is EH ( i play this ship with double rudder mod ) I would buff its reload of gave it 30mm deck armor!

Friesland: dont have it but from the looks of it, it is just another kronshtadt it struggles to do damage( i mean can this ship do damage in open water without smoke?) low HP, eats a lot of damage, no heal, NO TORPEDOES, 6.4 minimum concealment oh man!!! What does this ship have fast firing guns? Kitakaze has better guns with improved HE penetration and has torpedoes.

Friesland would have needed its concealment down to 6.1 or maybe 6.2km and needs a HEAL maybe improved HE pen but not like kitakaze improve it so it can pen 30mm armor when it is using IPHE! 

Overall I thing only Musashi and Missoury are the only truly worth it free xp ships, I like azuma because i can do damage from across all ranges but this does not mean it is a good ship if the enemy battleship RNG says YES then you are going to get one shoted( i got in ranked one shoted from a jean bart !)The rest kinda suck kronstrash is just garbage in my face, alaska is only good when it gets close but how often does that happen? And Friesland? there are better ships out there in the tech tree in fact this might be one of the worst t9 destroyers!

[HMS_Kilinowski]

5 minutes ago, Redcap375 said:

 

Write what you feel is right mate. As long as it's something you truly believe, not just for the sake of arguments which happens alot. 

 

The Friesland cant directly damage BB's.  It really realises on fire to do the majority of damage when saturation kicks in, just like the Smol. You lower the fire chance and they are even more of a wet carrot against them. They are damage over time ships like RN CV's and like them, relies on fire damage (carpet bombs). Regarding cruisers, correct me if i'm wrong but even with IFHE it cant pen 27mm of armour. It needs fire  to do the damage, even more so with no torps. 

 

I presume alot of captains also take DE with it including flags ? I would. So fire is it's weapon, you cant lower that to be honest. 

 

All i would do is increase it's HP in some way. Just so it can deal more with being out spotted alot more.  

But that is more of a buff, isn't it? This ship is supposed to die if going headlessly into brawls against the odds. I don't think players spam HE on BBs cause DD-hunting is that dangerous. They do, cause they can, it's easy and less risky. But balance-wise that ship is well-balanced for DD-hunting. No DD is supposed to annihilate any other DD in a 1 on 1 and come out with enough hp to do that twice. You can do that repeatedly if you play with the odds, take your chances and are a better player, alright, but not on an even basis. So that DD-brawling power is enough.

If people still stick to sitting in the back, that is staying in their comfort-zone, which means the rest of the team is well-beyond their comfort-zone. No ship is supposed to be sitting comfortably shoving popcorn in their mouth while the rest is making moves. If you want to play a DD, play a DD. Be in the game, not next to it. The properties of a ship should reflect that. You don't need fires to spam DDs and you don't need 3 fires on a BB that has done the right thing and is not sitting in the spawn point. So encourage the right play and discourage the wrong play.

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

6 minutes ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

No ship is supposed to be sitting comfortably shoving popcorn in their mouth while the rest is making moves.

Do you play tier X at all? 

[Spellfire40]

Shave of 0.2-0.3 of its fully stealth build conceilment and she would be fine. As she is she requires charging from behind a cover or charging a smoked up DD to do even the one thing she is truely good at. As for doing damage with HE vs non DDs.....there is such a thing as AP in your arsenal too and the arcs didnt seems to be that lazy. If you can deal the US DD Ap you should easyly deal with this ones....

[HMS_Kilinowski]

59 minutes ago, Europizza said:

Do you play tier X at all? 

 

1 hour ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

[...] supposed to be [...]

 

[FukushuNL]

9 hours ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

I know there is a set of ifs that may make such a DD shine. Maybe there is a CV i nteh game, mostly not. Maybe I saved some cruiser or the team from a flanking Musashi that would have crossfired. My impression is that a team expects certain ships to perform certain roles. If they don't that leaves a vacuum to be filled by enemy action. How many battles are lost, not by the enemy taking something, but by your team giving it away?

I don't think it needs a buff, but a sidegrade. Better concealment for less fire chance. Make it less attractive to sit in the back and spam HE and give it the tools to contest caps. The russian and french DDs and the Fries, as fun as they may be to play are not suited to perform a DD job in a team that needs a DD. The concept of the fast kiting Destroyer-leader has shown its limits in the russian DDs. WG should have learnt from it and given us the right tools. It's no conincidence the RN-DDs perform so well.

That's a bit of a thing, people only looking at the icon of a ship and assuming that icon comes with a set of abilities and stuff it can and is supposed to do. But this is in the game from day 1. Japanese battleships aren't tankers like the Americans and Germans and are ill sueted for pushing caps in early game as they will be burned and torped down by everything in side. And like you mentioned, Russian DDs aren't cap contesters. As such, there are a lot of ships that can't do the job well that people want them to do. Thus, a team has to work with what they do have and use the ships they got to what's suited best for them. 

 

In the end, you have to win the game, nowhere does it say by how much. People always seem to think that when you got the most caps at the start, the game is decided. I've seen so many "done" games get turned around in the end just because people couldn't play the long game. 

 

What I mean by this is that if you can't contest caps from the start as a single DD, that is not the end of the world. And I mean this in the most extreme case. Friesland isn't the only DD that has concealment issues when trying to contest caps and torps are 9/10 times mostly a deterrent and easily avoidable in smoke torping with hydros on. Also, most of the time you go for your torps while in a gunfight, you get slaughtered by the DD that just kept firing at you with his guns anyways, so Friesland will keep you from making that mistake. 

 

And if you are fully convinced Friesland is incapable of taking on other DDs 1 vs 1 (which it might, haven't played the ship yet) there are ways to mitigate that issue. In a 1 DD game there are 2 caps that aren't contested from the start by enemy DDs and in a multi DD game, just join up with a cap capable DD and wreck an enemy DD together, then move on to the next. The enemy won a cap and lost a DD. Wonder which will be more imortant for the remainder of the game (Could be both still, btw, though I put my money on the extra DD). 

 

And this is without all the randomness the aptly named random mode throws at you. What I want to say is you can't in a battle just put the opposing red and green ship icons against eachother and think they are equal. GK and Yamato aren't equal either and Moskva and Worchester, same thing. And there are twelve chances of these "missmatches" possible in each game. 

 

Still, after having said this all, maybe Friesland is still crap and just a handicap for the team, period. Just want to know for sure people taking every aspect in this game into consideration instead of just comparing ships one on one, because lots of ships would look crap in such a comparison while all ships (should be/)are balanced in a 12 vs 12 game with the current matchmaking in mind. If Friesland played correctly works overall while doing her part, she works as intended, even though players that want her to be something she's not might think otherwise. 

[HMS_Kilinowski]

4 minutes ago, FukushuNL said:

Still, after having said this all, maybe Friesland is still crap and just a handicap for the team, period. Just want to know for sure people taking every aspect in this game into consideration instead of just comparing ships one on one, because lots of ships would look crap in such a comparison while all ships (should be/)are balanced in a 12 vs 12 game with the current matchmaking in mind. If Friesland played correctly works overall while doing her part, she works as intended, even though players that want her to be something she's not might think otherwise. 

Wow, quite a wall of text. Hope you don't mind if I just stick with your main message. I agree with everything you wrote. I even think a Friesland will do fine contesting caps. My point, or rather one aspect of my point, was that Friesland will probably not be played according to its capabilities by most players, but according to the cliché attached to it, being the fire spammer. I think the decreasing winrate originates in players farming repairable BB-damage, where they could easily have taken on a DD, eliminated it, got out of it alive although at low hp and then fallen back to then farm BBs using the even faster spam, as AR kicks in. That is one side to the Fries, what the players do.

 

Another side is that Fries even exists. Yes, any team can and should take its line-up as given. Don't force a ship into a role it's not designed to fulfil or it will just vanish early. But that perspective - "the ship is given" - is only valid as you have chosen the ship and are in battle now. Prior to that, you, the player should reflect if you need that ship at all. My sentiment is that we have too many types of DDs that don't excel at scouting and contesting caps in the game as it is. I think the game didn't need the Friesland. Prior to your decision whether to buy the Friesland, was another decision, made by WG, to introduce that ship into the game. They shouldn't have done it. We already see too much bad and selfish play and the Friesland is not a bold statement to go for the objective. WG has wasted the opportunity to make such a statement. So now the ball is lying at your feet and you must decide, whether you want that ship. Not you as "you", rather the you as whoever reads that and tries to make up his mind.

 

So if you think you can play a Friesland in an integral role as part of a team, please do so by any means. Just please don't give into the temptation to be another fire-spammer 5 - 8 km behind the cap, pressing the F7-butten repeatedly, cause you cannot see a damn thing, while a wall of torps is flooding every ship around you.

[MMASK]

Friesland incapable of taking DDs one vs one???

Yesterday I managed to isolate Black (did 12k lost 8k), Chung Mu (did 11k lost 3k) and Akatsuki (did 9k lost 1k). Hydro helped with Black.

Got a Kraken with 1 solo cap and 2 assisted caps, also 32 plane kills.

Friesland can be played for the team, but you need to be aware of its limitations. Shooting HE from smoke for 2 minutes... not a good idea. Take care of radar ships, take care of low concealment DDs and where they might be.

And don't forget to shoot AP at broadsides, 2k damage every 1,4 seconds adds up nicely.

 

 

[__Helmut_Kohl__]

1 minute ago, MMASK said:

Friesland incapable of taking DDs one vs one???

 

Not sure if anyone said it like that.

If it gets close enough or has friendly spotting, Friesland can be a beast.

 

But it is also quite managable as an opponent.

Especially in a real gun-boat like Mogador.

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

The Friesland is anything but a selfish ship. If anything, her downside is she works best with other ships. Selfish players will fail in her, selfish teammates not working with her will result in her underperforming. You can't blame WG for creating a ship that excels in support, other then having pushed the game more and more into a self serving direction this last year by changing AA ranges,  radar, damage only focused CV's and other stuff I've forgotten already.

 

What I read in this topic is some that don't like the Friesland want her to be like the other destroyers, a 'real' destroyer. It's why players fail in the Friesland, lack of flexibility and or creative thinking. I commend WG for creating a ship that needs a different mindset, especially after what I consider one of the biggest mind numbing IQ draining changes of the game, the CV rework.

 

 

[Procrastes]

16 hours ago, Redcap375 said:

It [the Friesland] is trying to promote a different play-style (like the kaba and Mordor).  Not the next OP cap contester, no one wants that. The Friesland is perfectly good at what it does.  Too many people want to have their cake and eat it. Those ships that do are OP.

 

16 hours ago, Redcap375 said:

The Friesland cant directly damage BB's.  It really realises on fire to do the majority of damage when saturation kicks in, just like the Smol. You lower the fire chance and they are even more of a wet carrot against them. They are damage over time ships like RN CV's and like them, relies on fire damage (carpet bombs). Regarding cruisers, correct me if i'm wrong but even with IFHE it cant pen 27mm of armour. It needs fire  to do the damage, even more so with no torps. 

 

I presume alot of captains also take DE with it including flags ? I would. So fire is it's weapon, you cant lower that to be honest. 

 

All i would do is increase it's HP in some way. Just so it can deal more with being out spotted alot more.  

 

I haven't really played the Friesland enough to have a well considered opinion, but this would be my take as well, for now. 

 

Also, and slightly off-topic, I'd be happy to see the removal of the magical fire immunity of carriers, since I think that it is neither fun nor balanced (and this, by the way, is a well considered opinion). I'm not one of those who like to champion a single ship class to the exclusion of all else, but I do believe that any ship that manages to sneak or batter through the enemy lines and get some quality time alone with the enemy carrier, deserves a cookie for the effort. Since destroyer guns lack the alpha strike capability to swiftly take down a carrier, and since the carrier will in most cases be able to negate or at least postpone the threat from torpedoes simply by sailing the other way, fire used to be the valid counter play in such situations. With the removal of that, and with no torpedoes of her own, the Friesland is left to rely on spotting damage to deal with an enemy carrier.

 

Unless I'm mistaken, the flight decks of most high tier carriers are too well armoured to take direct damage from 120 mm shells (or am I wrong here?) It is certainly possible for those guns to deal direct damage to the carrier's superstructure, but that can be hard to hit at range, and once it's saturated that window of damage opportunity will be closed. This means that unless the carriers makes a misplay and exposes her broadside to penetrating AP shots at close range, she'll be able to weather destroyer gunfire almost indefinitely, all the while keeping up a steady (or maybe not so steady, but still) stream of bombers and rocket planes to wear the pursuing destroyer down. I question whether this is a reasonable state of affairs, with regards to game balance.

 

I'd like to make it clear that I'm not suggesting the fire immunity for carriers should be scrapped solely in order to cater to the Friesland. That would be silly. I'm seeing the fire immunity as a general problem with regards to how carriers are balanced in relation to all other ships and ship classes, with the Friesland being perhaps the most highly profiled of the latter due to her lack of a torpedo armament.

[Redcap375]

17 minutes ago, __Helmut_Kohl__ said:

 

Not sure if anyone said it like that.

If it gets close enough or has friendly spotting, Friesland can be a beast.

 

But it is also quite managable as an opponent.

Especially in a real gun-boat like Mogador.

 

This ^^^

 

Very Manageable and relying on the enemy DD to screw up.

 

No black should ever be loosing a one vs one fight with a Friesland if both players are equally good.

 

But again, it's not designed to do that! It's designed to work as a team and support.

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

9 minutes ago, __Helmut_Kohl__ said:

 

Not sure if anyone said it like that.

If it gets close enough or has friendly spotting, Friesland can be a beast.

 

But it is also quite managable as an opponent.

Especially in a real gun-boat like Mogador.

Yes it has been stated a few times. Some here can take a Friesland on any time even with lower tier destroyers. Until they meet one with a good captains in it probably.  

[Isoruku_Yamamoto]

So i'm in need of a bit of advise on the captain skills i think. 

 

Currently i have: 

- Preventive maintenance

- Last stand

- BFT

- Survivability expert

(9pt)

 

Now i'm in doubt whether i'll even take concealment expert at all, since im quite comfortable with the current concealment. 
But i don't think it needs AFT, i might want to take IFHE though. Preferably i'd only take 1 4pt skill, so i can go with DE, AR and PT on top of what i already have. 

 

Suggestions?
 

P.S. I have IFHE  on cossack which works pretty amazing, but then again im doing great damage with guns with Friesland already. Should be the same benefit though in terms of pen 

[__Helmut_Kohl__]

11 minutes ago, Isoruku_Yamamoto said:

So i'm in need of a bit of advise on the captain skills i think. 

 

Currently i have: 

- Preventive maintenance

- Last stand

- BFT

- Survivability expert

(9pt)

 

Now i'm in doubt whether i'll even take concealment expert at all, since im quite comfortable with the current concealment. 
But i don't think it needs AFT, i might want to take IFHE though. Preferably i'd only take 1 4pt skill, so i can go with DE, AR and PT on top of what i already have. 

 

Suggestions?
 

P.S. I have IFHE  on cossack which works pretty amazing, but then again im doing great damage with guns with Friesland already. Should be the same benefit though in terms of pen 

 

IFHE on 120mm guns will let you penetrate 25mm but not 27mm.

At T9 that becomes less useful, as there is not enough 25mm armor around to make it worth it.

 

I would generally rather go with CE as it allows you to close the distance to enemy DDs.

(It is not a true open-water gun-boat after all.)

[Yedwy]

I took PM-LS-DE-CE for now and plan on adding SE, BFT and last SI or maybee Vigilance possibly even some 2pt/1pt combo with last 3 points I ll see, have the range module on slot 6

[Leo_Apollo11]

Hi all,

 

As far as I can see almost all stats are dropping (except the damage - but that is not usually game winning stat)...

 

 

 

Leo "Apollo11"

[Redcap375]

PM, LS, SE,CE would be a solid start. Then DE then BFT.  The rest is up to the captain.  Personally i would use the Range MOD instead of AFT. 

 

 

[Isoruku_Yamamoto]

10 minutes ago, __Helmut_Kohl__ said:

 

IFHE on 120mm guns will let you penetrate 25mm but not 27mm.

At T9 that becomes less useful, as there is not enough 25mm armor around to make it worth it.

 

I would generally rather go with CE as it allows you to close the distance to enemy DDs.

(It is not a true open-water gun-boat after all.)

Cool, This is basically exactly what i was thinking, just wasnt very sure if i was correct about the reasoning behind it. 

I'll go with CE instead then, seems like a valid choice especially since i'm working towards a full-gun build. Should be fun when running into enemy DDs