Friesland: before you spend your FXP

[FukushuNL]

5 hours ago, Shaka_D said:

I'll stop using 'bad' as an argument if you stop using it's 'fine' or 'good enough as a reward ship'? Does that sound fair to you? See, it doesn't really work out does it? This is where the different opinions come into play, you can't call it different opinions if we can't voice them? For me, the ship is rubbish. You like it? That's fine with me, it's your xp and an easy ship for me to kill and certainly no threat to me even when I'm playing some lower tier dd's. Didn't say I want it to overperform, I want it to perform, plain and simple and for me it doesn't from what I've witnessed.

 

edit: Just charged one down in a bb. He sat in his smoke too scared to move, no torps to threaten me he just sat there shooting his pee shooters. I tanked and someone made him go 'boom' a few moments later. It's not a dd to me, lol, it's a dd / cruiser wannabe.

 

Take care matey.

 

I'm not getting into the discussion if Friesland is any good, as I can't play the game atm, but your edit just tells about a crap WoWs player in general. I think that's not how you play Friesland correctly, thus it doesn't help the discussion. Knowing your ship's weakness and using that and it's toolkit to play the ship right is how the game is played. Not popping smoke and sitting in it, leaving your weak spots exposed. 

 

To the general discussion, torps for me are mostly a scare tactic like flashy colors on poisonous animals, never really used to kill enemies, but's prolly because I'm not good at torp prediction. I love gunboats like the RN DDs more because of agility and reload speed. Knowing Friesland has no torps will be a big minus for her, no doubt about it, but as I mostly rely on guns in open water at max range, burning down everything in sight while actively dodging bullits (apart from trying to spot and contest caps ofc), do you guys think Friesland would do well for my playtyle? Of Is Jutland just the better gunboat on gun/agility/concealment front?

[tsounts]

Ship is fun and sexy as F!!!!

[valrond]

4 hours ago, Europizza said:

Great, you actually got my suggestion, well, kind of... Because, yes that sounds fair to me and is exactly why I suggested it ^^ That slight patronising tone is not chique though 

 

Now that we've both established that opinions differ and understand that players can completely fail at the Friesland because they want (or expect) it to be a 'real' destroyer (with alpha strike capacity i'm guessing as per your example), perhaps you can show me some statistcs that point to where the ship is broken. Or point it out in the stats I pulled up from wows-numbers. Damage (1st) - WR (7th) - Ships killed (6th) - XP (4th) - Planes destroyed (1st) - K/D (5th)? To me these point to a healthy normal ship so far, not a broken underperforming one. But I'm not really at home in WOWS statistcis I must admit, so if you're able to point out to me how these numbers add up to a bad performing ship I'm genuinely interested.

 

Could it be you're looking for confirmation of your bias that it's not a 'real' destroyer?

 

 

 

See the disparity between damage and WR? It is huge. You have the biggest damage dealer not making much of an effect in the games despite being played mostly by experienced players. I has similar WR to the Kitakaze, slightly worse, and that is a silver ship that anyone can get easily.

And there lies the problem that ship fails to make a difference as a DD cause it is pretty bad at what a DD main goals are: spotting, capping, area denial, and big alpha damage to enemy BBs. Sure, it can farm fire damage from BBs, but as we all know, that has very little effect in the actual match outcome.

[valrond]

4 hours ago, Europizza said:

Great, you actually got my suggestion, well, kind of... Because, yes that sounds fair to me and is exactly why I suggested it ^^ That slight patronising tone is not chique though 

 

Now that we've both established that opinions differ and understand that players can completely fail at the Friesland because they want (or expect) it to be a 'real' destroyer (with alpha strike capacity i'm guessing as per your example), perhaps you can show me some statistcs that point to where the ship is broken. Or point it out in the stats I pulled up from wows-numbers. Damage (1st) - WR (7th) - Ships killed (6th) - XP (4th) - Planes destroyed (1st) - K/D (5th)? To me these point to a healthy normal ship so far, not a broken underperforming one. But I'm not really at home in WOWS statistcis I must admit, so if you're able to point out to me how these numbers add up to a bad performing ship I'm genuinely interested.

 

Could it be you're looking for confirmation of your bias that it's not a 'real' destroyer?

 

 

 

See the disparity between damage and WR? It is huge. You have the biggest damage dealer not making much of an effect in the games despite being played mostly by experienced players. I has similar WR to the Kitakaze, slightly worse, and that is a silver ship that anyone can get easily.

And there lies the problem that ship fails to make a difference as a DD cause it is pretty bad at what a DD main goals are: spotting, capping, area denial, and big alpha damage to enemy BBs. Sure, it can farm fire damage from BBs, but as we all know, that has very little effect in the actual match outcome.

[Bellegar]

16 hours ago, Europizza said:

Grinding alone does not justify earning ships that overperform either.

NTC and Ohio say hi

 

Spoiler

(yes I know it's still in testing and a lot can change, no need to charge me down for preemptively rioting random forumites)

 

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

3 hours ago, valrond said:

See the disparity between damage and WR? It is huge. You have the biggest damage dealer not making much of an effect in the games despite being played mostly by experienced players. I has similar WR to the Kitakaze, slightly worse, and that is a silver ship that anyone can get easily.

And there lies the problem that ship fails to make a difference as a DD cause it is pretty bad at what a DD main goals are: spotting, capping, area denial, and big alpha damage to enemy BBs. Sure, it can farm fire damage from BBs, but as we all know, that has very little effect in the actual match outcome.

Yeah i noticed that. So it's better at farming BB damage then any other DD out there despite the lack of alpha.

 

Look i get that it is not a 'real' DD and that you dont like it because of that. The disparity and seeing in matches when and where it fails tells me a part of it's current players are struggeling with how to play it. Most likely because they try to play it as their regular DD's and fail at it miserably. Its very likely players simply fail to adapt to it due to the nature of our player base. You might be assuming players with lots of FXP are in general great players, and as we all know looking at tier X matches, who are players that are able to grind basically, thats not nessecerily the case.

 

If it turns out the rest of the values will descrease over time like we expect, i'd be more then happy to take some buffs to make it less hard work 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

So to get her or not... I dunno. 

Thinking hard about it. Going to buy her with cash however. Now is she worth it? 

 

Is she at all anti DD or mostly just a support? 

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

6 hours ago, FukushuNL said:

 

I'm not getting into the discussion if Friesland is any good, as I can't play the game atm, but your edit just tells about a crap WoWs player in general. I think that's not how you play Friesland correctly, thus it doesn't help the discussion. Knowing your ship's weakness and using that and it's toolkit to play the ship right is how the game is played. Not popping smoke and sitting in it, leaving your weak spots exposed. 

 

To the general discussion, torps for me are mostly a scare tactic like flashy colors on poisonous animals, never really used to kill enemies, but's prolly because I'm not good at torp prediction. I love gunboats like the RN DDs more because of agility and reload speed. Knowing Friesland has no torps will be a big minus for her, no doubt about it, but as I mostly rely on guns in open water at max range, burning down everything in sight while actively dodging bullits (apart from trying to spot and contest caps ofc), do you guys think Friesland would do well for my playtyle? Of Is Jutland just the better gunboat on gun/agility/concealment front?

The Jutland might still be your preferred ship, as the Friesland doesn't exactly play like you describe, RU style due to the lack of heal. The UK DD's are better at disengaging due to their smoke and has the scare warning colors . Friesland has double rainbow colors actually. Friesland is a very odd duck. I'd say her main trait is being a very good support ship more then anything else which is probably why I like it.

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

16 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

So to get her or not... I dunno. 

Thinking hard about it. Going to buy her with cash however. Now is she worth it? 

 

Is she at all anti DD or mostly just a support? 

She's not anti DD. She can wreck havoc but it can come at a hefty price. I've deleted or crippled any type of destroyers I've encountered so far. But lost damage is permanent, which makes it very important to know when to pick your battles.

 

I wouldn't be sailing her if she was cash only.

[Redcap375]

3 hours ago, Europizza said:

Yeah i noticed that. So it's better at farming BB damage then any other DD out there despite the lack of alpha.

 

Harra?

 

There is another example of a DD that isn't really. For me personally, it's in-between the 2. It's neither a Light cruiser or an out-right DD. However, the Harra doesn't have to JUST rely on pure fire damage (and superstructure hits) as it can pen 32mm of BB armour. Not only that, but it's got torps (and heavy hitting ones) WITH reload.  That is a threat to any target as well as 8 fast firing guns. 

 

Not only that (lol) but it out spots the Friesland!!!!!  

 

So when you have a game with say 2 dd's on each team, the more DD it is (like a Groz, Daring, Geraing ect) will have more of an advantage IMHO.

 

Personally, I don't like having 2 Harra/Frieslands in my team if the enemy has say 2 Z52's or 2 daring because i know actually capping things will be a pain and a up hill struggle.  I know that the MAJORITY of these players will play more like a light cruiser with them which is great, but not when you have dedicated DD's up against you.

 

You know they will be stand offish and throw HE everywhere which is great if you have cruisers and BB's in the game, but not when your team is constantly being out-spotted by their DD's and getting pushed further back. 

 

The Harra is in the top 3 tier 10 dd's for damage output, obviously. But it's not on the top 3 regarding WR. 

 

The Friesland is the same kettle of fish.  Damage alone doesn't win games. 

 

Nutshell

 

Please don't think i think it's a weak ship.  It's really not. I personally think it's a fun ship that is balanced and credit to WG to make it like that. 

 

However, The top 4 DD's at tier 9 only have 2000 average damage between them. When you put those same 4 DD's in WR, the Friesland falls from the top 4 spot into 8th! IMHO it's becuase it's not a out and out DD and cant effect games as such.

 

Damage does not win games. Boy i sound like a broken record. 

 

The Friesland has it's place in the game and played by good players it's good.  This ship will be great when subs enter the game.

 

Quote

Look i get that it is not a 'real' DD and that you dont like it because of that. The disparity and seeing in matches when and where it fails tells me a part of it's current players are struggeling with how to play it. Most likely because they try to play it as their regular DD's and fail at it miserably.

 

Precisely.  That is one major reason, people play them like an out and out DD and get murdered.

However, the pressure these DD's captains have to act like DD's is quite heavy when you have your team screaming at you to act like a DD! Spamming away behind the nearest cruiser isn't going to win you many friends i'm afraid. What good is that if the enemy have 3 caps? with 3 caps, your team starts to flap and do more stupid stuff trying to get them back, if the points don't run out anyway.

 

I had a Le Fantasque behind me the whole game last night, i constantly pinged him on the map to move, spot, torp, do something that isn't trying to set fire to a Yam from max range that he couldn't pen anyway. You know what ship i was in? A Des? Chappy? Nope, a Mass...I was holding a whole flank with a BB in front of a DD dodging torps left right and centre with no spotter in sight ....How &%(*(%$&* is that! 

Anyway....

 

The Friesland is great at what is does, no doubt and CAN take caps, but it's always going to be handicapped (quite a bit IMHO) doing it.

 

It needs a slight HP increase IMHO or a heal to encourage attacking play.  Come on, being out spotted, no torps, no heal and no speed boast doesn't keep you in the battle for long does it? Well the ones i've seen anyway. But overall, and that is the most important thing, its balanced against what it's designed to do. 

[Redcap375]

4 hours ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

Is she at all anti DD or mostly just a support? 

 

Support. That doesn't make her bad as she is very good at doing that with Defensive AA and fast firing fire starting guns. 

 

She simply lacks concealment, torps, speed boast AND heal to be a DD hunter IMHO. 

 

You will be relying on the enemy DD to really screw up which is possible with some of the playerbase 

 

I actively hunt them in the Groz for example. We might bust each other up but i will always be sailing away (Heal, Speed and HP im afrade) with him sinking. I can get 2 banks of torps out on her before she even knows im going to open up on her with guns.  Having a gun fight AND dodging or worrying about torps is not ideal. it has no sucker punch that torps can div out.

 

Plus, being out spotted means that your going to receive incoming fire even before engaging the enemy dd. A good salvo of cruiser HE auto puts you at a disadvantage against any DD your trying to face/find.  Don't just think of a 1 vs 1 fight. 

 

But please don't judge the Friesland on that, it's not her intended role. 

 

Trust me, Friesland players will be laughing when Subs come out, mark my words. 

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

31 minutes ago, Redcap375 said:

Damage alone doesn't win games. 

 

Damage does not win games. Boy i sound like a broken record. 

 

Right. Good players do. No one here including me is saying her damage is winning games. I'm not a Friesland sales rep. I'm not here to be right, I'm here sharing my personal experiences in her so far to assist anyone interested. If it turns out most of the players can't do well in her then by all means let WG boost her. 

 

I have to get back to work. I'll suffice by reposting my first impression, to help anyone interested to make in informed decision.

 

[__Helmut_Kohl__]

1 hour ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

Is she at all anti DD or mostly just a support? 

 

If no1 is spotting/radaring for you and the enemy DDs are not firing first, it will be tough.

But in the chaos of Random battles, it is usually not that hard to find enemy DD targets, even in Mogador etc.

 

Bad concealment without torps or speed can force you into a reactive role though, if you are not in a division.

[Procrastes]

2 hours ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

So to get her or not... I dunno. 

Thinking hard about it. Going to buy her with cash however. Now is she worth it? 

 

Is she at all anti DD or mostly just a support? 

She's not anti-Black at any rate, I can tell you that for free. I had the misfortune to end up against a Black the first time* I took the Friesland into battle, and he just smoked up and then took me apart with assistance from his team mates. I got in a few shots in return but not enough to make a difference. I should have just run away, but I not sure I would have made it anyway, since I had at least one and a half kilometre to go before getting out of radar range.

 

That said, I have no regrets about buying the Friesland. By all accounts, she's got that "unique-but-not-op" flavour that I appreciate in premium ships. I'm going to try to focus on the support role when I take her out next, I guess, which goes against my instincts when I'm in a destroyer - but hey, never too old to learn new tricks, right? I probably won't be taking her into many more ranked battles, though, since I'd probably feel a bit bad about not filling the cap contender role if I'm the only destroyer on the team. I'm also looking forward to a review of the ship from the esteemed Little White Mouse.

 

* The fact that this is also the only time I've so far taken the Friesland into battle should probably be taken into account here, although it might be balanced out a bit by the fact that I've got a fair number of battles in other gunboat destroyers under my belt.

[__Helmut_Kohl__]

It is funny to annihilate cocky Frieslands in Mogador, as they usually overestimate their effective DPM output. 

[Procrastes]

6 minutes ago, __Helmut_Kohl__ said:

It is funny to annihilate cocky Frieslands in Mogador, as they usually overestimate their effective DPM output. 

Yeah, I can see how you'd think so. That Black I mentioned in post #314 above, had a pretty good time as far as I could tell!

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

19 minutes ago, __Helmut_Kohl__ said:

It is funny to annihilate cocky Frieslands in Mogador, as they usually overestimate their effective DPM output. 

^^ The Friesland is not for lovers of rooster or swingers of sausage.

[HMS_Kilinowski]

I am being less and less impressed by the Frieslands I encounter. Their best use is imo in at least double-DD divisions, where she sits in the back, let's the other DD spot and spams HE or uses its dpm to help the other DD put down any enemy DD.

In randoms and solo, she is depending too much on the team. She is a scary opponent at the start of the match. That is her capital, the fear of other DDs to come close to her, which keeps them away and allows Friesland to dominate an area of the map. The simple approach is to not engage her 1 on 1 but outspot her and let other ships reduce her HP pool to a more manageable level. In the end every DD is only as much gunboat as his damage output and damage input allow her to be. A Friesland on 6k health turns from hunter into hunted and even a good Yugumo captain can go into a 1 on 1 and finish her.

 

I just find the concept less appealing. Most DDs can go into a fight and if their hp pool runs low they can retreat, stay alive and become a pesky torp boat. They still can impact the game. the Friesland can only try to sit behind islands or in smoke and hope it's not rushed. Mostly I feel a Friesland is doing a CLs job, while not doing a DDs job costs the team the game. 15k damage on enemy DDs is worth more than 50k on BBs.

[Redcap375]

10 minutes ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

I am being less and less impressed by the Frieslands I encounter. Their best use is imo in at least double-DD divisions, where she sits in the back, let's the other DD spot and spams HE or uses its dpm to help the other DD put down any enemy DD.

In randoms and solo, she is depending too much on the team. She is a scary opponent at the start of the match. That is her capital, the fear of other DDs to come close to her, which keeps them away and allows Friesland to dominate an area of the map. The simple approach is to not engage her 1 on 1 but outspot her and let other ships reduce her HP pool to a more manageable level. In the end every DD is only as much gunboat as his damage output and damage input allow her to be. A Friesland on 6k health turns from hunter into hunted and even a good Yugumo captain can go into a 1 on 1 and finish her.

 

I just find the concept less appealing. Most DDs can go into a fight and if their hp pool runs low they can retreat, stay alive and become a pesky torp boat. They still can impact the game. the Friesland can only try to sit behind islands or in smoke and hope it's not rushed. Mostly I feel a Friesland is doing a CLs job, while not doing a DDs job costs the team the game. 15k damage on enemy DDs is worth more than 50k on BBs.

 

Well put and i agree with most of that. 

[Redcap375]

1 hour ago, __Helmut_Kohl__ said:

It is funny to annihilate cocky Frieslands in Mogador, as they usually overestimate their effective DPM output. 

 

And i love to smash Mogador's with a Groz when their reload booster runs out. That things lives off it against DD's, without it get's owned in a knife fight. 

 

You wanna go where the Mogaror isnt? Go find a cap.

[HMS_Kilinowski]

7 minutes ago, Redcap375 said:

Well put and i agree with most of that. 

Well if you think about it. Yesterday I got a lucky shot on a Musashi in my own Musashi. Took it for 40k in one salvo. It ignored me, so I did 80k in 3 salvos and killed it. I could never kill a DD in 3 salvos and even a Fries will take some time to burn down a Musashi. I don't need a DD to do a BBs job. A team works on the basis of rock-paper-scissors. The MM tries to maintain that by having an even distribution of classes. A ship that sneaks a different class into a battle, screws up that MM. You can have a DD playing like a light cruiser, but then it must do a hell of a job to overcompensate the flexibility of the enemy team, having one more real DD.

So dutch fries sit in smoke pew-pewing away, while all the caps turn red

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

Wait. I agree. It's crap. WG please buff this piece of garbage already 

[__Helmut_Kohl__]

22 minutes ago, Redcap375 said:

And i love to smash Mogador's with a Groz when their reload booster runs out. That things lives off it against DD's, without it get's owned in a knife fight. 

 

You wanna go where the Mogaror isnt? Go find a cap.

 

It is a T9 and Udaloi/Tashkent only have slighty more DPM but much worse alpha.

Sure they have the heal, but Mogador has the reload booster.

 

What makes Mogador so great though, is the AP performance against bigger ships.

[FukushuNL]

40 minutes ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

Well if you think about it. Yesterday I got a lucky shot on a Musashi in my own Musashi. Took it for 40k in one salvo. It ignored me, so I did 80k in 3 salvos and killed it. I could never kill a DD in 3 salvos and even a Fries will take some time to burn down a Musashi. I don't need a DD to do a BBs job. A team works on the basis of rock-paper-scissors. The MM tries to maintain that by having an even distribution of classes. A ship that sneaks a different class into a battle, screws up that MM. You can have a DD playing like a light cruiser, but then it must do a hell of a job to overcompensate the flexibility of the enemy team, having one more real DD.

So dutch fries sit in smoke pew-pewing away, while all the caps turn red

Meh, dunno if you can look at it so black and white. So it took you 2 minutes/4 salvos to take down that Musashi. And that's because you got in some shots at perfect angles. In the meanwhile, while you were doing nothing and were reloading, the other Musashi could blab away a cruiser teanmate of yours. All the while an enemy CV could burn/torp you down. A Friesland could burn down at least as much as a salvo of your Musashi (if not more) while giving you AA cover, so that your cruisers have a better chance to survive. That way you can help take down other enemy BBs and Cruisers and your cruiaers could go DD hunting. Somewhere that minus will be turned into a plus. I dunno if that plus will be positive enough the mayority of the time, but it's not as black and white as you show it to be. 

[HMS_Kilinowski]

4 minutes ago, FukushuNL said:

Meh, dunno if you can look at it so black and white. So it took you 2 minutes/4 salvos to take down that Musashi. And that's because you got in some shots at perfect angles. In the meanwhile, while you were doing nothing and were reloading, the other Musashi could blab away a cruiser teanmate of yours. All the while an enemy CV could burn/torp you down. A Friesland could burn down at least as much as a salvo of your Musashi (if not more) while giving you AA cover, so that your cruisers have a better chance to survive. That way you can help take down other enemy BBs and Cruisers and your cruiaers could go DD hunting. Somewhere that minus will be turned into a plus. I dunno if that plus will be positive enough the mayority of the time, but it's not as black and white as you show it to be. 

I know there is a set of ifs that may make such a DD shine. Maybe there is a CV i nteh game, mostly not. Maybe I saved some cruiser or the team from a flanking Musashi that would have crossfired. My impression is that a team expects certain ships to perform certain roles. If they don't that leaves a vacuum to be filled by enemy action. How many battles are lost, not by the enemy taking something, but by your team giving it away?

35 minutes ago, Europizza said:

Wait. I agree. It's crap. WG please buff this piece of garbage already 

I don't think it needs a buff, but a sidegrade. Better concealment for less fire chance. Make it less attractive to sit in the back and spam HE and give it the tools to contest caps. The russian and french DDs and the Fries, as fun as they may be to play are not suited to perform a DD job in a team that needs a DD. The concept of the fast kiting Destroyer-leader has shown its limits in the russian DDs. WG should have learnt from it and given us the right tools. It's no conincidence the RN-DDs perform so well.