Stat Based MM

[Bear__Necessities]

No. In short because everyone will even out to a 50% WR meaning crap players will then still be getting stomped on by good players. Stat based MM does not work in almost every PvP game ever made.

[Leo_Apollo11]

Hi all,

 

Guys... just that you get some perspective...

 

I have "MatchMaking Monitor", "MatchMaking Monitor BETA" and "Potato Alert"... if you only knew that in most "Random" games out of 24 players there are just 1-2-3-4 with overall WinRate above 50% in general?

 

 

Leo "Apollo11"

 

 

P.S.

I never disclose the info to team(s) - this is only for me (and my DIV clanmates)...

[Dragnorak]

26 minutes ago, Leo_Apollo11 said:

Hi all,

 

Guys... just that you get some perspective...

 

I have "MatchMaking Monitor", "MatchMaking Monitor BETA" and "Potato Alert"... if you only knew that in most "Random" games out of 24 players there are just 1-2-3-4 with overall WinRate above 50% in general?

 

 

Leo "Apollo11"

 

 

P.S.

I never disclose the info to team(s) - this is only for me (and my DIV clanmates)...

 

Seriously? I'm going to run that to see for myself. 

[MAD_3R_Marauder]

2 hours ago, mtm78 said:

And how does average player become a good player? Watching flamu on twitch? He can't see good players in his bracket showing how it's done, I see this as going to prevent a lot of players to actually GIT GUD and learn the game. They will be content in their little bracket below, and I dread the new player who comes in and thinks that gameplay is what he should copy

There can still be a good spread within a single bracket (in my example from -20% to +20% of average base-xp) and of course, the bracket could be made wider too.

 

You got a point with bad/new players only playing bad/new players, but I think you're selling new players short here (well, those with the potential to become average/good ones, anyway)

 

Those who would learn by playing (and losing badly) vs. good players, would (IMO), still improve, (you show broadside and get slapped, you sail right into a spread of torps, you die - that kind of stuff happens in low-tier, with, supposedly, new, inexperienced players too) while those not improving wouldn't improve anyway (in German, we call it "lern-resistent", learning-resistant)

 

I might point to MWO which has a very similar "ranking" system - and the tier-1 (top) players learned from playing at tier-4 (back then, the lowest tier, now tier-5) ranking up to tier-3, then to tier-2 and finally to tier-1. Doesn't seem to prevent people from "gitting gud" over there.

 

Bottom line, a game is about having fun.

If my fun is in being competitive, getting into the highest tier and scoring as the top player in my team, I will put the work and effort into becoming that great player and it doesn't matter one bit if I play vs. potatoes the couple dozen of games before I have "leveled-up"

If my fun is in playing a quick match, shooting big guns or blowing other ships up for a few minutes until getting blown out of the water, then playing in the "bottom league" is quite fine and I couldn't give a rodent's behind about "gitting gud"

[Dragnorak]

Interesting on my first battle using this. 

 

 

 

4 players on opposing team with sub 40%Wr 2 with 30%

[mtm78]

15 minutes ago, Dragnorak said:

Interesting on my first battle using this.

 

Ship or overall? Don't think it's possible to get 30% overall it's close to actively damaging your team by being in it. 

 

24 minutes ago, MAD_3R_Marauder said:

You got a point with bad/new players only playing bad/new players, but I think you're selling new players short here (well, those with the potential to become average/good ones, anyway)

 

Those who would learn by playing (and losing badly) vs. good players, would (IMO), still improve, (you show broadside and get slapped, you sail right into a spread of torps, you die - that kind of stuff happens in low-tier, with, supposedly, new, inexperienced players too) while those not improving wouldn't improve anyway (in German, we call it "lern-resistent", learning-resistant)

 

The more important things imo isn't even those basics, everyone even a baddy should eventually get those, but it's more about roles, positioning and map control.

 

If you seperate the lower 'brackets' from the better players, you will get enourmous meta changes between brackets, because the better players become the more tactical options they can execute on in good manner which enables different kind of gameplay. I think 'worse' players need to see what can happen if they 'git gud', it's motivational. 

 

I wouldn't care about brackets really, I just wanted to win my games more and have less people complain about me in battle chat and tell me how I suck ( I'm one of the few seemingly capable of some selfreflection and admittance: I was pretty bad at this game ). And even if I was TOLD every day I was bad, I probably would have just thought people were being mean on the internet. But, I was also able to SEE how other good players played, because they were in my matches and well I tended to be to agressive when I started playing and since I was also pretty bad I had plenty of time to spectate ( ow how things have changed  ).

 

Not that spectating 'did the trick', for me it started with me actually going in chat: Ok, guys, I know I am not a good player, but I'm sick of being told I'm bad. Instead of telling me I'm bad, start telling me how to not be bad. Granted I don't really see that happen much in randoms now, but that is what community was like back then. Because they listened, and so did I. Took a long time, but eventually I came to a point where I might not be a true unicorn I'm still a pretty decent player. And no, most of that isn't even 'don't show broadside', but more about map positioning and target priorization ( and getting a lot of this automated so you can actively watch minimap while playing your ship at the same time ). 

 

39 minutes ago, MAD_3R_Marauder said:

There can still be a good spread within a single bracket (in my example from -20% to +20% of average base-xp) and of course, the bracket could be made wider too.

 

I don't see myself doing that in a bracket system, I would probably be to lazy and well everyone around me sucked so I just have to suck a little bit less. Now I might not be representative of a very large group, or maybe a lot of people wouldn't admit it off themselves, but I really needed that spark. I am not sure if this spark is there within such a small margin ( bracket ), at least not for me. 

 

Look, the people who told me I am bad ( and to which I listened ) were all top players. And I needed that, because if 'some guy just lucky enough to have better teams so he get's 5% higher wr' was telling me something I'd dismiss it. But if someone who got 15% higher solo win rate consistently told me that if I did job X he could do Y en thus we eventually would do Z and win, well that mattered to me more because it's harder to dismiss. 

 

Also it might surprise some people here who always complain about toxic unicums in chat, a lot of those players have given up on it that's true, but it's actually very hard to find someone who is good at something and who isn't open to teaching that to others. But heck if you go back to OBT times. I bet you can find a lot of content here on forums about people who just stop trying to give advice even well meant because a lot of the returns of that investment is a> people still doing exactly the opposite as what you asked / discussed b> a lot of personal attacks because 'who are they to tell me how to play this game'. 

 

Maybe the enjoyment of people in the lower brackets would be higher, because there is less pressure to actually understand the game and mechanics since heck you're bottom bracket for a reason. But I for one would like to keep playing with all kinds of players, as long as it's random. And if WG says it is. and if it feels random enough for me. Some games I get carried by others, some games I can't carry even if I try my damnest, and the rest is a bit in the middle of that. 

 

As long as this spread is enjoyable, I don't see a reason for me at least to look at changing it. 

 

 

[Dragnorak]

53 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

 

Ship or overall? Don't think it's possible to get 30% overall it's close to actively damaging your team by being in it. 

 

 

Ah yes I looked again its ship. Gives you a lot in info though on damage etc. Quite eye opening.

[Sub_Human]

15 hours ago, Dragnorak said:

There have been a lot of discussions over the years re the quality of ones team and not forgetting of course the dirge of 40% Wr players.

 

So with a bit of thought would a stats based MM actually work do you think so that you are matched up more often with players of your skill level where available?

How about no!

[Bindolaf_Werebane]

I am not going to get into the "how to", but I find the idea of weighted matchmaking good.

 

Think of Overwatch as an example. Random mode could stay as is. Add a competitive random mode that keeps track of some kind of "SR", or PR or whatever. This way, you play with others of your skill. WG can add pretty graphics and ego - enhancing terms for the categories ("typhoon! hurricane")!

 

What would the drawbacks be, really? It would be an optional mode, it would create interesting engagements. It would prevent (in this mode) seal clubbing. Skilled players could play lower tier battles and still have challenging opponents.

 

The player numbers could be a problem, but that's up to the players to use the mode or not (of course they would use it, a title, pretty graphics and maybe some unique rewards)?

 

The other arguments don't hold water, in my opinion. "How would players learn", is this a joke? The same way the original wows players learnt - by playing against others and getting better.

 

As for fragile unicorns losing their WR - they wouldn't. Or, they would, but what is better, 50% WR in the Grandmaster category (with all the insignia and bragging rights that go with it) or 60% WR in Copper? Come on.

 

And I will leave this here too: Wows would actually make for a.more watchable and enjoyable eSport than Overwatch.

[mtm78]

21 minutes ago, Bindolaf_Werebane said:

he same way the original wows players learnt - by playing against others and getting better.

 

Yes, but we actually got better against players who were VERY invested in the game and who CARED about learning  ( and testing ) ( new ) game mechanics. You're not recreating that when you place new players in a bracket with the 4x% wr muppets only you need to sometimes have them meet a shark when the go fishin. 

 

23 minutes ago, Bindolaf_Werebane said:

Skilled players could play lower tier battles

 

Wait, let's assume I am a  reasonable player, why could I not play other tiers otherwise? Heck if I hadn't gotten the tier V DD from some mission I to have to grind from the start of a line. What is this nonsense that you don't want to play against good players on lower tiers, you still need people to show others how it's done the right way. 

 

25 minutes ago, Bindolaf_Werebane said:

what is better, 50% WR in the Grandmaster category (with all the insignia and bragging rights that go with it) or 60% WR in Copper

Depends, what do you want? Is this a fun environment where you come to RANDOMLY play some games, or do you want to approach every random battle as highly competitive? If you'd say games are primarily for fun, why are you forcing good players to always have to perform up to their own higher standards? Aren't they free to just relax and herp a derp around like the rest of the players? The only difference there is that herp usually is followed by derping people on enemy team and not your own. 

 

You know, it's nice to have that 60%+, but it comes naturally. What you want is for players like me to have to fight only other players as good as me. I already do, my MM is random like for everyone else. but this also means I sometimes have to play with and sometimes against other players of equal skill ( or way better, I'm not even that good you see ). 

 

Seems you don't care about that and just see it as getting rid of 'seal clubbers'. 

[Bindolaf_Werebane]

Relax and herp derp: click on Random, have fun.

 

Play games that don't ruin your blood pressure: click on Competitive, have fun.

 

What's the problem?

 

As for the rest, you are wrong. No one gets better from getting blapped. No one learns from getting steamrolled.

 

You are right on one account, I do want a mode without seal clubbers.

[_FCK_PTN_]

28 minutes ago, Bindolaf_Werebane said:

No one gets better from getting blapped. No one learns from getting steamrolled.

You do learn from getting blapped - like don;t show broadside to a bb with your cruiser as it means insta delete, do not yolo run with a dd at cruiser as it usually end up with delete.

As for steamrolls you get that battle 1/20-1/50 you just remember them better as they pi... annoy you more.

 

28 minutes ago, Bindolaf_Werebane said:

Play games that don't ruin your blood pressure: click on Competitive, have fun.

I can bet all I have that population of unicums on Competitive, at start, would be very very low if there is any at all. The people who cry at MM are not unicums, they probably are not even very good. Most of them are average or simply bad and don;t want to play against better players, but just to click and see how their shells or torps wreck enemy ship and unicums who shoot at them before they can even understand what's going on are the problem for them. The point is you cannot force unciums to go into competitive if they don;t want to and if all other players will go to competitive they will just follow and competitive would be new random. The thing you propose is basically what we have in the shape of ranked battles and please go through forum and check how well are ranked rated...

[Excavatus]

Dear OP,

 

You kind find enough discussion about why SBMM will or will not work in this very unique game (as well as the for the WOT in their forum)

On the other hand, we have a MM discussion thread which specifcally opened for this kind of discussion, which you can see in the OP of the said thread.

It's around the top of the gameplay section.

 

So, this topic will be kindly locked.