aa rework Feedback on the new AA System.

[Sunleader]

2 hours ago, mtm78 said:

Ow hey Mate, I didn't see you there mate sorry I bumped into you mate.

 

1. Go right ahead, didn't realize the CV rework thread wasn't sufficient and it wasn't sufficiently known to the people who should know that AAA is crap this patch. It was already said before patch went live, people expected it even. 
2. I did not care enough to actually read all the patch notes, I am aware that flak is basically useless against good players and DPS is what will shoot down some planes correct me if wrong. And the difference between heavy and light is range, since we exclude anything besides dps, so you're saying BB will do more damage to the planes for longer since it's high damage aura is bigger and the planes will stay in longer? So when I said BB got buffed, that was actually correct? I haven't checked the dps values of all my cruisers, you're saying they should have higher base dps and not just higher dps during DFAA boost? What do you call AAA cruisers then? How many cruisers does this exclude? And those cruisers, they should be easy prey for CV's, easier as battleships? Because DFAA doesn't disrupt drop patterns... not that that matters much with these small drops, but hey we had to make sure BB's couldn't get dev struck anymore even if they misplayed. 
3. Mate I can talk about this rework having impacts and effects all I want, just as you can talk all you want. If I say that BB's got buffed in comparison with other classes that's not only correct if I understand things correctly, it's also relevant and I could not care less if you could not care less. Yeah that reads about the same as I read your sentence so I guess it's alright. 

And yes, CV reework imho is a total disaster gameplay wise, the impact is rather nauseating at times.   

 

Wait, so why again should BB's be more competent in dealing with CV's as cruisers again? Gameplay wise, not historical. Because if they should not be competent to deal with CV's on their own, you know, requiring some synergy and teamwork, why is it irrelevant their AAA changes positively compared with the class which is supposed to be of importance to battleship players because if they do not support them they get farmed by enemy CV?

 

It's rather puzzling, removing escort need from BB's and letting them do everything even better on their own, and then saying we will add submarines so DD's will have to hunt those ( to protect the battleships from getting torped ofc ). 

 

No, this is all perfectly relevant to AA rework and CV rework in general, I don't really see a need to 'just focus on AA being crap'. DFAA should be more important, disrupting drop patterns should be more important, BB's shouldn't be able to ignore cruiser support. Rework entire experience system so it actually rewards teamplay oriented actions and force players to be less selfish in game by negatively reward people not using their abilities to aid the team. AA rework or CV rework sadly has past the point where this would even be a point of discussion though so I guess I'm that lone mad guy screaming in the dessert at fata morgana's. 

 

As I said, carry on. 

 

 

Mate is my Catchphrase so stop stealing it :P

 

1.

This Thread is about the AA Rework. The System that was Changed was after all the AA. Not the CVs this time.

2.

No. As I said. I merely set out the Situation according to YOUR Logic. To Demonstrate why your wrong with it.

Currently the Situation is. That DPS on all Ships has been Nerfed. On Ships which had very high DPS it was Nerfed Strongly and on Ships with low DPS not so Strongly. Most BBs had no good DPS so they didnt get Nerfed pretty Strong. While Cruisers in General had pretty good DPS so they almost all got Nerfed Pretty hard.

But some BBs which had good DPS also got Nerfed rather Hard actually. Kremlin for example which has insane DPS values got Hit pretty hard as well.

 

But Heavy AA. The Flak Clouds. Remained Untouched. And thanks to DFAA  now Buffing them instead of DPS they basicly received a Mini Buff.

 

Now thing is. BBs by Default have Pretty large amounts of these Flak Clouds. Some BBs even on T6-7 already get quite a few of them.

So BBs feel much Stronger AA wise especially when the CV Attacking them doesnt know how to Evade AA Properly.

 

BB DPS however is still for most part Weaker than Cruisers. (Exceptions always exist of course. Like Jean Bart which beats most Cruisers AA.)

3.

Thing is its Wrong. BBs did not get Buffed. They Simply got Nerfed less Hard :P

 

 

 

As for BBs.

As I said Mate. I dont care if BBs should or should not have Stronger AA etc.

My Problem is Overpowered CVs right now.

How well Classes compared to each other should be able to Deal with Attacks is something we can think about when we can deal with CV Attacks at all again.

 

 

[mtm78]

3 hours ago, Sunleader said:

While Cruisers in General had pretty good DPS so they almost all got Nerfed Pretty hard.

Doesn't this depend on where you look? USN top tier BB's always had good base dps and were only surpassed by cruisers when they were using dfaa ( or specialized AA cruisers ). I know Kremlin was insane, but I haven't been checking spreadsheets or much of the news / patch notes I'm commenting from perspective or 'returning player' mostly.

 

3 hours ago, Sunleader said:

Now thing is. BBs by Default have Pretty large amounts of these Flak Clouds. Some BBs even on T6-7 already get quite a few of them.

So BBs feel much Stronger AA wise especially when the CV Attacking them doesnt know how to Evade AA Properly.

You never balance around bad players. If you do,  those unicorns will still be abusing the hell out of people on the enemy team and true balance will never be archived. You balance around good players, even if it makes the worst of the worst players not able to contribute anything in the class, then they should rather just not try playing them at all just as with all the other classes. 

 

3 hours ago, Sunleader said:

BB DPS however is still for most part Weaker than Cruisers. (Exceptions always exist of course. Like Jean Bart which beats most Cruisers AA.)

IJN was always the 'weakest' in AA ( mostly because they depended a lot on their 25mm which are just terrible like irl ). I guess there are new weak nations, but afaik not only JB has good AA in the French line. 

 

3 hours ago, Sunleader said:

Thing is its Wrong. BBs did not get Buffed. They Simply got Nerfed less Hard :P

Toymato Tomahto

 

3 hours ago, Sunleader said:

How well Classes compared to each other should be able to Deal with Attacks is something we can think about when we can deal with CV Attacks at all again.

No, because it's tied to how AAA works. But like I wrote earlier, I'm to late to have any influence on how this interaction should look like. And perhaps that's a good thing, because I would be 'pretty salty' to those people responsible for why I quit playing just now. My AAA spec Grozovoi was farmed an entire game by an Enterprise. I recieved 20k rocket damage, and took 10k from him spotting me. In total I shot down 34 planes. But there was absolutely no counter play, it is just a matter of time and I can't do anything about it. 

 

That player has a 52% account wr. His WR in Enterprise was 66%. So far for REEwork being a succes in anything but making life easier for battleships. 

 

edit: but I can understand why you made the thread so I will stop derailing it with this 'off topic' discussion ;) It's not like it has any use anyway it doesn't even make me feel less nauseous venting a bit on forum. 

 

edit2: and cya around mate

 

 

[Ace42X]

On 9/6/2019 at 2:00 PM, Sunleader said:

Meanwhile I was a bit Worried to Start my Journey on the T8 British CV.

Yah, I got Implacable today.  Put one of my spare Hoods in the command chair with a regular 9-point build, got the usual modules slotted, had a game as stock.  I got 6 karma just for not throwing...

[Sunleader]

@others. I.ll Answer you guys as well once I am home.

But this one Bugs me so I got to do this right away.

 

 

3 hours ago, Ace42X said:

Yah, I got Implacable today.  Put one of my spare Hoods in the command chair with a regular 9-point build, got the usual modules slotted, had a game as stock.  I got 6 karma just for not throwing...

 

Yo Mate.

Thanks for the Video.

 

Now I really mean no Harm and I dont want to bug you.

But allow me to give you some Pointers :)

 

1.

When you Start you have 2 Meaningful Options.

A. Take Rockets and go look for DDs to Suicide the Squad into it and Ruin its day as well as Showing it to your Team.

B. Take Torpedobombers and take a Scouting Run on the entire Enemy Front.

Drop Fighters on the Flank you start as soon as you spot the first BB.

Why Torpedobombers?

Because they go faster, take more punishment and because they can heal off if you get struck by a flak puff.

 

2.

Your Squadrons Start Regeneration of Planes the moment you have less than Maximum Planes on Deck.

So First 3 Squads should always be cycled.

Dont use the same Squad twice at the Start. You waste extra Planes that way.

 

3.

Torpedo Bombers during Attack Run go below AA Puffs.

And they have long Aiming Time.

You just fly straight into the AA puff and waste 2 planes this way.

Instead ALWAYS start the Attack Run BEFORE you reach the Black Puffs.

This way you can evade them 100%.

 

4.

I see this alot.

Pls do not Adjust Attack Direction AFTER you enter into AA Range.

Heavy AA is Spawned in a Broadside Line between you and the Enemy Ship.

If you Fly Directly towards the Enemy Ship you cross that Line. So your only in the Spawnzone for but Splitseconds.

If you get hit its just one or so cloud.

You take maybe 2-3k Damage.

If however you strafe Diagonal to a Ship you are Flying Parallel to these Lines.

Meaning your Spending several Seconds inside the Spawnzone.

So your not just much easier to hit but if you get hit you get hit by 4-5 Clouds in a row taking away 5-10k HP and possibly Deleting your Squadron.

Always adjust your Attack Direction BEFORE you enter AA Range.

Once your inside AA Range always go straight for the Target.

 

Think of your Planes as a Cruiser.

Do not Show Broadside to Enemy Ships in Range of your Citadel.

Bow in and Attack. Only show your side when you have to.

For example during the turn after the Attack.

 

5.

The Engine Boost Refill is Free.

So use it.

Creating an early Advantage being on the Enemy fast is worth such consumables for it :)

 

6.

When Attacking DDs with Rockets.

Aim for their Nose. They are fast and small so they will move nearly half a Ship lentgh before your Rockets reach.

Also. After the Attack. Boost Forward and only after that Turn.

Otherwise you will end up Overshooting the DD.

 

 

 

 

So.

Advice Over.

 

Sorry if this Sounds Arrogant or Overbearing etc.

I really mean no harm or offense at all.

I just want to give some Advice that might help you out :)

[Sunleader]

7 hours ago, mtm78 said:

Doesn't this depend on where you look? USN top tier BB's always had good base dps and were only surpassed by cruisers when they were using dfaa ( or specialized AA cruisers ). I know Kremlin was insane, but I haven't been checking spreadsheets or much of the news / patch notes I'm commenting from perspective or 'returning player' mostly.

 

You never balance around bad players. If you do,  those unicorns will still be abusing the hell out of people on the enemy team and true balance will never be archived. You balance around good players, even if it makes the worst of the worst players not able to contribute anything in the class, then they should rather just not try playing them at all just as with all the other classes. 

 

IJN was always the 'weakest' in AA ( mostly because they depended a lot on their 25mm which are just terrible like irl ). I guess there are new weak nations, but afaik not only JB has good AA in the French line. 

 

Toymato Tomahto

 

No, because it's tied to how AAA works. But like I wrote earlier, I'm to late to have any influence on how this interaction should look like. And perhaps that's a good thing, because I would be 'pretty salty' to those people responsible for why I quit playing just now. My AAA spec Grozovoi was farmed an entire game by an Enterprise. I recieved 20k rocket damage, and took 10k from him spotting me. In total I shot down 34 planes. But there was absolutely no counter play, it is just a matter of time and I can't do anything about it. 

 

That player has a 52% account wr. His WR in Enterprise was 66%. So far for REEwork being a succes in anything but making life easier for battleships. 

 

edit: but I can understand why you made the thread so I will stop derailing it with this 'off topic' discussion ;) It's not like it has any use anyway it doesn't even make me feel less nauseous venting a bit on forum. 

 

edit2: and cya around mate

 

 

 

1.

US BBs still got Pretty Strong AA. But they still also got Nerfed harder than others :P

2.

Nope. Never said you Should Balance based on Bad Players. Thats why I consider the idea of Guaranteeing Planes Surviving for 1 Strike Minimum an Stupid thing and would rather have a different System.

3.

Not Contesting said and I didnt say anything to that end either.

4.

Facts are Facts even if they are Small :P

5.

Well if you care you make a Topic on it :P

I can currently Bomb anything and anyone without effort.

AA is way too weak right now as that I would even make a Difference between Bombing a DD or a BB....

 

 

And well. Your Welcome. Its not like your Opinion is that Different from Mine.

It just seems we have different Priorities as to how to approach the Problem.

[1MajorKoenig]

8 hours ago, mtm78 said:

Doesn't this depend on where you look? USN top tier BB's always had good base dps and were only surpassed by cruisers when they were using dfaa ( or specialized AA cruisers ). I know Kremlin was insane, but I haven't been checking spreadsheets or much of the news / patch notes I'm commenting from perspective or 'returning player' mostly.

 

You never balance around bad players. If you do,  those unicorns will still be abusing the hell out of people on the enemy team and true balance will never be archived. You balance around good players, even if it makes the worst of the worst players not able to contribute anything in the class, then they should rather just not try playing them at all just as with all the other classes. 

 

IJN was always the 'weakest' in AA ( mostly because they depended a lot on their 25mm which are just terrible like irl ). I guess there are new weak nations, but afaik not only JB has good AA in the French line. 

 

Toymato Tomahto

 

No, because it's tied to how AAA works. But like I wrote earlier, I'm to late to have any influence on how this interaction should look like. And perhaps that's a good thing, because I would be 'pretty salty' to those people responsible for why I quit playing just now. My AAA spec Grozovoi was farmed an entire game by an Enterprise. I recieved 20k rocket damage, and took 10k from him spotting me. In total I shot down 34 planes. But there was absolutely no counter play, it is just a matter of time and I can't do anything about it. 

 

That player has a 52% account wr. His WR in Enterprise was 66%. So far for REEwork being a succes in anything but making life easier for battleships. 

 

edit: but I can understand why you made the thread so I will stop derailing it with this 'off topic' discussion ;) It's not like it has any use anyway it doesn't even make me feel less nauseous venting a bit on forum. 

 

edit2: and cya around mate

 

 

 

Mate are you really arguing with that person...?

 

He is absolutely incapable of reading and understand numbers and basing his content free walls of text only on his feeeeeelings which are basically “buff my German BBs and nurf everything else”.

 

 

 

 

Btw nice to see you’re back mtm

[AirSupremacy]

On 9/3/2019 at 6:30 PM, Sunleader said:

 

1.

It Cant.

Because just like a BB can Still Shoot at you even if you Bow in.

Just with much Reduced Hit Chance and much Reduced Damage.

 

A CV can Always Drop Torpedoes from outside AA Range or Change Targets to a Ship not part of the Blob.

As well as just Staying at about 8km to Spot the Enemy and wait for an Opening.

 

Something DDs do alot. Because for them its Suicide if they just Rush into every First Target they meet regardless of Situation.

 

 

Sorry. But all your Doing here is DEMANDING CVs to always Remain so Overpowered that YOU CANNOT BE STOPPED NO MATTER WHAT.

Something that no other Class in the Game has.

 

 

2.

The Question has to be Asked.

Because You are Demanding that CVs are Excluded from any Skill Play and are Guaranteed to be able to Strike regardless of the Actions of your Opposing Player.

 

And No.

AA was Nerfed.

The Mechanics being Changed is Irrelevant to that.

Because the Mechanic is nowhere even remotely as Powerful as to make up for the Nerf.

 

Otherwise I could Suggest alot of Great Buffs to CVs as well.
For example.

Lets Add 2 Additional Torpedo Bombers to each Drop of the Kaga. It by Default has 4 so now it has 6.

But each Torpedo only does 1k Damage instead of 4k

 

Then we Call it a Buff.

Thats Fair Right :)

 

Or lets Change the Mechanic for CVs entirely.

CVs all get 10% more Aircraft. But they no longer Regenerate any Aircraft.

 

Great Buff Right :)

 

Sorry But you Stop making Stawmans and just Argue Normally ?

Because so far your just making Excuses and keep trying to divert attention from the Problem.

 

 

3.

Its a Strategy used against a Vastly Superior Enemy that you have no Way of Defeating Yes.

Its a Strategy because CVs ARE EXACTLY THIS. An Vastly Superior and Overpowered Enemy YOU CANNOT HOPE TO DEFEAT.

 

 

4.

You didnt Dodge a Single Torp, Bomb or Rocket in this Game lol

The CV merely Missed you and RNG decided to Drop the Torps in a Spread that was at a different Position than your Ship was going.

 

Not sure where you Cherry Picked that Funny Definition either.

But No.

 

as a Verb.

avoid (someone or something) by a sudden quick movement.

 

Or a Noun.

a sudden quick movement to avoid someone or something.

 

Nothing about your Movement here is Sudden or Quick.

Ships do not Move Sudden or Quick.

But most of all. None of your Movement is actually Dodging anything.

All of your Movement is Initiated before the Attack already.

 

 

What your Doing is Evasive Maneuvers. Which is not Dodging.

Your Decreasing the Chances the other Person Hits.

Your not Actually Dodging an Attack that would have Hit you.

 

Here Mate.

THIS would be Dodging.

 

 

 

A Sudden Quick Movement to Avoid being Hit.

Not Something you can do in the Game.

 

 

Mate Once More.

Pls stop with the Strawmans.

All your Doing is Evading the Point.

 

 

 

I am Asking you.

Why Should CVs be Guaranteed to Strike no matter what the Opponent Does ?

Why Should CVs be the only Class in the Game so Powerful that you cannot Defeat alone ?

Why Should CVs be the only Class in the Game which cannot be Stopped from Attacking you even if your using Explicit Strategy against it making yourself Vulnearble against other Classes ?

Why Should CVs be the only Class in the Game which always and at all Times Can Immediately Attack whatever Target it wants without any Risks. While every other Class has to Consider Attacking an Enemy Formation because it might be Killed if it does ?

How do You Justify the Tremendous Advantages that CVs Hold ABOUT EVERY OTHER CLASS WITH NO PAYOFF WHATSOEVER ?

 

 

I disagree

[1MajorKoenig]

1 hour ago, AirSupremacy said:

I disagree

 

Short but sweet 

 

 

(agree btw)

[Ace42X]

6 hours ago, Sunleader said:

1.

When you Start you have 2 Meaningful Options.

A. Take Rockets and go look for DDs to Suicide the Squad into it and Ruin its day as well as Showing it to your Team.

B. Take Torpedobombers and take a Scouting Run on the entire Enemy Front.

Drop Fighters on the Flank you start as soon as you spot the first BB.

Why Torpedobombers?

Because they go faster, take more punishment and because they can heal off if you get struck by a flak puff.

Hmmm, I generally try to beat up the DDs first because no-one on my team ever seems to want to.  I tried playing more torps-heavy in my Kaga, and my win-rate nose-dived even as my damage went up.

I'm not sure I understand:  Torpedo bombers are faster?  The Barracudas were idling at 129kts, the Fireflies at 133kts; when I feathered the throttle to boost them, the barracudas got to 150-160ish; the Fireflies 150-170ish?
Fly up the flank quickly, spot a BB in the distance, use a fighter consumable over the open ocean, and then move across front to find rest of the team?  Isn't it easy to miss Destroyers if you're not scouting aggressively?
 

Quote

 

2.  Your Squadrons Start Regeneration of Planes the moment you have less than Maximum Planes on Deck.

So First 3 Squads should always be cycled.

Dont use the same Squad twice at the Start. You waste extra Planes that way.

 

That's a handy meta-tip, usually I'm too focussed on "I want to get that Destroyer evicted from the game ASAP, and he can just dodge torps", but this will certainly encourage me to maybe try torping smokes a bit more often as a proportion of the planes are effectively "freebies".

Quote

 

Torpedo Bombers during Attack Run go below AA Puffs.

And they have long Aiming Time.

You just fly straight into the AA puff and waste 2 planes this way.

Instead ALWAYS start the Attack Run BEFORE you reach the Black Puffs.

This way you can evade them 100%.

 

 

You mean in the attack run vs the Republique around the 4 minute mark?  Yeah, that was a combination of inattention on my part, as well as me being cavalier about trying to WSAD dodge flak.  I've only just got to a place where I can divide my attention between performing an on-target attack and keeping an eye on my squads' health to figure out if flak has hit or if its continuous damage that is causing my planes to make popping, booming, and crash-and-burning noises, tbh - and that mainly down to the last few patches changing how health-damage works and changing the AA zones so what's going on is less obscure.

Am I right in thinking that *some* but not *all* rocket planes can go into an attack run to dodge flak?  Because I am sure I've managed to skip over / under flak in my Ranger's attack planes, but had the RN Hurricanes just fly face first through it.

Quote

 

4.

I see this alot.

Pls do not Adjust Attack Direction AFTER you enter into AA Range.

Heavy AA is Spawned in a Broadside Line between you and the Enemy Ship.

If you Fly Directly towards the Enemy Ship you cross that Line. So your only in the Spawnzone for but Splitseconds.

If you get hit its just one or so cloud.

You take maybe 2-3k Damage.

If however you strafe Diagonal to a Ship you are Flying Parallel to these Lines.

Meaning your Spending several Seconds inside the Spawnzone.

So your not just much easier to hit but if you get hit you get hit by 4-5 Clouds in a row taking away 5-10k HP and possibly Deleting your Squadron.

Always adjust your Attack Direction BEFORE you enter AA Range.

Once your inside AA Range always go straight for the Target.

 

Think of your Planes as a Cruiser.

Do not Show Broadside to Enemy Ships in Range of your Citadel.

Bow in and Attack. Only show your side when you have to.

For example during the turn after the Attack.

 

 

Just to clarify, you're saying the flak "wall" is always perpendicular to the directly line between your squadron and the middle of the enemy ship?  I was wondering what the basis for the geometry was, so if this is the case that's very helpful, especially if I want to position my AA cruiser in the best location to mess up an attack run on a friendly ship.

I can certainly try to keep further from the AA (atm the late warning that you're in AA means I stray way too far into it before I even know it's there, and I don't have the AA ranges for every ship memorised).
However, how do you get (and keep) a good angle on any ship if you're committing to an approach +5kms away?  Surely that's all the time in the world for any remotely agile boat to angle against you again and again and again?  If a ship angles against my Ranger's rocket planes, that's 2/3rds of a salvo RNGing into the water; even with the better aim of the IJN and UK planes, it's still losing one third if the ship is well angled?  In that video, at the end, even on an attack run where I was lined up and the DD was in the middle of my crosshairs, only a fraction of the bombs hit - against a DD who has turned broadside, it's a coinflip if even one bomb connects?

 

Quote

 

Sorry if this Sounds Arrogant or Overbearing etc.

I really mean no harm or offense at all.

I just want to give some Advice that might help you out :)

 

 

I appreciate the feedback, I can certainly spend more time well outside of AA range trying to establish a better angle - usually I find that between map borders and other ships blobbing, I don't really get much room or many options to manouvre, though.  With an average of 5km AA radius in tiers 8-10, ships can be 10km away from each other (same as my planes' detection radius) and me still be in one of their flak radii no matter which one I'm trying to focus.

Practice in general will help, and certainly being more aggressive going nose in on the targets will help.  It will certainly pay dividends on my Kaga's concealment build when I get my next 4 CO points to put on CE.

[Sunleader]

4 hours ago, Ace42X said:

Hmmm, I generally try to beat up the DDs first because no-one on my team ever seems to want to.  I tried playing more torps-heavy in my Kaga, and my win-rate nose-dived even as my damage went up.

I'm not sure I understand:  Torpedo bombers are faster?  The Barracudas were idling at 129kts, the Fireflies at 133kts; when I feathered the throttle to boost them, the barracudas got to 150-160ish; the Fireflies 150-170ish?
Fly up the flank quickly, spot a BB in the distance, use a fighter consumable over the open ocean, and then move across front to find rest of the team?  Isn't it easy to miss Destroyers if you're not scouting aggressively?
 

 

That's a handy meta-tip, usually I'm too focussed on "I want to get that Destroyer evicted from the game ASAP, and he can just dodge torps", but this will certainly encourage me to maybe try torping smokes a bit more often as a proportion of the planes are effectively "freebies".

 

You mean in the attack run vs the Republique around the 4 minute mark?  Yeah, that was a combination of inattention on my part, as well as me being cavalier about trying to WSAD dodge flak.  I've only just got to a place where I can divide my attention between performing an on-target attack and keeping an eye on my squads' health to figure out if flak has hit or if its continuous damage that is causing my planes to make popping, booming, and crash-and-burning noises, tbh - and that mainly down to the last few patches changing how health-damage works and changing the AA zones so what's going on is less obscure.

Am I right in thinking that *some* but not *all* rocket planes can go into an attack run to dodge flak?  Because I am sure I've managed to skip over / under flak in my Ranger's attack planes, but had the RN Hurricanes just fly face first through it.

 

Just to clarify, you're saying the flak "wall" is always perpendicular to the directly line between your squadron and the middle of the enemy ship?  I was wondering what the basis for the geometry was, so if this is the case that's very helpful, especially if I want to position my AA cruiser in the best location to mess up an attack run on a friendly ship.

I can certainly try to keep further from the AA (atm the late warning that you're in AA means I stray way too far into it before I even know it's there, and I don't have the AA ranges for every ship memorised).
However, how do you get (and keep) a good angle on any ship if you're committing to an approach +5kms away?  Surely that's all the time in the world for any remotely agile boat to angle against you again and again and again?  If a ship angles against my Ranger's rocket planes, that's 2/3rds of a salvo RNGing into the water; even with the better aim of the IJN and UK planes, it's still losing one third if the ship is well angled?  In that video, at the end, even on an attack run where I was lined up and the DD was in the middle of my crosshairs, only a fraction of the bombs hit - against a DD who has turned broadside, it's a coinflip if even one bomb connects?

 

 

I appreciate the feedback, I can certainly spend more time well outside of AA range trying to establish a better angle - usually I find that between map borders and other ships blobbing, I don't really get much room or many options to manouvre, though.  With an average of 5km AA radius in tiers 8-10, ships can be 10km away from each other (same as my planes' detection radius) and me still be in one of their flak radii no matter which one I'm trying to focus.

Practice in general will help, and certainly being more aggressive going nose in on the targets will help.  It will certainly pay dividends on my Kaga's concealment build when I get my next 4 CO points to put on CE.

 

 

1.

When you want to go for a Scouting Run you basicly Start from whatever Flank of the Enemy is closer to you.

You fly towards the Enemy until you Spot the First BB. Then you Drop a Fighter.

The Enemy will at this point Continue Heading towards your Team. So your Fighter will for the next Minute Spot any Ships that come towards him and enter his Spotting Range.

Meanwhile you can Turn away and go Spot the other Flank of the Enemy Team.

At the other Flank you can of course then also Bomb some Enemy Ships you come Across. Preferably a Cruiser.

 

Torpedo Bombers Motor Boost holds out far far longer. Thanks to that its Faster than the Rocket Attackers. 

Also. When you take such Scouting Runs you often end up Strafing Enemy AA Diagonal. Which makes you very easy to Hit. The Heal of the Torpedo Bombers comes in very Handy here as it allows you to Heal off that Damage and thus not lose the Chance to Attack.

 

But as I said. Thats just one Option.

Hunting DDs is extremely Importand. And a Good Choice at the Start of the Battle. So using Rocket Attackers and Hunting for DDs is always a Good Choice.

Just dont try to Cover the entire Enemy Team with a Spotting Run then. Because you waste alot of time and the Rocket Planes just Die way too fast when you Strafe Enemies.

 

2.

Thats why I usually use Torpedo Bombers First. I just do a Scouting Run with Torpedo Bombers and Torpedo an Enemy Cruiser after the Scouting Run. (Or if no Cruiser is Around I just annoy the next Battleship)

After that I use the Bombers to Annoy whatever DD I passed during my Torpedo Bomber Scouting Run. And potentially force him to use Smoke.

If he didnt use Smoke I Send my Rocket Planes to him after that. If he Did I send my Rocket Planes after the next Closest DD.

 

That way I usually have all my Squads Regenerating Planes right away.

 

And Yes. Torping Smoke is often a Good Choice. If you can Torp the DDs Broadside even if you dont hit him. You can often Force him out of Smoke this way.

If you then Drop Fighters on the Smoke as you pass over. Even if you Deal no Damage to the DD Your Team might get a Good Chance to do so.

 

3.

Yep. Thing is Torpedo Bombers thanks to having a very Long Time available for Attack. Can really Dive below Flak entirely. You can basicly Approach in Low Flight and this way are entirely Safe from Heavy AA.

But for some Reason People always try to only Start the Attack Run on the last few km. After they already passed through Enemy AA.

Instead just Start the Attack Run a few Kilometers Earlier and you dont even need to Dodge AA because your Planes just Dive under it.

 

Also Yes. Most Nations Rocket Attack Planes Change Altitude upon starting the Attack Run. So they can Dodge an AA Line this way.

They dont become Immune to AA Puffs as no Nation goes low or high enough for that. But you can use the Altitude Change to Evade one Line of Enemy AA Spawns.

The UK Attackers unfortunately barely Change Altitude. It still Mitigates some Damage as you still make a Minimal Change. But they are not taking a Drastical Change like most other Nations. So they still take Damage if you hit the AA Puff Line.

 

4.

This is where it becomes Annoying that English is not my First Language. So I cant exactly Describe this Properly.

Basicly like this.

 

 

Black Ring being the Ship.

The Red Lines are where the AA Spawns. (Of course they do have a little bit of Depth as well. But its rather minuscule)

The Violet Box is the Squadrons Position.

If you Attack like the Green Arrow. You Cross them and thus are not exposed to them that much.

If you Fly like the Blue Arrow. You end up inside an Enemy Barrage extremely fast. 

 

And Yes. If your the AA Cruiser you can Try to catch Planes that way.

If you can Position yourself so that a Squadron basicly Strafes you in 4-5km Distance you often End up getting Good Hits because they get hit by Heavy AA.

Thats also why you often take so many AA Hits when you Spot an Enemy Cruiser too late and then try to Turn away from him.

By turning away you often end up flying right through his Barrage.

 

As for the Range thats Easy.

Pretty much All Ships Heavy AA Range is between 5-7km So if you dont know. You just Stay 7km away.

And Yes. Ships can Maneuver in that Time of course. They can make themselves Harder to hit once you Commit to the Attack.

Now for Rockets this really doesnt matter so much. Because you can Adjust your Aiming with Minimal Movement during the Attack Run. You dont need to Attack from any Specific Direction.

For HE Bombers and Torpedo Bombers I actually abuse this. You see as I always Fly Straight for the Target and thus usually wont lose alot of Planes. I can almost always get a Second Attack in with the same Squadron.

And Ships take a long time to Change Direction.

So what I do when a Ship maneuvered to make itself harder to hit for the First Strike. Is that I just do the First Attack from the Bad Angle even if I only get a few Hits in. And then abuse the fact that he cant Change Direction fast enough anymore to Hit him Full Power with the Second Strike.

 

Also. For DDs dont worry. Its always a Counflip with the British HE Bombers actually. Your Bombers Drop 2 lines of Bombs. But the Spacing is so Large that you basicly never land more than 2 Bombs on a DD unless your Super Lucky.

Often you wont hit at all. Regardless of what Direction you Attacked from.

 

With Rockets its actually better to Attack from Broadside of a DD. Because the Ships Silouette going up out of the Water gives you a Bigger Target :)

 

5.

Well its up to anyone himself to choose the way he Plays.

So I dont make any Demands on this.

I myself for example Play vastly Different from the other CV Players. And they are much better than me in alot of Cases.

After all I dont use Slingshots or Squad Shortening either. And I often wont Focus DDs to the Extend which others do. Usually only Attacking them if they pose a Threat.

But there is some patterns and mechanics which people should know about which can help them to have less Problems regardless of their Personal Playstyle :)

Just like a Cruisers and BB should always know that Showing your Broadside comes with a Big Risk of being Citadelled.

 

 

[Ace42X]

20 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

 

All very useful, thanks.

That said, just played a game in my Lex and although I made a few mistakes, my planes just got deleted in a way that I am not sure I could've played around even if I had a do-over.  The enemy team stayed blobbed all game, I was bottom tier (and still stock with 10cp captain), and every time I tried to do something my planes dissolved before I could get more than one strike in.

I think part of the problem was teamplay - whole team did the usual "I don't want to fight, so I'll lemming train in the hopes someone else does my job for me" thing, which meant no pressure on the enemy for me to try and exploit, and game was over in the blink of an eye due to team conceding all of the CPs right from the start.

With a bit more time on my hands, I might've been able to pull it back after players used up their DFAA and catapult fighters, but I simply couldn't find any isolated ships that didn't have enough AA to deter me:  A Des Moines just drove straight from their CP to ours uncontested, and with an Amagi, Kita, and Jutland all under his wings, I didn't feel like I could oppose any of them without deplaning myself.  The Khaba scared me off to the point where I didn't even want to try isolating him given how quickly he generated flak around him, and how hard it was to detect him without taking damage.

There was an isolated Mogami I wanted to nuke, but he popped up a catapult fighter, and by the time that despawned, my team killed him with me landing like a torp or so on him; after that, there was a Vlad, Tirpitz, Z-52 blob that looked promising, but I lost a squad of my Divebombers in exchange for one getting through on the Tirpitz, and 5 TBs in exchange for getting two torps on the vlad and one on the tirpitz (would've been two, but the squad was already short a plane).

I think I could've maybe used sling-shotting to land some HE bombs more comfortably, but I've been trying to avoid that given how everyone in this thread is saying that AA's just a weak joke these days...

Again, I made some silly and lazy mistakes which made things worse, but even without those, I don't see things turning out very differently given the sheer volume of overlapping AA that was present.  It was a very big contrast to yesterday's Implacable game.

[Hopeless_Guppy]

On 9/1/2019 at 12:00 PM, Bear_Necessities said:

You’d think that. But I still see so so so many potato CV’s who can’t make any decent contribution to the teams.

Thats because I do not believe for one minute AA has been nerfed, god mode, that belongs to Elazur, or whatever his god like name is, we are back to blobs and over shooting DD's.. then getting wiped out by AA,back to BB's for me then, yaaaaay.

[Hopeless_Guppy]

On 9/6/2019 at 3:24 PM, El2aZeR said:

 

Exp earnings are a basic indicator of how much effective damage you deal since you earn more exp per percentage of damage dealt.

There is an issue with the individual exp modifiers of specific classes and some ships, but since we know CV earnings = BB earnings, as per official post, that CVs earn more exp than BBs on average means effective damage dealt is higher. This is also reflected in a better kills per match ratio.

 

 

You're not even trying to dodge flak. No wonder.

You assume he isn't,  dodging flak mean you have to wait ages and ages before you can even go in for a torp run. this entails the chat is turned firmly off, as it clearly does not work, dodge left, right slow down, speed up,  no effect whatsoever, planes wiped out, 0 damage, and this for 25 minutes, after 15 I throw my hands up in rage, and then sail the ship into the nearest blob.

 

CV's op my [edited]

[CptBarney]

I almost never seem to get CV's in my games, which means i never get to use my AA at all which is annoying.

 

Also trying to aim with ryuju without the aim enhancement and plane armour is tricky, but hopefully once those are researched i can actually survive long enough to do far more damage.

 

Hosho is a meme at this point now.

 

Also miss georgia was driving me up the wall today, wasn't able to hit bloody kiting cruisers and even somewhat stationary targets. I only got 1 maybe 2 pens if i was lucky. (bow on iowa at 12.5km-13km and only two shells actually go to the sodding ship, lmao).

[Bear__Necessities]

33 minutes ago, NoobySkooby said:

Thats because I do not believe for one minute AA has been nerfed, god mode, that belongs to Elazur, or whatever his god like name is, we are back to blobs and over shooting DD's.. then getting wiped out by AA,back to BB's for me then, yaaaaay.

Dodging flak is easy buddy. Just ask the multiple DD’s I wiped out this morning and the Baltimore I decimated in 1 round of AP bombs then finished off with 1 salvo or rockets. 

 

If my T6 CV’s can reliable hit the 100k mark even when up against T8/7 MM o can’t say I’ve noticed much change. Few more planes go down but that’s about it. Especially if you pick your targets well.

[Admiral_Noif]

AA is still annoyingly OP against my CV planes. RIP planes even trying to dodge them.Well... Time to throw my cvs back to my closet.

[B051LjKo]

16 minutes ago, Bear_Necessities said:

If my T6 CV’s can reliable hit the 100k mark even when up against T8/7 MM o can’t say I’ve noticed much change. Few more planes go down but that’s about it. Especially if you pick your targets well.

Well, to be fair, as per your stats, with T6 Carriers you can reliably hit the 60K dmg mark, as that is your average.

[Hopeless_Guppy]

51 minutes ago, B051LjKo said:

Well, to be fair, as per your stats, with T6 Carriers you can reliably hit the 60K dmg mark, as that is your average.

I would be happy with 60 k damage

[Sunleader]

49 minutes ago, B051LjKo said:

Well, to be fair, as per your stats, with T6 Carriers you can reliably hit the 60K dmg mark, as that is your average.

 

Wrong.

Once more you are Taking his General Average.

But that is Completely Irrelevant to the Current Situation. Because his General Average Includes Battles he Fought during Game Versions where AA was vastly more Powerful.

In the Current Update however AA has become next to useless. And his Average Damage for the Games after the Update has actually been Higher than 60k

 

The Topic is the Current Update and Situation in 0.8.7 where AA has been Nerfed into Oblivion.

So Average Numbers which Include Results from 0.8.6 where AA was an Actual Threat to CVs. are completely Irrelevant.

[Bear__Necessities]

57 minutes ago, B051LjKo said:

Well, to be fair, as per your stats, with T6 Carriers you can reliably hit the 60K dmg mark, as that is your average.

Difference between reliably and average. 

 

 

[B051LjKo]

4 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Wrong.

Once more you are Taking his General Average.

Of course I am, as that is the only reliable source of information. As time goes on, we will see if the averages are ascending or descending. 

4 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

But that is Completely Irrelevant to the Current Situation. Because his General Average Includes Battles he Fought during Game Versions where AA was vastly more Powerful.

In the Current Update however AA has become next to useless. And his Average Damage for the Games after the Update has actually been Higher than 60k

It also takes into account 8.3, 8.2, 8.1 and 8.0, where AA was much weaker than it is today so it is kidna a good picture. 60k for a tier 6 is still quite good, but it is far from 100K

4 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

The Topic is the Current Update and Situation in 0.8.7 where AA has been Nerfed into Oblivion.

So Average Numbers which Include Results from 0.8.6 where AA was an Actual Threat to CVs. are completely Irrelevant.

As mentioned, they also include 0.8.0 - 0.8.5, where AA was not weaker than it is now.

[B051LjKo]

4 minutes ago, Bear_Necessities said:

Difference between reliably and average. 

We can also say that you reliably deal Zero damage as well. As for every 120K game that you can do reliably, you need a 0K game, that you obviously mus also reliably do as your average would not be in the 60K zone otherwise.

 

Tier 6 in general seem in the OK zone. They lack the punch and have quite fragile planes to act as  Deus Ex machina in the battle. I havent played Tier 4, but that seem to be an issue after the buff. ANd that is not good, as seals need some protection. 

[Bear__Necessities]

3 hours ago, B051LjKo said:

We can also say that you reliably deal Zero damage as well. As for every 120K game that you can do reliably, you need a 0K game, that you obviously mus also reliably do as your average would not be in the 60K zone otherwise.

 

Tier 6 in general seem in the OK zone. They lack the punch and have quite fragile planes to act as  Deus Ex machina in the battle. I havent played Tier 4, but that seem to be an issue after the buff. ANd that is not good, as seals need some protection. 

You’re not applying context to MY point to a question about flak. Is flak hard to dodge? No. Can a player do large amounts of damage by avoiding flak? Yes. 

Does average damage matter? No. Why? Because average damage is just purely that. Damaged done over multiple games. All individual and different. Some games don’t last long enough to do a lot of damage, am I still avoid flak? Yes. Some games I end up focusing multiple DD’s with lower HP rather than farm BB’s. Am I dodging flak? Yes. Some games are just a white wash. Am I still getting strikes through and  avoiding flak? Yes.

 

And my proof is in my replays and results. Not what “average damage shows”. Picking a single stats skews that. That’s why you need to look at evidence as a whole.

[mtm78]

3 hours ago, B051LjKo said:

Tier 6 in general seem in the OK zone.

 

 

No it's not, if CV still gives more control over win or lose as any other class, regardless of the average damage which is a crap measurement atm since CV's went from alpha to chipping away and thus shifted dmg to destroyers and cruisers where using this implementation of CV's even the bad players can stil reliably dmg them because of the shotgun rockets ( nauseating, having zero counter play options ). Guess what has more strategic value, chipping away at DD's or chipping away slowly at battleships?

 

*edit I didn't want to imply this screenshot is from a bad player, he is certainly well above average to even good. That statement was in general, and I don't want to look at more of my screenshots as it really does make me physically sick looking at them. 

 

I know this is one screenshot, but I've been taking them every match I'm in. They all show the same, and yes idk when those 30 games are played but I sure as hell don't buy it it was his first game in that ship after all the recent changes.

 

I won't even posts the screenshots detailing how much wr boost players seem to be able to gain when using tier IV's... it's disgusting. 

 

 

[B051LjKo]

45 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

 

 

No it's not, if CV still gives more control over win or lose as any other class, regardless of the average damage which is a crap measurement atm since CV's went from alpha to chipping away and thus shifted dmg to destroyers and cruisers where using this implementation of CV's even the bad players can stil reliably dmg them because of the shotgun rockets ( nauseating, having zero counter play options ). Guess what has more strategic value, chipping away at DD's or chipping away slowly at battleships?

Well, CVs were historically by far the most capable ships . It is kinda logical that they are most influential class. Not to mention that you only have, or should have only one in your team.

45 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

I won't even posts the screenshots detailing how much wr boost players seem to be able to gain when using tier IV's... it's disgusting. 

Seal clubbing at Tier IV is not good for the game, I fully agree.