aa rework Feedback on the new AA System.

[Ace42X]

9 hours ago, asalonen said:

Captain skills don't really mean that much with CV's. Most are clearly useful, but their effect is really pretty small.

Its varied a lot over the patches since the rework, but I found the two survival skills (SE+armour) often meant the difference between planes getting to drop ordinance or them simply not in various situations in the various releases.  Sometimes it was the difference between getting any drop, sometimes the difference between getting a second drop or not, sometimes just the difference between how many planes in a wave got to drop - but I found the differences to be, on occasion, pretty substantial in the tiers I was playing.

I certainly found that torpedo-speed buff meant the difference between getting one torp hit per drop and getting two torp hits per drop on Ranger and Furious when targets were trying to evade.  And thinking about it, being able to get a tight attack-run crosshair with my Ranger rocket planes was contingent on me having sight stabilisation - without which I'd have to start attack runs on DDs that were out of detection range, and would lose tons of rockets into the water to RNG if I had to correct for evasive manoeuvres during the attack run.

Furious I could probably make work respectably with a 6-9 CP CO; but Ranger and to a lesser extent Ryujo both felt ineffectual to me unless I had at least 10 CO points put into a very specific build.

Not sure Shokaku's AP bombers could work in some of the recent patches without heavy specialisation (including +hp mod) into improving their survivability - and that's even including sling-shotting to try and guarantee one solid drop.

I got the impression, and I accept I'm quite possibly just plain wrong on this, that in some of the recent patches CVs were some of the boats most reliant on CO skills, probably second only to people deliberately speccing Secondaries on some ships.

[B051LjKo]

On 9/1/2019 at 5:39 AM, Sunleader said:

Guys. Lets make this Quick.

 

The New AA Rework SUCKS.

It has basicly Catapulted us back into 0.8.3 with CVs being Semi Godmode and there being 0 Counterplay against CVs.

 

We are back to CVs being the Death itself.

When I play as a CV right now. I dont need to Spend any Effort or have any Skill to completely Ruin someones Gameplay Experience.

 

Not really, I think it is OK now. As an example, I've tried to kill fully AA spec Friesland with Implacable. Could not do a thing, he wiped out several squadrons before I could do any meaningful damage. HE spams so many flak clouds that you just cant dodge them all. And I think that is the way it should be, if an AA cruiser goes fully AA, then he should be really difficult to kill. What we had so far is that AA was so strong, that you did not need to spec out to do monster damage.

Continuous DPS got down (as it should) and flaks are devastation, a dodgeable one, but still a devastation, as it should be. Wen you remove CVs from the game, you get sh!t, as seen in the last ranked, 80% of the games had at lease 3 DDs, and out of those at least half was with 4 or 5 dds per squad. That is just stupid, ad CVs are the best cure for that.

[Sunleader]

40 minutes ago, B051LjKo said:

Not really, I think it is OK now. As an example, I've tried to kill fully AA spec Friesland with Implacable. Could not do a thing, he wiped out several squadrons before I could do any meaningful damage. HE spams so many flak clouds that you just cant dodge them all. And I think that is the way it should be, if an AA cruiser goes fully AA, then he should be really difficult to kill. What we had so far is that AA was so strong, that you did not need to spec out to do monster damage.

Continuous DPS got down (as it should) and flaks are devastation, a dodgeable one, but still a devastation, as it should be. Wen you remove CVs from the game, you get sh!t, as seen in the last ranked, 80% of the games had at lease 3 DDs, and out of those at least half was with 4 or 5 dds per squad. That is just stupid, ad CVs are the best cure for that.

 

Thats Factually Wrong on so many levels...

 

1.

I have easily been Bombing T10 AA Cruisers with my Zeppelin as Shown in the Replays I posted earlier.

So that Statement is an outright Lie.

2.

I have Played till Rank 12 and the most DDs I had was 3 per Team.

Exactly ONCE others were 2 or 1 DD per Team which is perfectly reasonable.

3.

No. Ships cannot Dodge the Devastation from CVs. So CVs should not be able to Dodge AA.

CVs right now as Proven by me in the several Replays I posted.

Are pretty much Guaranteed to get a Strike through even against Groups as large as 5 Ships.

 

 

If you want to make such Claims I recommend you back them up.

Otherwise they are worthless.

[B051LjKo]

17 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

Thats Factually Wrong on so many levels...

Just because you do not agree with it, it oes not mean it is wrong

Quote

1.

I have easily been Bombing T10 AA Cruisers with my Zeppelin as Shown in the Replays I posted earlier.

So that Statement is an outright Lie.

We've seen that, Kamikaze run with wasting huge reserves to make a strike. That tactics will not work with any other CV. Try to do the same with Implacable or Saipan, and let me know the results. And even with that you ended up deplaned with 20-30K of damage done to the TIer X cruiser in question, so it wasn't really effective. 

Quote

2.

I have Played till Rank 12 and the most DDs I had was 3 per Team.

Exactly ONCE others were 2 or 1 DD per Team which is perfectly reasonable.

I've reached lv4, and had multiple games with 4 and 5 destryers. 3.5 was the average. Every 10 games I god one with 2 DDs, and every 20 I got the game with 1. That is ridiculous in 6 vs 6 matchup. Ideally, you would have 2 DDs, 2 CVs and 2 BBs. Not to mention 90% of the DDs were gunboats, and 60% of those were Kitakazes, with the rest spread between Black and Jutland. Torp DDs were one ship less for the team as there ere very few torpable targets. 

 

If CVs were allowed in (and Tier 8 CVs fit perfectly in a Tier 9 game), I bet that 2-2-2-1 would be ideal, and frequent matchmaking.

Quote

3.

No. Ships cannot Dodge the Devastation from CVs.

Yes they can, otherwise the average dmg of a Tier 8 CV would not be 50-60k of dmg, but 200-300K

Quote

So CVs should not be able to Dodge AA.

AA in real life was not there to shoot down the plane, but to affect his aim in 90%

Quote

CVs right now as Proven by me in the several Replays I posted.

Are pretty much Guaranteed to get a Strike through even against Groups as large as 5 Ships.

As it should be, a DD charging a blob of 5 ships will get the strike before they kill him. As it will BB rushing a blob, he will do some damage before he dies, and so will the planes. If you had a blob of 5 ships IRL being attacked by the squadron of 12 planes, chances that those ships will shot down all 12 before they drop their ordnance is close to zero. Since this is a game, ships are  far more effective in shooting down planes they they historically were, and that is OK, since this is a game.   What you are asking is that an AA cruiser is a permanent no fly zone capable of shooting down a whole squadron in a few seconds, well, I think that is just to much and not good for the game.

 

Quote

If you want to make such Claims I recommend you back them up.

Otherwise they are worthless.

What evidence do you seek?

[Sunleader]

3 hours ago, B051LjKo said:

Just because you do not agree with it, it oes not mean it is wrong

We've seen that, Kamikaze run with wasting huge reserves to make a strike. That tactics will not work with any other CV. Try to do the same with Implacable or Saipan, and let me know the results. And even with that you ended up deplaned with 20-30K of damage done to the TIer X cruiser in question, so it wasn't really effective. 

I've reached lv4, and had multiple games with 4 and 5 destryers. 3.5 was the average. Every 10 games I god one with 2 DDs, and every 20 I got the game with 1. That is ridiculous in 6 vs 6 matchup. Ideally, you would have 2 DDs, 2 CVs and 2 BBs. Not to mention 90% of the DDs were gunboats, and 60% of those were Kitakazes, with the rest spread between Black and Jutland. Torp DDs were one ship less for the team as there ere very few torpable targets. 

 

If CVs were allowed in (and Tier 8 CVs fit perfectly in a Tier 9 game), I bet that 2-2-2-1 would be ideal, and frequent matchmaking.

Yes they can, otherwise the average dmg of a Tier 8 CV would not be 50-60k of dmg, but 200-300K

AA in real life was not there to shoot down the plane, but to affect his aim in 90%

As it should be, a DD charging a blob of 5 ships will get the strike before they kill him. As it will BB rushing a blob, he will do some damage before he dies, and so will the planes. If you had a blob of 5 ships IRL being attacked by the squadron of 12 planes, chances that those ships will shot down all 12 before they drop their ordnance is close to zero. Since this is a game, ships are  far more effective in shooting down planes they they historically were, and that is OK, since this is a game.   What you are asking is that an AA cruiser is a permanent no fly zone capable of shooting down a whole squadron in a few seconds, well, I think that is just to much and not good for the game.

 

What evidence do you seek?

 

Facts are Facts.

They have nothing to do with Agreeing or Opinions.

Fact is that what you said there is Wrong.

 

1.

I see you have not Watched the Replays.

Graf Zeppelin has among the lowest Reserves of Aircraft in T8

in 0.8.6 I actually had to do Kamikaze Runs to Bomb a Minotaur. Because after I dropped I would have maybe 1-2 Aircraft left if any.

In 0.8.7 I can Bomb a Minotaur Twice with one Squadron.....

Thats a Simple Fact and Completely Ruining your Statement.

 

Its not Surprisng as a Result either. Because You can also Check the Factual Numbers and will Notice that Minotaur actually has 30% less Heavy Flak Explosions AND nearly 40% less Continues DPS.

This is the same for almost all Cruisers in the Game by the way.

And again. This is Simple Facts which can be Checked by comparing the Numbers.

It is not up for Discussion and does not change regardless of your Agreement.

 

2.

Evidence Please. Because otherwise your Statement is just empty Barking.

Likely your just Biased. You likely had like 2 Games with 5 DDs and 20 Games with 2 DDs.

But the ones with 5 DDs stuck out to you. So you bring them up.

Either that or your just lying on Purpose.

 

3.

They Cant.

And again this is a Fact.

A CV can Miss. But a Ship cannot Dodge.

You can in best case make yourself harder to hit.

 

3.1

This Statement is 33% True and 66% False.

There was Different AA Weapons serving Different Purposes.

Heavy AA was Generally Fired at Incoming Enemy Formations. Its Purpose was to Inflict Losses on the Enemy and Shoot down Planes. It had no Effect on Enemy Aiming.

Medium AA was Generally Fired at Incoming Aircraft attacking or passing the Ship. Its Purpose was to Shoot down Aircraft before they could Drop their Load. It had a Limited Effect on Aiming which was welcome but not Intentional.

Light AA was Generally Fired to Block Vectors. As Light AA was extremely Accurate and Deadly if an Aircraft came too close. It served as an Deterrent for the Aircraft. Making it harder for the Aircraft to Line up the Attack due to the Light AA blocking its Path.

 

As such most AA was actually Intended to Kill Aircraft.

Of course. The Threat of being Killed. Did also cause Pilots to choose Attack Angles and Vectors which were less Promising to Hit the Target but also much harder to Fire at for the Enemy AA.

3.2

Thats Factually Wrong.

A DD Charging a Blob of 5 Ships will Generally be Killed before he can do anything.

He must be extremely lucky to actually get a Strike off before being Killed in such an Action.

3.3

Reality is entirely Irrelevant to this.

But Yes.

In Fact in Reality it is very Likely that not a Single Aircraft would be Shot down.

Unfortunately for you. In Reality the Accuracy of Planes is Terrible as well.

Because Chances are that even after 3 Runs with 12 Aircraft you will still not have Scored a Single Hit.

Hitratio for Aircraft Dropped Bombs from Dive Bombers was 1%

For Torpedoes it was around 3%

Level Bombers had 0.0x%

Rockets were Generally not used against Ships.

 

So if you want to make this Realistic I am all for it.

Then CVs can effectively Fly over the entire Fleet barely losing any Aircraft.

But their Spread of Torpedoes and Bombs will basicly be a Circle roughly the Size of 20 Grosser Kurfürst :)

 

Also if we want to Talk about Reality. You will not get any Friend Foe Identification and no Accurate Spotting for Enemy Ships.

Because in Reality. Most Aircraft could not actually even tell a Battleship apart from a Destroyer due to how Bad their Vision was.

When Hunting the Bismarck. The British Aircraft actually Attacked an Allied Destroyer which Gladly was not Hit. And broke off Attack on another Friendly Vessel at the last Minute when they Realized that the Vessel was NOT firing AA at the.

3.4

Nope. An AA Cruiser which is 2 Tiers higher than the CV should be a No Fly Zone IF he is AA Specced and used the Sector Reinforcement Correctly.

An AA Cruiser of Equal Tier should at the very least Kill the Squadron Attacking him IF he is AA Specced and used the Sector Reinforcement Correctly. However he should only be able to kill it after the Squadron Dropped.

 

You Complain that there is a No Fly Zone.

But thats Hypocritical like f*** because your Demanding that a CV is Guaranteed to always strike which is the same thing.

 

4.

A Replay of your Game against the Friesland would be a Great Start.

Then we can See if the Friesland really was such an AA Monster that you could not possibly Drop it and have your Squadron Deleted before you could do any real Damage to it. 

Because no Offense. But putting it Bluntly. I do not Believe you.

 

 

[B051LjKo]

6 hours ago, Sunleader said:

 

Facts are Facts.

They have nothing to do with Agreeing or Opinions.

Fact is that what you said there is Wrong.

Correct, so please respect the facts that Tier 8 carriers on average do between 50k and 60k of damage, which on average is not enough to kill a single BB. And CVs are suppose to be natural counters to BBs. If they were godlike, the damage on average would be at least double those nubers. Can good CV captains do 2x+ the average, ofcourse they can, but so can the unicum captains of any other class.

 

6 hours ago, Sunleader said:

1.

I see you have not Watched the Replays.

Graf Zeppelin has among the lowest Reserves of Aircraft in T8

in 0.8.6 I actually had to do Kamikaze Runs to Bomb a Minotaur. Because after I dropped I would have maybe 1-2 Aircraft left if any.

In 0.8.7 I can Bomb a Minotaur Twice with one Squadron.....

Thats a Simple Fact and Completely Ruining your Statement.

And that is a good thing, it was completely redicolous prior to 8.7 

6 hours ago, Sunleader said:

Its not Surprisng as a Result either. Because You can also Check the Factual Numbers and will Notice that Minotaur actually has 30% less Heavy Flak Explosions AND nearly 40% less Continues DPS.

This is the same for almost all Cruisers in the Game by the way.

And again. This is Simple Facts which can be Checked by comparing the Numbers.

It is not up for Discussion and does not change regardless of your Agreement.

Which is exactly why the game has improved so much after 8.7. As AA has been put in reasonable frames.

 

6 hours ago, Sunleader said:

2.

Evidence Please. Because otherwise your Statement is just empty Barking.

Likely your just Biased. You likely had like 2 Games with 5 DDs and 20 Games with 2 DDs.

But the ones with 5 DDs stuck out to you. So you bring them up.

Either that or your just lying on Purpose.

Jesus, ask anyone who played ranks on what was the absolutely dominant ship. You even have Notser on that french DD review stating the same thing. If you want to believe that 3-4 dd per round games were really rare, what can I say aobut that. I am not that good with stats, so if anyone can pull the numbers from the last ranked season, that would be great,

6 hours ago, Sunleader said:

3.

They Cant.

And again this is a Fact.

A CV can Miss. But a Ship cannot Dodge.

You can in best case make yourself harder to hit.

Sorry, If you are telling me that a ship can not dodge the attack, well, we are not playing the same. WASD hax works, believe it or not. THe only reliable weapon against DDs are rocket planes, torps are useless, AP bombs are useless, level bombing is useless, and HE dive bombers are RNG. If a DD is smard, and is WASD haxing while shutting down its AA to remain stealth, even rocket planes are not that easy to hit.

 

6 hours ago, Sunleader said:

3.1

This Statement is 33% True and 66% False.

There was Different AA Weapons serving Different Purposes.

Heavy AA was Generally Fired at Incoming Enemy Formations. Its Purpose was to Inflict Losses on the Enemy and Shoot down Planes. It had no Effect on Enemy Aiming.

Medium AA was Generally Fired at Incoming Aircraft attacking or passing the Ship. Its Purpose was to Shoot down Aircraft before they could Drop their Load. It had a Limited Effect on Aiming which was welcome but not Intentional.

Light AA was Generally Fired to Block Vectors. As Light AA was extremely Accurate and Deadly if an Aircraft came too close. It served as an Deterrent for the Aircraft. Making it harder for the Aircraft to Line up the Attack due to the Light AA blocking its Path.

Not really, high caliber flank walls were used to brake the bomber formations, and they did that with much more success that shooting them down. Low caliber guns were not nowhere as close to effective. In fact, even the best medium caliber AA gun of the was (40 mm bofors) was being replaced by dual 75 mm as the former lacked the punch to shot down the attackers.

 

6 hours ago, Sunleader said:

3.2

Thats Factually Wrong.

A DD Charging a Blob of 5 Ships will Generally be Killed before he can do anything.

He must be extremely lucky to actually get a Strike off before being Killed in such an Action.

Ha? Are we playing the same game? Any DD can perform a successful attack even against radar cruisers if they launch from a reasonable distance (like 8-9 km). If the blob is without the radar, it is even easier. DD can come as close as 6 km and fire for an almost guaranteed hit. In addition ad smoke, or speed if spamming from distance. All in all, DDs are in a much better position in attacking blobs than cruisers who will get obliterated if they try to do the same thing without an island in front. 

6 hours ago, Sunleader said:

3.3

Reality is entirely Irrelevant to this.

But Yes.

In Fact in Reality it is very Likely that not a Single Aircraft would be Shot down.

Unfortunately for you. In Reality the Accuracy of Planes is Terrible as well.

Because Chances are that even after 3 Runs with 12 Aircraft you will still not have Scored a Single Hit.

Hitratio for Aircraft Dropped Bombs from Dive Bombers was 1%

For Torpedoes it was around 3%

Level Bombers had 0.0x%

Rockets were Generally not used against Ships.

 

So if you want to make this Realistic I am all for it.

Then CVs can effectively Fly over the entire Fleet barely losing any Aircraft.

But their Spread of Torpedoes and Bombs will basicly be a Circle roughly the Size of 20 Grosser Kurfürst :)

Yup, but the add in the account that the planes will not be flying around for fun with only 2 or 3 dropping their ordnance. But all of them at the same time. Add in that a single torps is usually enough to put the ship out of action, and that two or three torps are enough to sink it. This is not a simulation. The aiming is way to good, the planes are way to slow, and the damage done is way to small. All for the sake of balance in an arcade game. 

6 hours ago, Sunleader said:

Also if we want to Talk about Reality. You will not get any Friend Foe Identification and no Accurate Spotting for Enemy Ships.

Because in Reality. Most Aircraft could not actually even tell a Battleship apart from a Destroyer due to how Bad their Vision was.

When Hunting the Bismarck. The British Aircraft actually Attacked an Allied Destroyer which Gladly was not Hit. And broke off Attack on another Friendly Vessel at the last Minute when they Realized that the Vessel was NOT firing AA at the.

Shall we talk then about smoking your self and shooting through smoke with perfect accuracy just because someone else is seeing the target? Shall we talk about DDs reloading their torpedo tubes in 60 seconds with infinite ammo. Shall we talk about miraculous repairs in seconds time. Shall we talk about listing and rough sea not affecting the aim? I think that is the pointless direction, as it will not lead anywhere. 

6 hours ago, Sunleader said:

3.4

Nope. An AA Cruiser which is 2 Tiers higher than the CV should be a No Fly Zone IF he is AA Specced and used the Sector Reinforcement Correctly.

An AA Cruiser of Equal Tier should at the very least Kill the Squadron Attacking him IF he is AA Specced and used the Sector Reinforcement Correctly. However he should only be able to kill it after the Squadron Dropped.

OK, do you agree that a BB or a DD which is 2 tiers below the CV should be in a no float zone when being intercepted by a CV? I bet you would not like that.

6 hours ago, Sunleader said:

You Complain that there is a No Fly Zone.

But thats Hypocritical like f*** because your Demanding that a CV is Guaranteed to always strike which is the same thing.

Not really, if CVs were guaranteed to always strike and hit, they would not be making 50-60K of damage in average in a tier 8.

6 hours ago, Sunleader said:

4.

A Replay of your Game against the Friesland would be a Great Start.

Then we can See if the Friesland really was such an AA Monster that you could not possibly Drop it and have your Squadron Deleted before you could do any real Damage to it. 

Because no Offense. But putting it Bluntly. I do not Believe you.

 

 

I am not sure if I have it, will check later, but if I have the save relays enabled on my laptop, It should be there as this happened just a few battles ago. But it should not be that difficult to check it, just get one guy with fully AA spec Friesland in the training room, and try to attack, you will see what am I talking about.

[El2aZeR]

3 hours ago, B051LjKo said:

Correct, so please respect the facts that Tier 8 carriers on average do between 50k and 60k of damage, which on average is not enough to kill a single BB.

 

High tier DDs deal only 37k damage.

Buff DDs I suppose.

 

Average damage alone is a worthless stat. Not even WG uses it for balancing.

 

3 hours ago, B051LjKo said:

WASD hax works, believe it or not.

 

Objectively wrong. If you have difficulty hitting DDs with rockets, even ones who shut off their AA, you're incompetent. Has nothing to do with CVs themselves.

 

3 hours ago, B051LjKo said:

But it should not be that difficult to check it, just get one guy with fully AA spec Friesland in the training room, and try to attack, you will see what am I talking about.

 

Friesland has less AA than a Colorado.

If you can attack a Colorado, you can attack a Friesland.

[Padds01]

@B051LjKo your wasting your time mate , they will not accept the simple existance of experinces other than thier own

[El2aZeR]

10 minutes ago, Padds01 said:

@B051LjKo your wasting your time mate , they will not accept the simple existance of experinces other than thier own

 

More like your refusal to just git gud invalidates yours, Mr. "OMG flak can't be dodged!"

[B051LjKo]

30 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

High tier DDs deal only 37k damage.

Buff DDs I suppose.

Individually. With two DDs per mach they already out-damage the CV by a big margin.

30 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Average damage alone is a worthless stat. Not even WG uses it for balancing.

Ah, so we are back to ''passive spotting is the most relevant stat of them all''

30 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Objectively wrong. If you have difficulty hitting DDs with rockets, even ones who shut off their AA, you're incompetent. Has nothing to do with CVs themselves.

Excuse me mr. ''I can kill a fully AA spec Grozo in three salvos, as 10K per salvo is something I regularly get'', not everyone is in the same league as you are. Normally people are lucky if they get a 3-4K salvo against a DD that knows what he is doing. And yes, what rockets you are using makes a difference, for example, it is not easy to hit small targets with Saipan TinyTimy, not at all. For a normal player, your an the rest of the Gods from Olympus is not in the same league, obviously. 

30 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Friesland has less AA than a Colorado.

If you can attack a Colorado, you can attack a Friesland.

I did not know that Colorado can raise as many flak clouds as Friesland. Of course that means nothing to you. As a pro player, you can fly through 20 clouds with not even a scratch, but normal people have issues with it. Not to mention that Colorado is a huge and slow target, but again, that is irrelevant as RNG does not apply to you. You can easily land 5 out of 6 Midway HE bombs on a Friesland in the worst case scenario, with 6 out of 6 being nothing spectacular after understanding how RNG works. When you can do that with dive bombers, rockets are as easy as steeling candy from a baby. Hell, with the level of your skill, I would not be surprise if you land 15 out of 18 bombs on a Kagero with Audacious. Ok, maybe I exaggerate, but 12 out of 18 is a no brainer for you.

[El2aZeR]

4 minutes ago, B051LjKo said:

Individually. With two DDs per mach they already out-damage the CV by a big margin.

 

Ah, so a CV needs to be more powerful than other classes solely because there are fewer of them in the match?

That's too bad, DDs need buffing by that logic as well.

 

6 minutes ago, B051LjKo said:

Ah, so we are back to ''passive spotting is the most relevant stat of them all''

 

*citation needed*

 

6 minutes ago, B051LjKo said:

not everyone is in the same league as you are.

 

Irrelevant. Everyone can git gud. If you do not then you simply do not deserve to be successful.

 

Also as of 0.8.7 Grozo AA is equivalent to T5-6.

 

8 minutes ago, B051LjKo said:

As a pro player, you can fly through 20 clouds with not even a scratch, but normal people have issues with it.

 

Again irrelevant. It is proven that flak is near 100% dodgeable. If you are incapable of doing so you neither deserve to be successful nor do you have the right to complain about it.

[B051LjKo]

13 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Ah, so a CV needs to be more powerful than other classes solely because there are fewer of them in the match?

That's too bad, DDs need buffing by that logic as well.

CV needs to be more powerful than a DD due to multiple reasons.

1.) There should only be 1 CV per side, where ieal DD count is 2 - 3

2) CV probably costs more than 30 DDs to build

3) CV needs 10 times the number of people to operate it

 

So yes, asking that  a single CV is more powerful than a DD, I do not think of it as an unreasonable request. It actually makes sense. 

 

13 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

*citation needed*

Every single overpowered ship outhere (Kremlin, Stalingrad, etc) has higher average dmg per game then its siblings. But as per you, that does not mean a thing. 

13 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Irrelevant. Everyone can git gud. If you do not then you simply do not deserve to be successful.

Well I say that a good DD play can dodge CV attacks pretty difficult. You say DDs ae irrelevant and helpless, a DD cant do anything but die when CV focuses him, who m I to oppose you.  

13 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Also as of 0.8.7 Grozo AA is equivalent to T5-6.

Grozo iz a Tier X, probably after Friesland the best AA DD in the game. So it is equivalent to Tier X AA.

13 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Again irrelevant. It is proven that flak is near 100% dodgeable. If you are incapable of doing so you neither deserve to be successful nor do you have the right to complain about it.

Yes when there is 2 or 4 clouds, with 8 or more , that is not easy, especially when turning, maneuvering for the second run, etc. I mean not so easy for an average player. For El2RaZer it is a walk in the park. Hell, even the game code is intimidated by El2RaZer, so when you enter the flak cloud, you receive no damage as the cloud is to scared and intimidated to touch him.

 

[KillStealBoss]

50 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

 

Also as of 0.8.7 Grozo AA is equivalent to T5-6.

 

Depends what T5-6 ship you mean. Dallas? 

[B051LjKo]

2 hours ago, MacArthur92 said:

Depends what T5-6 ship you mean. Dallas? 

I would say more like Minekaze

[El2aZeR]

3 hours ago, B051LjKo said:

So yes, asking that  a single CV is more powerful than a DD, I do not think of it as an unreasonable request. It actually makes sense. 

 

Out of 3 reasons 2 are based on realism and thus irrelevant to an arcade game.

And the other one doesn't hold up either as it is completely flawed reasoning. Just because something is the most numerous class doesn't mean it has to be the weakest. Otherwise BBs would have to get nerfed hard.

 

3 hours ago, B051LjKo said:

Every single overpowered ship outhere (Kremlin, Stalingrad, etc) has higher average dmg per game then its siblings. But as per you, that does not mean a thing. 

 

No, it doesn't.

In terms of damage what matters is effective damage. Blindly quoting average damage is thus indeed worthless, otherwise Conqueror would one of the most powerful BBs by quite the margin yet she clearly is not.

 

3 hours ago, B051LjKo said:

Well I say that a good DD play can dodge CV attacks pretty difficult.

 

Except again, a DD cannot dodge. A CV on the other hand can miss.

Hence why any difficulty you may have is entirely on you.

 

3 hours ago, B051LjKo said:

Grozo iz a Tier X, probably after Friesland the best AA DD in the game. So it is equivalent to Tier X AA.

 

Wrong. Kidd has the 2nd best AA, followed by Gearing. And Kidd AA is equivalent to some T6 ships, while Grozo AA sits between T5 and T6.

Just compare the actual DPS values. What tier these ships are on is entirely irrelevant to a CV as only their AA matters.

 

3 hours ago, B051LjKo said:

I mean not so easy for an average player. For El2RaZer it is a walk in the park. Hell, even the game code is intimidated by El2RaZer, so when you enter the flak cloud, you receive no damage as the cloud is to scared and intimidated to touch him.

 

Which again is entirely irrelevant. Average players who do not play at peak capacity do not deserve to have the same efficiency as someone who does.

And it is in fact possible to fly through flak without taking damage due to how flak works. Observe:

Spoiler

 

 

No damage on first flak wall. Completely expected behavior if you know the workings of flak mechanics.

[El2aZeR]

3 hours ago, MacArthur92 said:

Depends what T5-6 ship you mean. Dallas? 

12 minutes ago, B051LjKo said:

I would say more like Minekaze

 

On 9/3/2019 at 9:23 PM, El2aZeR said:

Grozo combined true base DPS: 264

Kidd combined true base DPS: 286

Pyotr Velikiy combined true base DPS: 264

New Mexico combined true base DPS: 266

Nürnberg combined true base DPS: 329

Queen Elizabeth combined true base DPS: 317

[KillStealBoss]

2 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

But you consider it has also a Def AA so cant be compared exactly to NM or other T6 BB....

[El2aZeR]

4 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

But you consider it has also a Def AA so cant be compared exactly to NM or other T6 BB....

 

~390 DPS isn't exactly impressive either.

[B051LjKo]

9 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Out of 3 reasons 2 are based on realism and thus irrelevant to an arcade game.

 

Not really, they do stick to some basic participles, and will never include Millennium Falcon, Flying Battleships, and we will never see a Kagero size ship with guns that have penetration of the 18.1'' guns. 

 

 

9 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

And the other one doesn't hold up either as it is completely flawed reasoning. Just because something is the most numerous class doesn't mean it has to be the weakest. Otherwise BBs would have to get nerfed hard.

Who said anything about DDs being weakest? If a class is not at the top damage wise, it does not mean that is is the weakest one. It has its trades.

 

9 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

No, it doesn't.

In terms of damage what matters is effective damage. Blindly quoting average damage is thus indeed worthless, otherwise Conqueror would one of the most powerful BBs by quite the margin yet she clearly is not.

Well, Conqueror is one of the best BBs out there, no question about it. And the difference between average and effective damage on a CV with AP dive bombers is very intriguing. 

9 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Except again, a DD cannot dodge.

Of course they an. They just have to use WASD hax and switch off AA to prevent you from aiming them. IT i not that difficult. You should try it sometimes.

9 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

A CV on the other hand can miss.

Depends on the captain, I do not think you are capable of missing a target if you really want to hit it.

9 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Wrong. Kidd has the 2nd best AA, followed by Gearing. And Kidd AA is equivalent to some T6 ships, while Grozo AA sits between T5 and T6.

Just compare the actual DPS values. What tier these ships are on is entirely irrelevant to a CV as only their AA matters.

DPS is only one aspect of it.

9 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Which again is entirely irrelevant. Average players who do not play at peak capacity do not deserve to have the same efficiency as someone who does.

Who said anything about same efficiency of a unicum and a potato? If that was the case, potatos would not average half or 1/3rd of what unicum can do. I really do not see your point here

9 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

And it is in fact possible to fly through flak without taking damage due to how flak works. Observe:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

No damage on first flak wall. Completely expected behavior if you know the workings of flak mechanics.

I told you that flak an not touch you.

[El2aZeR]

2 hours ago, B051LjKo said:

Not really, they do stick to some basic participles, and will never include Millennium Falcon, Flying Battleships, and we will never see a Kagero size ship with guns that have penetration of the 18.1'' guns. 

 

Except we do actually have spacecraft and "flying" BBs (both as a skin and as a funny bug) ingame. WG has also ed around with some penetration values vs irl penetration capability.

Beyond the basic setting realism doesn't play any part.

 

2 hours ago, B051LjKo said:

Who said anything about DDs being weakest? If a class is not at the top damage wise, it does not mean that is is the weakest one. It has its trades.

 

Precisely. It has to do with role distribution, not numbers.

Hence why the numbers argument is flawed.

 

2 hours ago, B051LjKo said:

Well, Conqueror is one of the best BBs out there, no question about it. And the difference between average and effective damage on a CV with AP dive bombers is very intriguing.

 

Except she maintains a poor WR despite big damage numbers because the damage she causes isn't very effective.

Which is also why AP bombs are currently superior to HE ones. Not only do they cause more damage overall, it also cannot be recovered as easily.

 

2 hours ago, B051LjKo said:

Of course they an. They just have to use WASD hax and switch off AA to prevent you from aiming them. IT i not that difficult. You should try it sometimes.

 

Some basic prediction skills negate that completely.

 

2 hours ago, B051LjKo said:

DPS is only one aspect of it.

 

Again, flak is completely irrelevant unless you're incapable of dodging, at which point you simply have to learn to dodge.

 

2 hours ago, B051LjKo said:

Who said anything about same efficiency of a unicum and a potato? If that was the case, potatos would not average half or 1/3rd of what unicum can do. I really do not see your point here

 

Point is if a unicum can do something, that means such a level of performance is achievable. That a potato cannot something becomes entirely irrelevant at this point because a potato is not meant to perform on the same or even close to the level of a unicum.

As such it is perfectly fine that potatoes have difficulties. All they need to do is improve.

 

2 hours ago, B051LjKo said:

I told you that flak an not touch you.

 

That's not me playing.

And you can do that too. It's not that hard.

[Obsessive_Compulsive]

reading this entire thread, one thing is very clear to me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

its time for bed....

[Sunleader]

15 hours ago, B051LjKo said:

Correct, so please respect the facts that Tier 8 carriers on average do between 50k and 60k of damage, which on average is not enough to kill a single BB. And CVs are suppose to be natural counters to BBs. If they were godlike, the damage on average would be at least double those nubers. Can good CV captains do 2x+ the average, ofcourse they can, but so can the unicum captains of any other class.

 

And that is a good thing, it was completely redicolous prior to 8.7 

Which is exactly why the game has improved so much after 8.7. As AA has been put in reasonable frames.

 

Jesus, ask anyone who played ranks on what was the absolutely dominant ship. You even have Notser on that french DD review stating the same thing. If you want to believe that 3-4 dd per round games were really rare, what can I say aobut that. I am not that good with stats, so if anyone can pull the numbers from the last ranked season, that would be great,

Sorry, If you are telling me that a ship can not dodge the attack, well, we are not playing the same. WASD hax works, believe it or not. THe only reliable weapon against DDs are rocket planes, torps are useless, AP bombs are useless, level bombing is useless, and HE dive bombers are RNG. If a DD is smard, and is WASD haxing while shutting down its AA to remain stealth, even rocket planes are not that easy to hit.

 

Not really, high caliber flank walls were used to brake the bomber formations, and they did that with much more success that shooting them down. Low caliber guns were not nowhere as close to effective. In fact, even the best medium caliber AA gun of the was (40 mm bofors) was being replaced by dual 75 mm as the former lacked the punch to shot down the attackers.

 

Ha? Are we playing the same game? Any DD can perform a successful attack even against radar cruisers if they launch from a reasonable distance (like 8-9 km). If the blob is without the radar, it is even easier. DD can come as close as 6 km and fire for an almost guaranteed hit. In addition ad smoke, or speed if spamming from distance. All in all, DDs are in a much better position in attacking blobs than cruisers who will get obliterated if they try to do the same thing without an island in front. 

Yup, but the add in the account that the planes will not be flying around for fun with only 2 or 3 dropping their ordnance. But all of them at the same time. Add in that a single torps is usually enough to put the ship out of action, and that two or three torps are enough to sink it. This is not a simulation. The aiming is way to good, the planes are way to slow, and the damage done is way to small. All for the sake of balance in an arcade game. 

Shall we talk then about smoking your self and shooting through smoke with perfect accuracy just because someone else is seeing the target? Shall we talk about DDs reloading their torpedo tubes in 60 seconds with infinite ammo. Shall we talk about miraculous repairs in seconds time. Shall we talk about listing and rough sea not affecting the aim? I think that is the pointless direction, as it will not lead anywhere. 

OK, do you agree that a BB or a DD which is 2 tiers below the CV should be in a no float zone when being intercepted by a CV? I bet you would not like that.

Not really, if CVs were guaranteed to always strike and hit, they would not be making 50-60K of damage in average in a tier 8.

I am not sure if I have it, will check later, but if I have the save relays enabled on my laptop, It should be there as this happened just a few battles ago. But it should not be that difficult to check it, just get one guy with fully AA spec Friesland in the training room, and try to attack, you will see what am I talking about.

 

 

I  see that your coming with the usual Excuse of Average Damage which tells you absolutely nothing if you dont place the Damage in Context.

If you Place the Damage in Context you notice. CVs have 1600-2200 Average Experience. BBs meanwhile only have 1200-1700 Average Experience.

In case you dont know. The Reason for that is really Simple. Damage on DDs is worth 4 times as much as Damage on BBs. Because Killing Enemy DDs has a much higher Influence on the Match.

Good CVs Focus Enemy DDs. So they wont get such Super High Damage Numbers. But they will Win the Game.

 

 

What I dont see however is any Replays to actually back up the Ridiculous Claims you make.

As such I will Proceed to Ignore your Post.

No Offense Intended. But you have been Repeating your Claims and Opinions over and over. And over and over I as well as others have Proven you wrong with Facts backed up by Replays and Screenshots.

I see no Reason to pay any further Attention to your claims when you wont even bother trying to back them up and instead just keep repeating them senselessly despite them being proven wrong.

 

 

Greetz Sun

 

 

[Padds01]

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

 

The Reason for that is really Simple. Damage on DDs is worth 4 times as much as Damage on BBs. Because Killing Enemy DDs has a much higher Influence on the Match.

 

 

 

Actually its because XP for damage is done on % not numeric value.  

[Chiledip]

How effective CVs are seems to have little  effect on WG's balance. That seems to be CV population. If population is not X%, CVs are made more OP and AA nerfed until population reaches said X%. This seemed to be the message coming from the CC conference. Now if you combine this with a class which isn't that fun to play,what are you going to get? An endless cycle of poor game design and threads  like this.

 

If WG set themselves a metric for success of the CV rework that is X%,this is the driver behind all of this chaos.This isn't WG struggling to balance CVs, this is WG struggling to get enough people to play the class because it isn't that fun for most people. Basically WG are manipulating meaningless metrics to measure the success of their poor design decisions. Short term goals are more important than the big picture as per usuual. 

 

Balance is way down the list of priorities for WG.It is normally just an afterthought. I am sure the russian BBs will be balanced once the majority have grinded the line,bought the accompanying premium ships and camos. The imbalance is there by design. My feedback for WG is that I admire the fact that they can nurture a playerbase who are willing to argue that something is balanced when it clearly (and in this case overtly) isn't. Genius!

[Sunleader]

6 hours ago, Padds01 said:

 

Actually its because XP for damage is done on % not numeric value.  

 

Correct :)

And BBs Generally have  around 4 times as much HP as DDs. Which is why Damage on DDs is worth 4 times as much Exp as on BBs :)