aa rework Feedback on the new AA System.

[Pikkozoikum]

2 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

Not really people. Just three Guys  basically. 

 

And this particular one is especially keen on getting his German BBs buffed. And if that won’t work he can still whine about CVs as likely one scratched his paint  

There are enough people, who complain, but many are not that active in the forum. But this thread is actually about the new AA system, I was just telling, that I like it :)

[Ace42X]

On 9/1/2019 at 11:39 AM, Sunleader said:

See Guys.

I am an Average Casual Potato.

(...)

 

 

And I am not even Playing Seriously.

 

Ah, but are you an Average Casual Potato with 13+ skillpoint captains?  For the higher tier ships, you'd expect your opponents to have stronger captains, but on the Tier 6s like you'd be fighting in your Furious you're going to be seeing plenty of captains with ~8cps (maybe even less if they inadvisedly keep lower-tier ships and their captains).  I only just got my Kaga / Shokaku captain to 13 CPs and thus plane armour, and that's a Tier8, for context.

 

Having SE + plane armour skills (not to mention speed and in some cases concealment to improve survivability) makes a massive difference to survivability irrespective of who is a potato and what ship is pumping out AA.

 

By the same token at Tier 6 (and again, to a lesser extent early Tier8) people trying to build an AA spec might be struggling to put the pieces together given that AFAIK the AA module is still broken and competing with Aiming mod, given that BFT and AFT are competing with Superintendent, Demo Expert, Vigilance; and Concealment Expert respectively.  This is exacerbated by the low CV population making AA builds less than desirable when you're gimping yourself in matches when there simply aren't any planes to shoot at.

Are you a casual potato who knows how to sling-shot?  Because that's some fundamental skill-indexing that truly casual potato players can't be expected to know about without doing out-of-game research.

Not to diminish your performance, or anything, which is far better than mine (got any videos to watch?  I'd be interested to see how you're farming some of these numbers), especially at T10 when a lot of these issues should somewhat fall away, but is it possible that there's more going on here than "AA is weak"?

Also, pretty sure it's going to get a buff now there's been a hard reboot.




 

[RAHJAILARI]

On 9/1/2019 at 12:01 PM, Pikkozoikum said:

But Wargaming said, they want adjust the extremes. Thus ships like DM, Mino and Worcester get worse obvioulsy. But super aa-weak ships are now a bit better as well. As long as I tested ships like Aoba

This is true. I never used to be able to shoot anything down with my Aoba, even with the flag and DefAA or at the most it would only be 1 or 2. Now i have managed up to 4, even without relying on other ship's a AA to support my own. Hooray! Good news for my IJN Cruiser line fore sure, but not so cheery for my USN CA/CL's though. But I don't really mind so far, I feel they have not been nerfed so far as to be utterly useless. Still can make an impact, just as long as I remember not to try and Yolo-rush a CV...

[Sunleader]

1 hour ago, Ace42X said:

 

Ah, but are you an Average Casual Potato with 13+ skillpoint captains?  For the higher tier ships, you'd expect your opponents to have stronger captains, but on the Tier 6s like you'd be fighting in your Furious you're going to be seeing plenty of captains with ~8cps (maybe even less if they inadvisedly keep lower-tier ships and their captains).  I only just got my Kaga / Shokaku captain to 13 CPs and thus plane armour, and that's a Tier8, for context.

 

Having SE + plane armour skills (not to mention speed and in some cases concealment to improve survivability) makes a massive difference to survivability irrespective of who is a potato and what ship is pumping out AA.

 

By the same token at Tier 6 (and again, to a lesser extent early Tier8) people trying to build an AA spec might be struggling to put the pieces together given that AFAIK the AA module is still broken and competing with Aiming mod, given that BFT and AFT are competing with Superintendent, Demo Expert, Vigilance; and Concealment Expert respectively.  This is exacerbated by the low CV population making AA builds less than desirable when you're gimping yourself in matches when there simply aren't any planes to shoot at.

Are you a casual potato who knows how to sling-shot?  Because that's some fundamental skill-indexing that truly casual potato players can't be expected to know about without doing out-of-game research.

Not to diminish your performance, or anything, which is far better than mine (got any videos to watch?  I'd be interested to see how you're farming some of these numbers), especially at T10 when a lot of these issues should somewhat fall away, but is it possible that there's more going on here than "AA is weak"?

Also, pretty sure it's going to get a buff now there's been a hard reboot.




 

 

1.

Yep.

I am an Average Casual Potato.

Maybe not look at only the Statistics of the Ridiculously Overpowered CVs where any Noob can get Great Stats in (except Winrate because the Enemy has an Just as Overpowered CV on their Team)

And take a look at my General Stats and also my "Pre Rework" CV Stats.

Maybe then you Realize just why CVs are so Ridiculously Overpowered when someone like me can get such Numbers so easily despite only having started Playing CVs a few Months ago.

 

2.

For the Furious this would be Half True. Because I used an Azur Lane Captain from the Start.

So I started with a 10 Point Captain.

But no Offense. This doesnt make this much Difference Really.

I actually played before the Azur Lane Event as well. So when the Azur Lane Event came around and I was leveling my Japanese CVs. I actually replaced 12 point and higher Captains with 10 Point Azur Lane Captains for the Fun of it.

 

You get alot of Captain Exp for Playing CVs. So these Captains tend to Level Really Really Fast.

 

3.

I know how to Slingshot mostly from the Forum here. As others in this Forum have Demonstrated it.

But please be Aware. I consider Slingshot Drops an Exploit. And thus do not use it.

It is not Required for CVs to Slingshot either. AA is far too weak right now as that I would even consider using such Tactics.

This also Includes Squad Shortening. Which I am not using right now as well. Because its a Waste of Time with the current Pitiful AA.

 

If you want Evidence for that.  I did have a Good Game Yesterday. And your Free to Confirm that I did it entirely without Shortening my Squads and entirely without using Slingshot Drops.

https://replayswows.com/replay/62110#stats

 

4.

Hmm.

Videos of T10 Battles.

Well why not.

 

I will use 2 of my Replays from Yesterday.

Because I dont have much time to Play right now. And need to play Cruisers for the Directives.

Therefore I only got the Replays and no Statistic Screens for these. As I did not consider these 2 Battles good enough to Store the Screenshots.

 

 

4.1

This one is a Fairly Easy Enemy Setup.

The Enemy has a few T10 Ships. And I am mostly using Opportunities and Disturb the Enemy.

As well as Finishing Retreating Enemies or Covered Enemies so they cant become a Problem later.

As the Enemy does not have alot of very Strong AA Ships except the Stalingrad. (Yes I do not consider the T9 Cruisers like Seattle Good AA Ships even tough they supposedly should be...)

The Match itself actually Runs fairly Easy for me with little Resistance aside from the Blob behind the Island where the Stalingrad Sits.

 

20190902_143659_PGSA518-Graf-Zeppelin_15_NE_north.wowsreplay

 

4.2

If your Really interested in using my Video for Advice. I would Advise the following one.

Because this one is Literally HELL for a T8 CV.  The Enemy Team is made up of mostly T9 and T10 Ships with very Good AA.

Montana, 2xJean Bart, SowjetSoyus, Minotaur, Moskwa and then some further Additions with at least Decent AA like Alaska and North Carolina.

Literally the only 2 Ships on the Enemy Team which dont Boast Pretty Big AA. (At least Supposedly because currently even the AA of a Minotaur is rather Weak) are the Yugumo and the Hipper.

 

You will notice. Despite the Enemy Team having Supposedly some of the Best AA Ships and having lots of Good AA Ships. I still do not use Slingshot and I do not Shorten my Squadrons.

 

For most Part what I do is the same as always. Move to Focus Isolated Enemy Ships and trying to Light up the Enemy DDs repeatedly to keep my Team aware of their Rough Position and possibly give them some Pot Shots at them.

Something I do again. Is to Target Ships that are Retreating or in Cover with Low HP to take them out of the Game.

 

Well. See for yourself how I handle it when the Enemy Team is such a Horror Setup for a T8 CV.

 

20190902_135659_PGSA518-Graf-Zeppelin_37_Ridge.wowsreplay

 

 

 

[Pikkozoikum]

3 hours ago, RAHJAILARI said:

This is true. I never used to be able to shoot anything down with my Aoba, even with the flag and DefAA or at the most it would only be 1 or 2. Now i have managed up to 4, even without relying on other ship's a AA to support my own. Hooray! Good news for my IJN Cruiser line fore sure, but not so cheery for my USN CA/CL's though. But I don't really mind so far, I feel they have not been nerfed so far as to be utterly useless. Still can make an impact, just as long as I remember not to try and Yolo-rush a CV...

It's always important to consider, that multiple ships still can group. If every ship get a overbuffed AA, groups would become invincible. Moving around alone against a CV is most likely then showing broadside to a BB. But even if someone moves around alone, its still possible do shoot down planes and dodge attacks

[BanzaiPiluso]

Groups are AA strong, but vulnerable to torps and in general bad lemming train strategy.

 

[Sunleader]

27 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

It's always important to consider, that multiple ships still can group. If every ship get a overbuffed AA, groups would become invincible. Moving around alone against a CV is most likely then showing broadside to a BB. But even if someone moves around alone, its still possible do shoot down planes and dodge attacks

 

Groups might have Strong AA. But they become Susceptible to a range of other Problems.

Most of all Torpedoes.

 

To begin with there being a way to become "Invincible" against a certain Strategy is completely Normal.

Thats how ALL other Classes in the Game Work.

If the Enemy uses a certain Strategy that Counters them. The Enemy will be near Invincible for that one Class. But will become Susceptible for others.

 

 

For example.

Bow in and Reverse is a Great Strategy when your Dealing with Enemy BBs.

Especially at Medium to low Range your becoming almost Immune to Damage from them.

And due to the low Profile your also Reasonably Well Protected from Long Range Torpedoes.

But you become very Vulnearble to HE Spamming Cruisers and DDs in Exchange.

 

Meanwhile the other way of Driving either ZigZag or Diagonal to the Enemy. Angling yourself as often as possible. Is a Great Way of making yourself much harder to Hit for the Slow Flying High Angle HE Spam of Cruisers.

But ZigZagging while giving a Reasonable Protection from Torpedoes makes you Vulnearble to Citadel Hits from Enemy BBs.

While Diagonal Angling gives you reasonable Protection against Citadels but makes you an Easy Target for Torpedoes.

 

 

 

Why should CVs be better than other Classes and Should be Guaranteed to be Effective at all times ?

Why should CVs be the only Class in the Game which cannot be Specifically Countered by some Strategies ?

 

 

Just like your other Post where you Defend CVs being Powerful by talking about how you can Cost a CV Time so he cant Kill your Team during that Time. Not Realizing that the Fact that you as an Ship thats Supposed to be Equal have to consider it a Great Success if you can DELAY a CV at the cost of your Life.

You are here again pretty much Admitting that CVs are Ridiculously Overpowered. Because you are in Fact Admitting that CVs currently are the only Class which CANNOT be Stopped by anything. Not Realizing that actually ALL other Classes can be Stopped or made Useless by Specific Tactics.

 

 

 

 

And No.

Sorry but the last bit is just Complete Bullcrab.

Someone Moving alone will NEVER provide enough AA to cause any remotely Significant Losses.

And he CANNOT Dodge Attacks.

In General. YOU CAN NOT DODGE ATTACKS FROM CVS.

CV Attacks are 100% controlled by RNG and the CV Player itself. They cannot be Dodged.

CVs only Miss if the Player makes a mistake or when RNG causes the Spread to land around the Ship.

Thats all.

 

He is moving at 150-200 Knots and his Attacks are Fired from like 500m away from you.

Your Ship even if you got a French High Tier DD moving at nearly 60 Knots.

Does simply not have the Maneuverability or the Speed to Dodge Aircraft Attacks.

 

The absolutely Best case is you can make yourself harder to Hit by changing Course or placing your Ship in a Position thats offering less Attackable Area.

But you cannot Dodge Attacks.

 

[Pikkozoikum]

31 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Groups might have Strong AA. But they become Susceptible to a range of other Problems.

Most of all Torpedoes.

 

To begin with there being a way to become "Invincible" against a certain Strategy is completely Normal.

Thats how ALL other Classes in the Game Work.

If the Enemy uses a certain Strategy that Counters them. The Enemy will be near Invincible for that one Class. But will become Susceptible for others.

 

 

For example.

Bow in and Reverse is a Great Strategy when your Dealing with Enemy BBs.

Especially at Medium to low Range your becoming almost Immune to Damage from them.

And due to the low Profile your also Reasonably Well Protected from Long Range Torpedoes.

But you become very Vulnearble to HE Spamming Cruisers and DDs in Exchange.

No, that's not the same. It's a difference, if AA dps becomes so heavy, that the CV can't drop anything, or if a Ship angles and reduces damage.

A Bow on ship can always receivce damage, it could get also deleted. They are not invincble. But if the DPS is overbuffed, then planes can't reach the target.

 

31 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Why should CVs be better than other Classes and Should be Guaranteed to be Effective at all times ?

Why should CVs be the only Class in the Game which cannot be Specifically Countered by some Strategies ?

The questions are unnesscary. It is about, that the AA god nerfed, because the mechanic and other values got changed. You can't keep the high dps monsters, while buffing all other ships as wel. That would lead to 10k dps groups, who shred everything.

Never said, that there should be no counter against CV, but neither should be everything a counter against CV ;)

Or do you want aa-weak ships, that can one-shot squads, while we have minotaurs with over 1k midrange dps, and maybe 2k at shortrange or even higher? It's about the extremes.

31 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Just like your other Post where you Defend CVs being Powerful by talking about how you can Cost a CV Time so he cant Kill your Team during that Time. Not Realizing that the Fact that you as an Ship thats Supposed to be Equal have to consider it a Great Success if you can DELAY a CV at the cost of your Life.

You are here again pretty much Admitting that CVs are Ridiculously Overpowered. Because you are in Fact Admitting that CVs currently are the only Class which CANNOT be Stopped by anything. Not Realizing that actually ALL other Classes can be Stopped or made Useless by Specific Tactics.

Thats a strategy, that doesn't has anything to do with the CV rework.

Distracting enemies with your life is a strategy to win. Example. 5 Ships hunting you to the border for 20 minutes. Don't you think, that is worth your life for being a bait?

I won that alot with that strategy, better than giving up and showing broadside to get sink as fast as possible ;)

 

31 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

And No.

Sorry but the last bit is just Complete Bullcrab.

Someone Moving alone will NEVER provide enough AA to cause any remotely Significant Losses.

And he CANNOT Dodge Attacks.

In General. YOU CAN NOT DODGE ATTACKS FROM CVS.

CV Attacks are 100% controlled by RNG and the CV Player itself. They cannot be Dodged.

CVs only Miss if the Player makes a mistake or when RNG causes the Spread to land around the Ship.

Thats all.

Eh, of course oyu can dodge? Use WASD. Torps can miss. Bombs are sluggish and even Rocket planes are sluggish in case of hard turns. When I play CV I really notice, how people dodge and people who give a [edited].

https://replayswows.com/replay/61682#stats

Watch. I dodged a lot torps. Many attempts that 2 CVs try to kill me. We win a 3vs6, because the 2 Cvs go for me without success

 

31 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

The absolutely Best case is you can make yourself harder to Hit by changing Course or placing your Ship in a Position thats offering less Attackable Area.

But you cannot Dodge Attacks. 

That describes dodging, doesnt it? Moving a ship into another position to get less hit? Same way you dodge shells or torpedos... xD

 

Quote

 

dodge

verb

uk /dɒdʒ/ us /dɑːdʒ/

[ I or T ] to avoid being hit by something by moving quickly to one side:

 

with a surface ship, moving to a side (using A and D) and try to avoide to get hits (bombs, torpedos, rockets)

[Sunleader]

57 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

No, that's not the same. It's a difference, if AA dps becomes so heavy, that the CV can't drop anything, or if a Ship angles and reduces damage.

A Bow on ship can always receivce damage, it could get also deleted. They are not invincble. But if the DPS is overbuffed, then planes can't reach the target.

 

The questions are unnesscary. It is about, that the AA god nerfed, because the mechanic and other values got changed. You can't keep the high dps monsters, while buffing all other ships as wel. That would lead to 10k dps groups, who shred everything.

Never said, that there should be no counter against CV, but neither should be everything a counter against CV ;)

Or do you want aa-weak ships, that can one-shot squads, while we have minotaurs with over 1k midrange dps, and maybe 2k at shortrange or even higher? It's about the extremes.

Thats a strategy, that doesn't has anything to do with the CV rework.

Distracting enemies with your life is a strategy to win. Example. 5 Ships hunting you to the border for 20 minutes. Don't you think, that is worth your life for being a bait?

I won that alot with that strategy, better than giving up and showing broadside to get sink as fast as possible ;)

 

Eh, of course oyu can dodge? Use WASD. Torps can miss. Bombs are sluggish and even Rocket planes are sluggish in case of hard turns. When I play CV I really notice, how people dodge and people who give a [edited].

https://replayswows.com/replay/61682#stats

Watch. I dodged a lot torps. Many attempts that 2 CVs try to kill me. We win a 3vs6, because the 2 Cvs go for me without success

 

That describes dodging, doesnt it? Moving a ship into another position to get less hit? Same way you dodge shells or torpedos... xD

 

with a surface ship, moving to a side (using A and D) and try to avoide to get hits (bombs, torpedos, rockets)

 

1.

It Cant.

Because just like a BB can Still Shoot at you even if you Bow in.

Just with much Reduced Hit Chance and much Reduced Damage.

 

A CV can Always Drop Torpedoes from outside AA Range or Change Targets to a Ship not part of the Blob.

As well as just Staying at about 8km to Spot the Enemy and wait for an Opening.

 

Something DDs do alot. Because for them its Suicide if they just Rush into every First Target they meet regardless of Situation.

 

 

Sorry. But all your Doing here is DEMANDING CVs to always Remain so Overpowered that YOU CANNOT BE STOPPED NO MATTER WHAT.

Something that no other Class in the Game has.

 

 

2.

The Question has to be Asked.

Because You are Demanding that CVs are Excluded from any Skill Play and are Guaranteed to be able to Strike regardless of the Actions of your Opposing Player.

 

And No.

AA was Nerfed.

The Mechanics being Changed is Irrelevant to that.

Because the Mechanic is nowhere even remotely as Powerful as to make up for the Nerf.

 

Otherwise I could Suggest alot of Great Buffs to CVs as well.
For example.

Lets Add 2 Additional Torpedo Bombers to each Drop of the Kaga. It by Default has 4 so now it has 6.

But each Torpedo only does 1k Damage instead of 4k

 

Then we Call it a Buff.

Thats Fair Right :)

 

Or lets Change the Mechanic for CVs entirely.

CVs all get 10% more Aircraft. But they no longer Regenerate any Aircraft.

 

Great Buff Right :)

 

Sorry But you Stop making Stawmans and just Argue Normally ?

Because so far your just making Excuses and keep trying to divert attention from the Problem.

 

 

3.

Its a Strategy used against a Vastly Superior Enemy that you have no Way of Defeating Yes.

Its a Strategy because CVs ARE EXACTLY THIS. An Vastly Superior and Overpowered Enemy YOU CANNOT HOPE TO DEFEAT.

 

 

4.

You didnt Dodge a Single Torp, Bomb or Rocket in this Game lol

The CV merely Missed you and RNG decided to Drop the Torps in a Spread that was at a different Position than your Ship was going.

 

Not sure where you Cherry Picked that Funny Definition either.

But No.

 

as a Verb.

avoid (someone or something) by a sudden quick movement.

 

Or a Noun.

a sudden quick movement to avoid someone or something.

 

Nothing about your Movement here is Sudden or Quick.

Ships do not Move Sudden or Quick.

But most of all. None of your Movement is actually Dodging anything.

All of your Movement is Initiated before the Attack already.

 

 

What your Doing is Evasive Maneuvers. Which is not Dodging.

Your Decreasing the Chances the other Person Hits.

Your not Actually Dodging an Attack that would have Hit you.

 

Here Mate.

THIS would be Dodging.

 

 

 

A Sudden Quick Movement to Avoid being Hit.

Not Something you can do in the Game.

 

 

Mate Once More.

Pls stop with the Strawmans.

All your Doing is Evading the Point.

 

 

 

I am Asking you.

Why Should CVs be Guaranteed to Strike no matter what the Opponent Does ?

Why Should CVs be the only Class in the Game so Powerful that you cannot Defeat alone ?

Why Should CVs be the only Class in the Game which cannot be Stopped from Attacking you even if your using Explicit Strategy against it making yourself Vulnearble against other Classes ?

Why Should CVs be the only Class in the Game which always and at all Times Can Immediately Attack whatever Target it wants without any Risks. While every other Class has to Consider Attacking an Enemy Formation because it might be Killed if it does ?

How do You Justify the Tremendous Advantages that CVs Hold ABOUT EVERY OTHER CLASS WITH NO PAYOFF WHATSOEVER ?

 

 

[Pikkozoikum]

22 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Because You are Demanding that CVs are Excluded from any Skill Play and are Guaranteed to be able to Strike regardless of the Actions of your Opposing Player.

No, never said that.

 

23 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

The Mechanics being Changed is Irrelevant to that.

No, the AA had to "be nerfed". You can't change from single zones to overlapping zone and keep the dps. You forgot the mid range dps of the Cls?

 

25 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Sorry But you Stop making Stawmans and just Argue Normally ?

Because so far your just making Excuses and keep trying to divert attention from the Problem.

Really no idea what you are talking about.

 

26 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

3.

Its a Strategy used against a Vastly Superior Enemy that you have no Way of Defeating Yes.

Its a Strategy because CVs ARE EXACTLY THIS. An Vastly Superior and Overpowered Enemy YOU CANNOT HOPE TO DEFEAT.

But I did? Me against two CVs. They fought me, I killed planes, they didn't killed, we won.

 

27 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

4.

You didnt Dodge a Single Torp, Bomb or Rocket in this Game lol

The CV merely Missed you and RNG decided to Drop the Torps in a Spread that was at a different Position than your Ship was going.

You can turn into a gap, then you dodge, better with faster ships, than with BBs obviously.

 

28 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Not sure where you Cherry Picked that Funny Definition either.

But No.

Cambridge Dictionary

 

28 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

as a Verb.

avoid (someone or something) by a sudden quick movement.

 

Or a Noun.

a sudden quick movement to avoid someone or something.

That's what you do, You press a (A or D) button and avoide a torpedo.

 

 

30 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Nothing about your Movement here is Sudden or Quick.

Sudden and quick are relative terms. When you dodge an attack as human, for a fly is that not sudden or quick. If a destroye or CLs moves left oder right, that is sudden or quick in the view of a BB. So this terms do nothing.

 

31 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

What your Doing is Evasive Maneuvers. Which is not Dodging.

Your Decreasing the Chances the other Person Hits.

Your not Actually Dodging an Attack that would have Hit you.

Call it what every ou like, call it avoide, call it dodge, call it evasive maneur, I really don't care, but this is all the same. A movement to not get hit.

 

33 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

All your Doing is Evading the Point.

Evading or dodging? Or is it an evasive maneuver? I'm not sure

 

33 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Why Should CVs be Guaranteed to Strike no matter what the Opponent Does ?

Shouldn't, like you could see in the replay, I dodge/avoide/maneuver evasivly torpedos

 

34 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Why Should CVs be the only Class in the Game so Powerful that you cannot Defeat alone ?

It's a game design, that CVs are better against fewer enemies, than more enemies. Depending on skill and ship you can defeat.

 

35 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Why Should CVs be the only Class in the Game which cannot be Stopped from Attacking you even if your using Explicit Strategy against it making yourself Vulnearble against other Classes ?

I don't know. Why should it? Grouping is good against CVs. Guess you really missunderstood, what I was refering to. They had to "nerf" ships like Minotaur, when they buff the rest of the ship. They wanted to nerf the strong aa ships, and buff the weaker aa ships to get a balance.

Here my quote:

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

It's always important to consider, that multiple ships still can group. If every ship get a overbuffed AA, groups would become invincible.

This refers to the change from 8.6 to 8.7. They wanted to nerf AA monsters and buff AA-weak ships. And as I said, you can't buff the AA-monsters and the weak ships. That would end to invincble groups.

 

40 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Why Should CVs be the only Class in the Game which always and at all Times Can Immediately Attack whatever Target it wants without any Risks. While every other Class has to Consider Attacking an Enemy Formation because it might be Killed if it does ?

Well, why should it? Do you have an answer, me not

 

Did you watched the replay? I have no issues against CVs.

[El2aZeR]

49 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Did you watched the replay? I have no issues against CVs.

 

Still using an example where both enemy CVs have a combined total of less than 30 matches, huh?

Something that has been proven on the day you posted this irrelevant replay, yet you still continue to use it to prove your point.

 

We all know you're utterly dishonest, no need to prove it any further.

[Sunleader]

12 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

No, never said that.

 

No, the AA had to "be nerfed". You can't change from single zones to overlapping zone and keep the dps. You forgot the mid range dps of the Cls?

 

Really no idea what you are talking about.

 

But I did? Me against two CVs. They fought me, I killed planes, they didn't killed, we won.

 

You can turn into a gap, then you dodge, better with faster ships, than with BBs obviously.

 

Cambridge Dictionary

 

That's what you do, You press a (A or D) button and avoide a torpedo.

 

 

Sudden and quick are relative terms. When you dodge an attack as human, for a fly is that not sudden or quick. If a destroye or CLs moves left oder right, that is sudden or quick in the view of a BB. So this terms do nothing.

 

Call it what every ou like, call it avoide, call it dodge, call it evasive maneur, I really don't care, but this is all the same. A movement to not get hit.

 

Evading or dodging? Or is it an evasive maneuver? I'm not sure

 

Shouldn't, like you could see in the replay, I dodge/avoide/maneuver evasivly torpedos

 

It's a game design, that CVs are better against fewer enemies, than more enemies. Depending on skill and ship you can defeat.

 

I don't know. Why should it? Grouping is good against CVs. Guess you really missunderstood, what I was refering to. They had to "nerf" ships like Minotaur, when they buff the rest of the ship. They wanted to nerf the strong aa ships, and buff the weaker aa ships to get a balance.

Here my quote:

This refers to the change from 8.6 to 8.7. They wanted to nerf AA monsters and buff AA-weak ships. And as I said, you can't buff the AA-monsters and the weak ships. That would end to invincble groups.

 

Well, why should it? Do you have an answer, me not

 

Did you watched the replay? I have no issues against CVs.

 

1.

Another Stawman.

If I make a Law that Forces Everyone to Shoot at Cats on Sight.

Then Technically. I am not Killing all Cats.

But the Law I make Clearly has this Intention.

 

You Refuse to give Ships Useful AA because you Refuse to have AA Strong enough that Several Ships Combined can Deny a CV from Striking.

This Effectively Means that you Demand that a CV is Always Guaranteed to Strike regardless of AA.

 

2.

Again. Thats a Strawman.

Because once More.

Hipper went from 560 to around 240 on Medium AA. Its Long Range AA thats now overlapping however is only 150.

Meaning that the Total is is still 170 Points Lower than before.

 

You Try to make it Sound like we got an Equivalent Buff in Exchange. But we did not.

 

3.

Its Simple.

Your constantly Just Throwing out Strawman Arguments.

Basicly your Making Arguments on Irrelevant Points and Throw out Misleading Information to avoid Talking about the Actual Topic which your Wrong on.

 

The Two Above are Good Examples.

You keep Talking about the Overlapping AA Zones which are New. But they are Irrelevant. Because it does not Change the Fact that the Resulting AA Power is 30-50% weaker than before.

You dont Directly Demand that CVs are Always Guaranteed to get a Strike Through. But your Demanding that AA Cannot Prevent a CV from Striking You. The Result however is the Same.

 

4.

Another Strawman.

You did not Kill the CV.

You Defeated some other Players that werent CVs. And your Team Survived Longer against the Enemy CVs than the Enemy Team Survived your CVs.

You also Shot Down some Aircraft from Noob CVs that have not yet Learned how to Drop Strikes Properly and thus kept Missing you.

 

Your Trying Sell a T4 Game with Noobs Missing you as you Beating CVs.

 

5.

And what Creates that Gap ? :)

Bad Aiming and RNG.

 

6.

No. Sorry. But Pressing A or D does Nothing.

You actually have to Hold Down A or D for a long time so your Ship Slowly Changes Course.

Nothing Sudden or Quick about it.

 

And Please note this is Another Strawman.

You make a Ton of Answers on this Completely Irrelevant Side Point.

Trying to Derail the Discussion in that Direction.

 

 

 

 

As for your Answers.

 

A.

Then Why do you Demand something that Results in CVs being Guaranteed a Strike regardless of Enemy Action ? :)

B.

I am not Asking about the Current Situation of CVs being Overpowered. I am asking why you Demand it to be left in that State.

C.

Mate you are even Quoting yourself Saying This. 

You are Saying AA always has to Remain so Weak on each Ship. That a Group is Never Allowed to have Combined AA Strong enough that it would Prevent them from being Striked by CVs.

 

 

Mate.

There is Factual Numbers on This.

 

And Including the Damage Burst. Including the Overlapping AA Zones. Including the Sector Reinforcement.

Current AA is Weaker by 20-50% depending on the Ship.

 

You keep Throwing that Strawman around over and over. But this is just False.

There was no Balancing here which made Weak AA Ships Stronger and Strong AA Ships Weaker.

The Weak AA Ships lost about 10-20% of their Continues AA DPS. And the Strong AA Ships lost up to 50% of their Continues AA DPS. (And this INCLUDES the Overlapping zones. If Zones would not Overlap. All Ships would have lost about 70-80% of their Continues AA DPS)

All Ships lost about 20% of their Heavy AA Explosions.

They lost the Permanent Sector Reinforcement.

 

And in Exchange all the Ships got was 3.5% instant Damage and a Short Time Sector Reinforcement.

 

 

And while AA was Nerfed into Oblivion.
CVs received Several Buffs.

Including a Nifty little Addition that any Aircraft that have Dropped their Bombs. Now become almost Instantly Invulnearble to Damage.

 

 

The Fact is. That AA in the Current Update is 30-50% Less Effective in Total than the AA in 0.8.6

My Aircraft Losses compared to 0.8.6 have HALVED.

And that Despite me Flying much more Reckless and not even bothering to Evade anymore.

 

 

 

 

[Alfa_Tau]

AA is just the same us it was before,. Perhaps even stronger due to the overlapping system 

The problem is… paople was used to aim the priority sector at the start of the battle and driving all the time giving the same side to enemy., Voila no worries. 

Now instead players are required to think, calcute distance and react. It takes some time to be ajusted to the mechanic. But all and all I think that everyone should agree that we need a more skilled based system and not a pure damage authomatic genarator. 

If properly used a ship can shoot down the same amount of planes like before. This at least is my opinion. 

[El2aZeR]

2 minutes ago, Alfa_Tau said:

If properly used a ship can shoot down the same amount of planes like before. This at least is my opinion. 

 

Proven wrong by facts. Sector reinforcement is worthless. You can in fact ignore it and shoot down the same amount of planes / take the same amount of strikes due to how it works.

 

Even combined AA of some high AA ships isn't even half as strong as it used to be while low AA ships have either stayed the same or gotten even worse. Did you know e.g. that Musashi AA got nerfed?

 

0.8.7 is a gigantic joke.

[Alfa_Tau]

2 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Did you know e.g. that Musashi AA got nerfed?

No to be honest I didn't but I do not think is a drama. Some ships should be balanced around all factors. Musashi is pretty strong at Tier IX against all other BB so I think that returning to the origin when its AA was weak is a good thing . 

Also considering I havent seen so many CV around in these days at high Tiers (IX and X) . 1 every 3 game more or less. and not Always a Tier X, quite often a Tier VIII CV. 

 

[Sunleader]

5 minutes ago, Alfa_Tau said:

No to be honest I didn't but I do not think is a drama. Some ships should be balanced around all factors. Musashi is pretty strong at Tier IX against all other BB so I think that returning to the origin when its AA was weak is a good thing . 

Also considering I havent seen so many CV around in these days at high Tiers (IX and X) . 1 every 3 game more or less. and not Always a Tier X, quite often a Tier VIII CV. 

 

 

Low Tier CVs are Right now Incredible for Farming.

So everyone is Seal Clubbing on Low Tier CVs.

Low Tier CV Player Numbers have almost Doubled over Night....

[Pikkozoikum]

3 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

1.

Another Stawman.

If I make a Law that Forces Everyone to Shoot at Cats on Sight.

Then Technically. I am not Killing all Cats.

But the Law I make Clearly has this Intention.

 

You Refuse to give Ships Useful AA because you Refuse to have AA Strong enough that Several Ships Combined can Deny a CV from Striking.

This Effectively Means that you Demand that a CV is Always Guaranteed to Strike regardless of AA.

Nope, no idea what you have with your strawman. I just told you, what wargaming did. You can like it or hate it, really don't care.

 

4 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

2.

Again. Thats a Strawman.

Because once More.

Hipper went from 560 to around 240 on Medium AA. Its Long Range AA thats now overlapping however is only 150.

Meaning that the Total is is still 170 Points Lower than before.

 

You Try to make it Sound like we got an Equivalent Buff in Exchange. But we did not.

Never said, that we got an quivalent buff. Just said, what wargaming was focusing: Remove extremes. No AA super ships, No AA useless ships. That was the goal. I have no statistic, if the AA got overall to much nerfed. I can only repeat: I don't have any issues with AA weak ships now.

 

But in case of the Hipper, I don't know the old values, but you keep foregetting to add the shortrange? The 560 doesn't work in short range, but the new midrange works in the short range

16 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

3.

Its Simple.

Your constantly Just Throwing out Strawman Arguments.

Basicly your Making Arguments on Irrelevant Points and Throw out Misleading Information to avoid Talking about the Actual Topic which your Wrong on.

 

The Two Above are Good Examples.

You keep Talking about the Overlapping AA Zones which are New. But they are Irrelevant. Because it does not Change the Fact that the Resulting AA Power is 30-50% weaker than before.

You dont Directly Demand that CVs are Always Guaranteed to get a Strike Through. But your Demanding that AA Cannot Prevent a CV from Striking You. The Result however is the Same.

Oof, you talk about being invincble, when you bow on... Mostly I said that, what Wargaming said, so it's not about any kind of argumentation, it's just repeating what happend. And what happend? They changed the extremes, they changed the AA system. You come all the time up with topics, that I don't even talk about, but claming of "strawman agrugments"

 

"You keep Talking about the Overlapping AA Zones which are New. But they are Irrelevant. Because it does not Change the Fact that the Resulting AA Power is 30-50% weaker than before." - never said that the AA is stronger now, I just told, why they changed the numbers.

 

"You dont Directly Demand that CVs are Always Guaranteed to get a Strike Through. But your Demanding that AA Cannot Prevent a CV from Striking You. The Result however is the Same." - I never talked about that.

 

19 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

5.

And what Creates that Gap ? :)

Bad Aiming and RNG.

Even in FPs you have Bad Aiming and RNG. If there would be a perfect world with perfect aiming, then there would no dodging exist. Even a Fly can't dodge, because my aiming would be perfect.

It's pointless "why" dodging happens. But if I see two planes moving towards me, then I can quickly turn my rudder with maxium steering towards those, then I can look, how they drop and move through the gap. That is active dodging. you can'T drop the torps on the ship, they have an arming distance, this arming distance can be used to move through a gap. Seriously... if we talk about dodging, then the term dodging is adjusted to the capabiltity of ships in WOWS and not of Sci-Fi maneuvers with anchors.

But if it makes you happy, then call if [edited]evasive Maneuver, reall don't care. I call it dodging.

 

 

24 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

6.

No. Sorry. But Pressing A or D does Nothing.

You actually have to Hold Down A or D for a long time so your Ship Slowly Changes Course.

Nothing Sudden or Quick about it.

Come on, this is nitpicking, you know what I mean....

Sudden and quick for what? A lighting strike? The movement of mountains? When we talk about ships, then these terms are adapted to SHIPS, not to anything else. If a ship moves 50 knots, then it is a quick ship. For planes, it is maybe slow, but we are talking about ships, not about horses, the light, the Millennium Falcon or what ever.

 

27 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

You make a Ton of Answers on this Completely Irrelevant Side Point.

Actually that's what you are doing, you write large posts about stuf, that was never objective of my inital post. I'm just reply to your posts, which are actually totaly far away from the points I talked about..

 

29 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

A.

Then Why do you Demand something that Results in CVs being Guaranteed a Strike regardless of Enemy Action ? :)

I didn't demand that

 

30 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

B.

I am not Asking about the Current Situation of CVs being Overpowered. I am asking why you Demand it to be left in that State.

Can't remember that I demand that.

 

30 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

C.

Mate you are even Quoting yourself Saying This. 

You are Saying AA always has to Remain so Weak on each Ship. That a Group is Never Allowed to have Combined AA Strong enough that it would Prevent them from being Striked by CVs.

You missunderstood me a second time, thought quoting would help, but maybe I have to repeat. You can't keep the AA values of 8.6. with changing to overlapping zones and buff the values of weak AA ships. This would lead to an overbuffing and no fly zone all the time. If you buff the AA super weak ships and keep the normal and strong ships with high values, then there are no ships to attack

 

33 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

You keep Throwing that Strawman around over and over. But this is just False.

There was no Balancing here which made Weak AA Ships Stronger and Strong AA Ships Weaker.

The Weak AA Ships lost about 10-20% of their Continues AA DPS. And the Strong AA Ships lost up to 50% of their Continues AA DPS. (And this INCLUDES the Overlapping zones. If Zones would not Overlap. All Ships would have lost about 70-80% of their Continues AA DPS)

All Ships lost about 20% of their Heavy AA Explosions.

They lost the Permanent Sector Reinforcement.

So you compare only the values, but not considering the mechanic? If you only compare the single zones, yes, they are "nerfed" which is completly irrelevant, when the mechanic changed....

I make you an example for mechanic change.

All ships get now a AA DPS of 1. Thats a nerf right? But they also get a mechanic change, that they can press a button every 10 s in a range of 20km to drop the load of the enemy squadron to disarm them.

The mechanic and the pure value is something differnt. The single nerf can't be seen as single part, you have to look over all changes. Exact that is the reason, why most people thought, that the AA will be overpowered with 8.7 when it was on PTS; They didn't saw all the changes only the single change. Doing that is the mistake.

 

39 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

My Aircraft Losses compared to 0.8.6 have HALVED.

Well, I assume the AA in general is slightly weaker, but that was intented. The question is, if the AA is too weak... or maybe just all people don't know how to use the sector system? When I play CV I notice a lot players not using it.

 

I rarely have issues with CVs and never thought, they're too powerful at least against good players. But that is a skill thing. If the AA is really to weak, then they will buff it, I assume. I can just tell my experience, and if I don'T have issues against CV, then I can't like about it. So watch my replay, I didn't even played well and had no issues.

https://replayswows.com/replay/61682#stats

 

[Pikkozoikum]

36 minutes ago, Alfa_Tau said:

AA is just the same us it was before,. Perhaps even stronger due to the overlapping system 

The problem is… paople was used to aim the priority sector at the start of the battle and driving all the time giving the same side to enemy., Voila no worries. 

Now instead players are required to think, calcute distance and react. It takes some time to be ajusted to the mechanic. But all and all I think that everyone should agree that we need a more skilled based system and not a pure damage authomatic genarator. 

If properly used a ship can shoot down the same amount of planes like before. This at least is my opinion. 

well, what definetly change, and I like that, The F button directly after a strike above the target is actually the worst spot. Before the patch it was often the best spot.

But also think the same, that many peoples are not used to the new system or even don't know that it exists.

 

It depends, what you mean with "skill based". It kinda needs skills in case of knowledge and awareness. If a player give a [edited]about it, he will do less aa damage and those are pretty easy to destroy.

[El2aZeR]

28 minutes ago, Alfa_Tau said:

No to be honest I didn't but I do not think is a drama. Some ships should be balanced around all factors. Musashi is pretty strong at Tier IX against all other BB so I think that returning to the origin when its AA was weak is a good thing . 

Also considering I havent seen so many CV around in these days at high Tiers (IX and X) . 1 every 3 game more or less. and not Always a Tier X, quite often a Tier VIII CV. 

 

- DM AA is now the same as NC

- Neptune combined AA is about the same as her mid range used to be alone

- Minotaur combined AA is about half of what her mid range used to be

- Same with Worcester

- Grozo AA is now equivalent to some T5 ships

- Kidd AA would make some T6 ships laugh

 

And so forth and so on.

My point is under no circumstances did AA get buffed and the sector reinforcement mechanic as a whole is completely useless since you can ignore it and shoot down the same amount of planes. Strong AA ships have gotten substantially weaker, while weak AA ships have either stayed the same or gotten weaker as well.

 

Under current AA T8 CVs might as well be T10 ships, while T10 CVs are T12+.

[Ace42X]

5 hours ago, Sunleader said:

4.

Hmm.

Videos of T10 Battles.

Well why not.

Thanks for your reply, very informative.
Would prefer T8s though (I was unclear in my previous post - when I mentioned TX it was to suggest that they have much better survivability than T8s, not that I preferred TX videos to study), just because that's where my Azur Lane commanded premium waifu-CVs run into the most trouble.
Especially Shokaku dive-bombing, because even buffed (SE+Armour +HP module) her AP bombers seem to evaporate unless I'm sling-shotting (which, I agree, is detrimental to the game).

Have you considered youtubing the replays?  I don't want to put you out if it's inconvenient, but as replays become unwatchable as patches progress I think that - on top of being convenient for me to watch - it might be useful just as a record for posterity?

I can imagine that we'll be talking about "what it was like back-in-the-day" and reflecting on this patch in a few months time, and having some visual evidence of just what the game played like might prove beneficial.

[Alfa_Tau]

57 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Low Tier CVs are Right now Incredible for Farming.

This was an issue I underlined several times even before 087. What is become worst some CV at tier V / VI have bigger attack squad. 

Wich is bad not only because they are too powerful at tier IV but also because they create (potentially) the illusion of being almost immune to AA when they do attack a group of ships. 

Finally at low tiers the problem become huge when you have a game with 2 CV x side. 

[El2aZeR]

58 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I don't have any issues with AA weak ships now.

 

Something based solely on your experience against noob CVs.

Which is completely irrelevant and in the context of what you've been saying so far once again intellectually dishonest.

 

Also calling pre 0.8.7 Hipper an AA monster. Ahahahaha, are you for real? Do you not have any shame?

 

58 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

So you compare only the values, but not considering the mechanic? If you only compare the single zones, yes, they are "nerfed" which is completly irrelevant, when the mechanic changed....

 

Except we haven't been comparing individual AA auras. We've been comparing combined 0.8.7 AA vs some single 0.8.6 auras.

And even when combined 0.8.7 AA falls far behind.

 

Stop making up bull. We all know you lie with abandon.

[Sunleader]

1 hour ago, Ace42X said:

Thanks for your reply, very informative.
Would prefer T8s though (I was unclear in my previous post - when I mentioned TX it was to suggest that they have much better survivability than T8s, not that I preferred TX videos to study), just because that's where my Azur Lane commanded premium waifu-CVs run into the most trouble.
Especially Shokaku dive-bombing, because even buffed (SE+Armour +HP module) her AP bombers seem to evaporate unless I'm sling-shotting (which, I agree, is detrimental to the game).

Have you considered youtubing the replays?  I don't want to put you out if it's inconvenient, but as replays become unwatchable as patches progress I think that - on top of being convenient for me to watch - it might be useful just as a record for posterity?

I can imagine that we'll be talking about "what it was like back-in-the-day" and reflecting on this patch in a few months time, and having some visual evidence of just what the game played like might prove beneficial.

 

I am using T8 CV in all 3 Replays.

Just the last 2 Replays are T10 Matches into which I got Dragged with my T8 CV :)

 

 

Yes Shokaku Dive Bombers are Fragile.

But they are also Insane if they hit cause you can do Triple Citadel for about 25k Damage.

 

 

And No.

I dont like Uploading to Youtube because I am not good with GFX Software in General.

:)

 

 

I recommend Watching the Replays anyways.

As I said. Its T8 CV in T10 Match.

It might give you some pointers on how to Play even if Enemy has lots of AA.

 

 

 

[Ace42X]

14 hours ago, Sunleader said:

And No.

I dont like Uploading to Youtube because I am not good with GFX Software in General.

:)

No problem, thanks for your reply, again.

If, however, you'd be interested in how to record video of your replays and upload it to Youtube, I can talk you through how to do it, it's incredibly easy and the software to do it (OBS, which can also be used for live-streaming if you ever decided that might be fun) is open source, free, and straightforward to set up.

But no pressure, I am so lazy I barely ever upload videos, so it's not like I expect anyone else to ;)

[asalonen]

On 9/3/2019 at 2:13 PM, Ace42X said:

Ah, but are you an Average Casual Potato with 13+ skillpoint captains?

Captain skills don't really mean that much with CV's. Most are clearly useful, but their effect is really pretty small. They don't turn a 55 % player into a 60 % player, probably not even into a 56 % player. Any of the CV's are fine with a 0-point captain.

 

The reworked CV's just seem to suit some players very well. I imagine it's mostly a map awareness thing, since the gameplay is so dumbed-down and easy to master. Successful attacks might take more hand-eye coordination than what you need with the other classes, since the planes are pretty fast and timing is important. So gaming background in general might be hugely beneficial?

If I look at my solo random stats, I'm 55 % in cruisers, 57 % in battleships, 61 % in destroyers and 67 % in carriers. I play all with the same mindset, pretty serious. I never felt like I figured out cruisers -- they feel like pissing into the wind. The reworked carriers, however, immediately felt super easy to carry in.