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Ace42X

IFHE on Atago a bad idea?

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Playing my Atago, with her 203mm, I was getting a fair amount of shatters, so free-specced to IFHE which *seemed* to help.

Is it really worth mounting IFHE to try and reduce shatters - even though the game blanks it out as a non-recommended CO skill for Atago COs?  Or is the game-client right and the break-points for armour-vs-calibre such that the extra IFHE pen is insufficient to penetrate any additional armour schemes in the Tier8 battlegroup, making the extra pen overkill on stuff that it won't shatter on?

Same question for Prince Eugen - who I'd prefer to be using to spam AP like a bawss, but don't always get the choice when presented with angled battleships.

 

Going from 33mm to 66mm penetration seems like a significant improvement, and I seem to recall there being lots of ships with armour in the 60-70mm range that would suddenly become squishier to this?

I'm assuming the game *is* actually right to discount IFHE on Azuma, as her big (310mm) guns don't seem to be giving me a significant number of shatters at all.

Although, as a side question, are the armoured panels on her stern useful?  Using her to kite seems feasible (especially given her speed), but if the most armoured part of her is still rubbish then that makes conservatively kiting circumstantially less desirable than just closing the distance.

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5 minutes ago, Ace42X said:

Going from 33mm to 66mm penetration seems like a significant improvement, and I seem to recall there being lots of ships with armour in the 60-70mm range that would suddenly become squishier to this?

Ha? Ifhe gives you 30% more pen. Not 2x. You'll have 43mm pen. Which means the only benefit are USN BBs and Vlad. Not worth it tbh. 

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6 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

Ha? Ifhe gives you 30% more pen. Not 2x. You'll have 43mm. Which means the only benefit are USN BBs and Vlad. Not worth it tbh. 


Ugh, the tooltip wasn't updating in the client between ships, it was showing my Prince Eugen's stats on my Atago (facepalm).  I thought there was something funny going on.

Although that tooltip *does* show Prince Eugen going from 50mm to 66.

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5 minutes ago, Ace42X said:

That's what I thought, but the port says 33mm without my captain, 66 with.

 

Screenshots?

Just checked with both my DM and my Takao. Port displays the value correctly at 44mm with IFHE.

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IFHE on any 203mm Cruiser is going to be a complete waste of 4 perfectly good Commander points that would be better employed elsewhere, like AFT or CE, AR+EM... Anything else basically.:cap_old:

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1 minute ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Screenshots?

Just checked with both my DM and my Takao. Port displays the value correctly at 44mm with IFHE.


Yah, as soon as he said it I double-checked, it was just the UI.  Clicking about and alt-tabbing fixed it.

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6 minutes ago, RAHJAILARI said:

IFHE on any 203mm Cruiser is going to be a complete waste of 4 perfectly good Commander points that would be better employed elsewhere, like AFT or CE, AR+EM... Anything else basically.:cap_old:

IFHindenburg could work in the next T-X clan season.

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2 minutes ago, B0Tato said:

IFHindenburg could work in the next T-X clan season.

True dat, but only because she has kicka*sso secondaries that benefit from it, not so much for any buff it might give to main guns, which was my main point anyways. :Smile_Default:

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3 minutes ago, RAHJAILARI said:

IFHE on any 203mm Cruiser is going to be a complete waste of 4 perfectly good Commander points that would be better employed elsewhere, like AFT or CE, AR+EM... Anything else basically.:cap_old:


Yah 44mm of pen doesn't seem like it's going to do much.  Which is frustrating, as Atago shatters all the bloody time with 33mm, and desperation attempts to use AP have been bounce-city in TX matches.

That said, going from 50mm to 66mm on the Eugen is a lot closer to the breakpoint?  Can't remember if it's 68mm that you require to broadside Cruisers, though?  I'm guessing it's still insufficient, and that's why it's also blocked out in the CO skill UI for PE?

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1 minute ago, RAHJAILARI said:

True dat, but only because she has kicka*sso secondaries that benefit from it, not so much for any buff it might give to main guns, which was my main point anyways. :Smile_Default:

Secondaries? Nah.

I'm talking about 65 mm of penetration.

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9 minutes ago, Ace42X said:

Yah 44mm of pen doesn't seem like it's going to do much.  Which is frustrating, as Atago shatters all the bloody time with 33mm, and desperation attempts to use AP have been bounce-city in TX matches.

That said, going from 50mm to 66mm on the Eugen is a lot closer to the breakpoint?  Can't remember if it's 68mm that you require to broadside Cruisers, though?  I'm guessing it's still insufficient, and that's why it's also blocked out in the CO skill UI for PE?

That is correct, and since it reduces your fire chances significantly it would have a negative effect on overall damage output - It is easier just to switch to AP, when needed. Best thing is just to aim at the superstructure, you will easily get 3-5000 per salvo raw damage and 1-2 fires every time just by hitting the smokestack. IFHE usually is best suited for 152-155mm guns, which always struggle, when uptiered and for those ships that have secondaries benefiting from it (German 128mm come to mind). No need to pick it for Nurnberg or Koningsberg tho, since German 150mm kinda have a built-in higher penetration already.:Smile_Default:

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7 minutes ago, RAHJAILARI said:

IFHE usually is best suited for 152-155mm guns, which always struggle, when uptiered and for those ships that have secondaries benefiting from it (German 128mm come to mind).

Just a small addition, focussed on competitive:

It also works on Henri for 51 mm of penetration and probably on some large cruisers and Hindenburg for 65 mm of penetration. 

 

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Depends on how many US BBs you see, that is the only advantage. I have it on mine because its my Mogami captain, but otherwise I would not use. 

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For the gun with very good HE dmg + reliable chance of starting fire ? Nope, just waste of points. I never use IFHE on my Jap Cruisers except Mogami 155mm guns

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1 hour ago, B0Tato said:

Just a small addition, focussed on competitive:

It also works on Henri for 51 mm of penetration and probably on some large cruisers and Hindenburg for 65 mm of penetration. 

 

On Yoshino too having same 65mm pen

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I was always under the impression that the Hindy had built-in IFHE values. 

 

It works wonders on the Henri, both in random and CB. 

 

@OP I wouldn’t spend those 4 points on the Atago captain. Better take the overall cruiser build for IJN CA’s (PM, EL, EM, AR, SI, CE and perhaps AFT/MAA)

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1 hour ago, MacArthur92 said:

On Yoshino too having same 65mm pen

Yes, she falls under large cruisers.

Accurately she even has 66 mm. :fish_glass: :Smile_hiding:

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1 hour ago, B0Tato said:

Yes, she falls under large cruisers.

Accurately she even has 66 mm. :fish_glass: :Smile_hiding:

And its going to matter so much because there are so many ships with 66mm armor bits:Smile_smile:

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17 minutes ago, Panocek said:

And its going to matter so much because there are so many ships with 66mm armor bits:Smile_smile:

I am actually playing an IFHE Hindenburg to tame the new Russian BB line. 

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4 hours ago, RAHJAILARI said:

True dat, but only because she has kicka*sso secondaries that benefit from it, not so much for any buff it might give to main guns, which was my main point anyways. :Smile_Default:

Yoshino secondaries > Hindenburg secondaries.

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19 minutes ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

Yoshino secondaries > Hindenburg secondaries.

Aaaa! Really? :Smile_great: Thanks for pointing that out. Indeed good to know this, must avoid getting too close then. Although to be honest, these days I do avoid getting anywhere near any Yoshino, especially ones in the same team as I. Had too many close calls with people mounting those infernal 20km torps on them and then 2nd or even third-line torping them all over the place.:cap_haloween:

 

I have many, many bad words for such people...:cap_wander_2::Smile-angry::etc_swear:

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12 minutes ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

Yoshino secondaries > Hindenburg secondaries.

Not quite - German 105 have by default 25mm pen, compared to IJN 100mm 24mm. With IFHE both reach 32mm threshold. Firing arcs are presumably in Hinden favor due to guns not being copy/pasted hastily into deck and are in different heights, not interfering with one another. That and Hindenburg handles short range fight MUCH better due to, I dunno, not having moon sized citadel

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52 minutes ago, Panocek said:

And its going to matter so much because there are so many ships with 66mm armor bits:Smile_smile:

Did I claim that? :Smile_smile::Smile_smile::Smile_smile:

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5 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Not quite - German 105 have by default 25mm pen, compared to IJN 100mm 24mm. With IFHE both reach 32mm threshold. Firing arcs are presumably in Hinden favor due to guns not being copy/pasted hastily into deck and are in different heights, not interfering with one another. That and Hindenburg handles short range fight MUCH better due to, I dunno, not having moon sized citadel

105 mm Hinden secs: 18 rpm, 1.2k alpha

100 mm Yoshino secs: 20 rpm, 1.7k alpha

 

And it depends on what you are fighting. Anything that cannot overmatch the stern, you could even kite at an angle and not give a damn, because the citadel has enough armour to not care. And if you are rushing a BB, both ships will try to kill it with main guns and the torps, not with their secondary armament.

 

Also, against anything that overmatches 30 mm, Hinden isn't much better than Yoshino, because both will get overmatched and while the citadel of Yoshino is massive, when properly angled, the amount that you can actually pen through and not internally ricochet off is not too large. It's then up to RNG where shells fly and both ships have a chance to just lose huge chunks of hp, though Yoshino in my experience has more troll options for those shots that aren't cits, while on Hinden it's just guaranteed massive pen damage. In a cruiser vs cruiser fight, if you have secondary specced Hinden vs secondary specced Yoshino, I'd likely consider the Yoshino to be able to win basically most engagements, if it doesn't push into the Hindenburg (given Hinden torps are going to wreck Yoshino before it can do much in return). At 6 km though, you can outkite the torps, farm with superior secondary dpm, half your broadside is a no-damage zone and you actually are more accurate than a Hindenburg.

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