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Smolensk too OP

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On 8/26/2019 at 7:11 AM, Excavatus said:

We didn't have a smolensk topic in Cruisers..

So, lets have it :) let people vent when they get out of a fiery shower :)

 

PS: I love smolensk... yeah a very very nasty ship as an enemy, but they really die fast, even in their smoke..

 

I disagree, they don't die fast. Colberts die quicker.

 

For one many players simply don't shoot into smoke.  We are talking about the majority of players here. And even when they do how many really hit you? The odd shell without auto marker. 

 

Second, its armour is trollish.  Always getting overpens or even bounces when angled but enough deck armour (30mm) to repel DD shells and light cruisers. The heal is just great with the flag. 

 

The Smol is too much.  Too much of a Accurate HE spammer with a very good fire chance. Has a heal, has torps and has defensive AA. Not to mention great concealment.

 

Anyone defending this ship saying it's perfectly balanced needs to find a job at WG in the PR department.  

 

Smolensk   Smolensk 10 U.S.S.R. 13 61.54% 1 718 126 793 1.69 3 Details

 

 

I should not be doing that much damage in a Light Crusier. Period.

 

However, i am glad it's a coal ship as more people will be able to experience the Power, unlike the Grad that more casual players have to slave away for to replace their Moskva.

 

I had 400,000 coal and nothing I wanted to spend it on, all the other ships were sort of like their silver counterparts....Until i knew the Smol was coming and struck gold when they announced it was for COAL!!! I knew how this was going to turn out and i was competently right. 

 

They learned nothing from the Kuts and Belfast and why they took that off the shelves. In fact I do....The WG Marketing department have took over now and completely run the show.

 

So in a nut shell....Its too strong for what it is (Russian again, go figure) and encourages crap HE spamming meta alone with the Colbert. They is something noone wasn't to keep on receiving in this game. 

 

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1 hour ago, Redcap375 said:

I should not be doing that much damage in a Light Crusier. Period.

But if Smolensk would be classified as [insert other ship type] then damage would be fine?:cap_book:

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1 minute ago, Panocek said:

But if Smolensk would be classified as [insert other ship type] then damage would be fine?:cap_book:

 

As a BB or Heavy Cruiser? Yes they should.  It's a Battleship.

 

You know, the things that were designed to cause alot of hurt on other the ships?

 

But yeah, WG went from that path long ago as it's an arcade game. 

 

So if i am causing that much damage on any target in Light cruiser then defo, 100%, something is wrong. 

 

They completely lost sight of what each class actually does in this game. 

 

I should not be causing more damage to battleships in light cruisers than i do in my Heavy Cruisers, which is currently the case. How is that right? It isnt. But it is an arcade game so.....

 

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2 minutes ago, Redcap375 said:

 

As a BB or Heavy Cruiser? Yes they should.  It's a Battleship.

 

You know, the things that were designed to cause alot of hurt on other the ships?

 

But yeah, WG went from that path long ago as it's an arcade game. 

 

So if i am causing that much damage on any target in Light cruiser then defo, 100%, something is wrong. 

 

They completely lost sight of what each class actually does in this game. 

 

I should not be causing more damage to battleships in light cruisers than i do in my Heavy Cruisers, which is currently the case. How is that right? It isnt. But it is an arcade game so.....

 

Have ever thought of "everyone damage everyone" is part of "balance", or whatever passes for meaning of that word in WG dev team nowadays.

 If you want immunity, maybe heavy tanks in World of Tanks are up your alley

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28 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Have ever thought of "everyone damage everyone" is part of "balance", or whatever passes for meaning of that word in WG dev team nowadays.

 If you want immunity, maybe heavy tanks in World of Tanks are up your alley

 

Oh i know that, but it doesn't mean it's right does it?

 

Every ship CAN damage another, but the means in which WG implement them is completely and utterly screwed up.  I should no be able to single handily  kill a BB's in 100mm IJN DD with practically guns alone? or a 130mm CL with guns alone?  No i should not and that my friend is the problem. 

 

Everyone should be able to damage everyone, but there should be is a limit.  There currently isn't.

 

I should be targeting other targets before thinking of sinking a BB one vs one in a CL, but that isnt the case and you know that. 

 

Having 8inch guns fire at a longer range than a 16 inch BB gun? There is one of the problems right there (HE spam) and totally unrealistic. 

 

If i had my way, ALL light cruisers and ALL DD's wouldn't be able to pen BB's at all.  They would only start fires or knock out mods which would still be fine as i'm starting about 13 a match in the Smol! The superstructure would also be saturated quicker as it's currently just a get out clause. 

 

You see, we STILL have torps don't we? So no ship with ever be immune to anything bigger regarding alpha damage and not just DOT fire damage. :cap_tea:

 

But it's not the WG way and never was, it's an unrealistic arcade game and i'm really fine with that. Its a company that makes money, It is what it is and still fun (just).  But they could have done sooo much better with the direction and not turned it into a comic-book.

 

Oh and gold ammo completely killed WoT for me (massive p2w) and i played that game when that first came out too.  What a crap game that is now, shame.  Warthunder is even worse as Russian Bias had gone mad in that game.  That Russian Bias is now in this game, come to piece with that one. 

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46 minutes ago, Redcap375 said:

If i had my way, ALL light cruisers and ALL DD's wouldn't be able to pen BB's at all.  They would only start fires or knock out mods which would still be fine as i'm starting about 13 a match in the Smol! The superstructure would also be saturated quicker as it's currently just a get out clause. 

And its exactly just that in game - even with magic of IFHE DD caliber guns can't touch your precious hightier baBBies, only fires and superstructure is there to be damaged. And damage saturated modules still eating damage were introduced simply because people reee'd about ship taking 0dmg after ship section was saturated, so I'm afraid you will have to live with it:cap_tea:

 

BTW, Wurst and Kremlin superstructure saturates after taking as little as 14k hp. Just a, you know, FYI:Smile_smile:

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16 hours ago, Panocek said:

And its exactly just that in game - even with magic of IFHE DD caliber guns can't touch your precious hightier baBBies, only fires and superstructure is there to be damaged. And damage saturated modules still eating damage were introduced simply because people reee'd about ship taking 0dmg after ship section was saturated, so I'm afraid you will have to live with it:cap_tea:

 

?????:Smile_amazed:????? WWWHHAAATTT

 

So what about my Aki, Kit, Harra ect that can pen 32mm of armour (so the majority of higher tier BB's) with IFHE? Yeah, you forgot about those ones.

 

Sorry, you said something not being able to touch BB's as a DD? Anyway, why am i telling you this, you already know it.  How does it go when your in the Monch being HE spammed to death by a Harra? That can cause both direct damage and fire damage not including 2 lots of torps?

 

Oh, that's if i decide to just gun them down, not just invis torping. :cap_tea: Again, you know this.

 

16 hours ago, Panocek said:

BTW, Wurst and Kremlin superstructure saturates after taking as little as 14k hp. Just a, you know, FYI:Smile_smile:

 

Well i never.....of course i know this. I also know they both burn like a BBQ so no worries there and they have crap torp belts.

 

What i am trying to say it that DD's should not be able to cause direct damage to BB's with their guns.  Start fires? Sure. Torp them? Sure, but not sitting in smoke and striping half of a BB health with a bloody DD guns alone. 

 

Alot can't like the Kidd, Groz ect that does rely on Fire and torps (like that isnt enough), but there are still too many that CAN just directly damage ships like the Republic, Monach, Conq ect with guns alone where you don't even need to aim at the superstructure.

 

I know we all have to live with it, it's the way that WG have done it, but that does not mean it's right. Which IMHO really isn't. 

 

I can't believe i am actually standing up for BB players here, but i play all lines and will point anything out that i think is wrong.  And i know this HE spam direct damage meta is killing Battleships with 32mm armour.

 

That's one of the reasons people are playing more Yams and Krem's or anything with thick 50-60mm (Krem lol) deck armour. Because they are fed up of being taken out by light cruisers and DD's with guns alone. 

 

 

 

 

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Even according to the mods the ship is balanced, as all things should be. My sides :Smile_teethhappy:

 

Edit clearly needs more data

image.thumb.png.d46c6879ed061e3d220d252cebb9e2f9.png

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10 minutes ago, Redcap375 said:

So what about my Aki, Kit, Harra ect that can pen 32mm of armour (so the majority of higher tier BB's) with IFHE? Yeah, you forgot about those ones.

 

Sorry, you said something not being able to touch BB's as a DD? Anyway, why am i telling you this, you already know it.  How does it go when your in the Monch being HE spammed to death by a Harra? That can cause both direct damage and fire damage not including 2 lots of torps?

So "DD guns in general" are a problem or single specific, 100mm/65 Type 98:cap_tea:

And "haz torps" - Shima have whole 15 of them, yet is considered one of the worst tier 10 DDs. I wonder if it has something to do with how easy torps are to evade, thus how unreliable damage source they are.

13 minutes ago, Redcap375 said:

Well i never.....of course i know this. I also know they both burn like a BBQ so no worries there and they have crap torp belts.

Indeed, BB torpedo belt should not only give immunity to torpedoes, they should even heal glorious BBmasterrace:cap_book:

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Smolensk too OP?

I think the game has too many at once and the player base hasn't found the counterplay for it. :Smile_teethhappy:

 

Hope until then, WG nerfs them. :cap_rambo:

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Panocek said:

So "DD guns in general" are a problem or single specific, 100mm/65 Type 98:cap_tea:

 

I have a problem with DD's that can out-right pen 32 mm of armour, I have never stated that i have a problem with any DD's that can't as they rely on fires or torps to do the damage (as well as superstructure) like i have already stated.  And they already do a good job at that. :cap_tea:  

 

My only view is that if i would have created the game, I wouldn't have included the superstructure of things to directly damage with DD's, only fire.  Now that's a an extreme view, but my own opinion.  I understand that they will be looked down on by most. 

 

But yeah, the 100mm/65 Type 98 is inherently wrong. 

 

2 minutes ago, Panocek said:

And "haz torps" - Shima have whole 15 of them, yet is considered one of the worst tier 10 DDs. I wonder if it has something to do with how easy torps are to evade, thus how unreliable damage source they are.

Indeed, BB torpedo belt should not only give immunity to torpedoes, they should even heal glorious BBmasterrace:cap_book:

 

And how is the benham doing then? Hummm :cap_tea: Or any ship with torps?

 

Are you trying to say that torps arnt doing the damage or impact they should?  Hummm, i don't think you will find many people to lobby with that one mate. 

 

And I have no idea what you are going on about regarding torpedoes belts. I simply stated that the Krem and Kurf (the two you mentioned) have crap torp belts, which they do.  Ships like the Yam, Mash, Alabama have great ones so i'm not too sure what your going on about to be honest.  Some have good ones and some don't? i have no prbolem with torp belt armour and never said i did, your putting words into my mouth there i'm afrade. 

 

But going back to the original question the OP asked, the Smol is too much.  It shows that even fire alone can completely cripple Battleships (not including torps) and this fast firing HE spamming from smoke meta is completely not good for the game, at all.

 

 

DD's are simply dead when spotted by one (which they should be to be honest, it's a light crusier) but the heavy cruisers are losing one vs one fights against them and BB's are just cooking alive. You cant shot what you cant see and CV's don't wanna touch a Smol with a barge pole.

 

 

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Redcap375 said:

My only view is that if i would have created the game, I wouldn't have included the superstructure of things to directly damage with DD's, only fire.  Now that's a an extreme view, but my own opinion.  I understand that they will be looked down on by most. 

And how you would balance outright immunity besides fully recoverable DoT damage?

 

5 minutes ago, Redcap375 said:

And I have no idea what you are going on about regarding torpedoes belts. I simply stated that the Krem and Kurf (the two you mentioned) have crap torp belts, which they do.  Ships like the Yam, Mash, Alabama have great ones so i'm not too sure what your going on about to be honest.  Some have good ones and some don't? i have no prbolem with torp belt armour and never said i did, your putting words into my mouth there i'm afrade. 

Kremlin have 46% torpedo belt, bested only by Yamato at 55% at tier 10. SoDak class in game have 49%. Wurst have ultimate torpedo belt in shape of German Hydro.

 

I guess these 3% make all the difference between crap and great:Smile_smile:

 

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48 minutes ago, Hentai__Senpai said:

Even according to the mods the ship is balanced, as all things should be. My sides :Smile_teethhappy:

 

 Edit clearly needs more data

image.thumb.png.d46c6879ed061e3d220d252cebb9e2f9.png

 

Since when has this forum ever believed the mods in the last 3 years.:Smile_veryhappy: 

 

We haven't because they come out with some of the biggest drivvle ever.

 

The Kuts was balanced. Yeah....

The Belfast was balanced. Yeah...

The balancegrad was balanced. Yeah...

The Conq when it first came out was balanced. Yeah....

The YY was balanced when it first came out. Yeah...

the Smol is balanced. Yeah....

The RST Sapian is balanced.  Yeah

 

Same old same old stuff they say. It's the marketing department that run the show, not the balance team. 

 

Oh you will have those that say the stats will drop as more and more people play them (normally WG employees on this forum) .....yeah.  Because that has done wonders for most of those ships ive mentioned that wast nerfed hard :cap_tea:


Cant wait until someone says the same crap about the Smol, there is always one that will say it will drop hard.

 

 

 

 

 

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When I first got mine I played a Co-OP just to test her. A Kremlin put two (2) shells through my bow and took me for 27k. She's squishiy, clumsy and her shells shatter more than not. If you camp she'll burn you down so the best way to deal with her is to push at her. Focus her and she'll melt pretty fast.

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1 minute ago, Panocek said:

 

And how you would balance outright immunity besides fully recoverable DoT damage?

 

Can you please tell the forum what happens when a BB receives a full spread of torps?

 

Can you please tell the forum what happens when they repair that said flood and then gets set on fire by the same DD or anything else? Proving that BB survives from the torps in the first place. 

 

or the other way around, which ever-way you like :cap_tea:.  That's just a single DD, speaking nothing about other ships finishing it off. 

 

A simple DD, which i know as i love playing them, have little to fear from BB's. Your completely underplaying DoT, the CV's rework RELIES on DoT to get their work done and they do a great job to make that work. 

 

1 minute ago, Panocek said:

Kremlin have 46% torpedo belt, bested only by Yamato at 55% at tier 10. SoDak class in game have 49%. Wurst have ultimate torpedo belt in shape of German Hydro.

 

Again, why are you going on about torpbelts? I never did... But don't forget tier 8 ships that see tier 10, like the Alabma, Massa, Mash ect with fantasic torp belts.  But why are we talking about belts and why does it matter regarding gun?

 

The fact of the matter is that the majority of BB's take alot of damage from torps.

 

So again, do you think that torps arnt doing the damage or impact they should?

 

Oh and that's great when Hyrdo is running, dead in the water when it's not.  See the difference? Any German, french or RN BB that gets torps punched into it's sides hurts....alot. I mean death strike kinda damage. 

 

But i don't have a problem with that at all, they should do, it's a bloody torp.

 

1 minute ago, Panocek said:

I guess these 3% make all the difference between crap and great:Smile_smile:

 

To be honest mate, I actually thought the krem had a lower torp belt, so that's my bad. But i'm not sure how we got onto torps belts anyway.  CV's should be the ones lobbing torps belts as it's pathetic seeing Haka torps cause pitterful damage to a Yam. But i'm not really bothered about the rework CV's anyway and it's up to those guys to bring that up.

 

_______

 

The fact of the matter again *sigh* is that DD's and light cruisers already have the tools, which is clearly evident, to hurt BB's without the need to directly HE damage them too.  Fire is such a potent weapon like the Smol has clearly highlighted in full, creating 15 fires per match and that's with IFHE. 

 

It's bad for the game and it's bad for BB players melting.  You cheese BB players off and we all know what will happen, WG will do more stupid stuff more.  Introducing the Smol and Colbert WILL and HAVE cheese BB players off, it's already happening in my own clan. 

 

@Panocek you know i respect you and all that. But there is simply too much HE being thrown around in great numbers (more than ever) and those that pen 32mm arnt helping to situation one bit, only making it worse. 

 

Lets see what the IFHE nerf/Balance brings to the table shall we, that could and hopefully change things up. 

 

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17 minutes ago, Redcap375 said:

Can you please tell the forum what happens when a BB receives a full spread of torps?

The only way to "receive full spread of torps" is to [edited]up spectacularly.

 

17 minutes ago, Redcap375 said:

Can you please tell the forum what happens when they repair that said flood and then gets set on fire by the same DD or anything else? Proving that BB survives from the torps in the first place. 

Flood was nerfed to be as "lethal" as fire. With maxed out DoT reduction you can pretty much ignore any DoT unless you're bothered with secondary effects - detection penalty or speed loss or out of heals.

 

17 minutes ago, Redcap375 said:

Your completely underplaying DoT, the CV's rework RELIES on DoT to get their work done and they do a great job to make that work. 

Except DoT from torpedoes is 404 not found, compounded by flood nerf.

 

17 minutes ago, Redcap375 said:

Again, why are you going on about torpbelts? I never did...

590813864774467584.gif

54 minutes ago, Redcap375 said:

I simply stated that the Krem and Kurf (the two you mentioned) have crap torp belts, which they do.

 

 

17 minutes ago, Redcap375 said:

But there is simply too much HE being thrown around in great numbers (more than ever) and those that pen 32mm arnt helping to situation one bit, only making it worse. 

And yet, despite "all the HE and fires" available in game since day one, AP is still main threat to battleships.

 

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28 minutes ago, Hanse77SWE said:

When I first got mine I played a Co-OP just to test her. A Kremlin put two (2) shells through my bow and took me for 27k.

 

Was you in smoke or was you behind an island when you got hit? Or in the open....

 

28 minutes ago, Hanse77SWE said:

She's squishiy, clumsy and her shells shatter more than not. If you camp she'll burn you down so the best way to deal with her is to push at her. Focus her and she'll melt pretty fast.

 

She is clumsy and squishy, no doubt mate.

 

But there isnt many players that will try to run into smoke knowing that torps will be around the corner and slammed into their face.  I have even torped rush one trying to get into my smoke, didn't end well for him even after he one salvo my bow and i survived..He didnt. 

 

Or trying to rush 15km worth of distance into smoke putting him 15 km away from his own team in randoms.  that simply invits cross fires and being focused to death.

 

I totally agree it's one way to counter it, but you need to tick all the boxes before you do something like that and in most randoms games, it isn't always possible.  Especially during the initial stages where you do the damage. 

 

 

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29 minutes ago, Panocek said:

The only way to "receive full spread of torps" is to [edited]up spectacularly.

 

I'll tell that to the majority of players that play this game then.:cap_tea:

 

Quote

Flood was nerfed to be as "lethal" as fire. With maxed out DoT reduction you can pretty much ignore any DoT unless you're bothered with secondary effects - detection penalty or speed loss or out of heals.

590813864774467584.gif Great advice, fellow chaps, just ignore floods as they are nothing to worry about. Lol.  Fire doesn't really matter as we all have heal, SI and Premium heals to counter that jazz anyway. Lol 

 

Quote

Except DoT from torpedoes is 404 not found, compounded by flood nerf.

 

Again, ill tell that to the majority of players that play this game. Floods hurt and kill BB's,and you know that, why are you being so flippant:cap_like:

 

Quote

590813864774467584.gif

 

I said that the Krem (wrongly) and the Kurf (rightly) had poor armour belts.

 

You was the one that waffled on about torp belts after that initial observation.  Something about immunity torps and masterrace stuff? God knows to be honest.  

 

Quote

 

And yet, despite "all the HE and fires" available in game since day one, AP is still main threat to battleships.

 

 

 

31-funny-you-miss-the-point-cartoon.jpg

 

There is no words to be honest....

 

There isn't any point carrying on this debate as you clearly know what i mean but are blatantly ignoring the point in question.

 

So in a nut shell:

 

1) DD's should not be able to pen 32mm of armour

2) The Smol and Colbert is really BAD for the meta, something that WG was against but now back because of reason (ho ho)

3) CL's should not not be owning CA's with their rate of fire

 

:cap_tea:

 

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5 minutes ago, Redcap375 said:

I'll tell that to the majority of players that play this game then.:cap_tea:

To balance for majority of players we should have automated main guns and automated movement, so Average PlayerTM can play tetris in peace:cap_book:

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20 minutes ago, Panocek said:

To balance for majority of players we should have automated main guns and automated movement, so Average PlayerTM can play tetris in peace:cap_book:

 

I feel your pain.  But WG will always cater to the majority of players. They pay the bills.

 

And i wouldn't put automated guns out the picture knowing WG. :cap_haloween:

 

 

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5 hours ago, Redcap375 said:

But there isnt many players that will try to run into smoke knowing that torps will be around the corner and slammed into their face.  I have even torped rush one trying to get into my smoke, didn't end well for him even after he one salvo my bow and i survived..He didnt. 

 

Or trying to rush 15km worth of distance into smoke putting him 15 km away from his own team in randoms.  that simply invits cross fires and being focused to death.

 

I totally agree it's one way to counter it, but you need to tick all the boxes before you do something like that and in most randoms games, it isn't always possible.  Especially during the initial stages where you do the damage. 

 

 

I didn't say "Rush smoke". I said "push" as in apply pressure and keep moving.

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On 8/25/2019 at 1:34 AM, MacArthur92 said:

I think there are 3 threads about Smolensk, no need 4th one.

@Excavatus

Does it waste 1kb on the server space or in your private space? 

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21 minutes ago, clocky said:

Does it waste 1kb on the server space or in your private space? 

Does it make more mess? Yes.

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Having just gotten mine and played a few games, I kinda think that Smolensk isn't as OP as people think it is. Yes, I've sucked in the couple of games I've played, and yes, you can say "well you're just defending it because you got one yourself". I'm actually not intending to defend it, because a ship can be toxic without being OP.

 

Is increasing non-stop HE spam good for the game? Absolutely not.

Is adding a new ship with combination of smoke and HE rain good for the game? Absolutely not.

Does Smolensk make it's team stronger. Mostly no.

 

Smolenks has pretty much 0 utility. It has good AA, but that's pretty much it. Can mount hydro but good luck using that offensively and not just protecting your own behind while you sit in smoke. Yes you could share your smoke with other ships, but any US DD does that better. Only thing Smolensk brings into a game is damage potential. And that potential is very static. Smolensk cannot push and it cannot kite (or can try but I'd say it sucks at it, or I just suck at it). Mostly it can only spam HE in smoke or over islands. There are many ships that can do that too, some I would say even better than Smolensk. Harugumo has 32mm HE pen vs 28mm of Smolensk (both with IFHE). Lower fire change and less guns but even quicker reload, and better torpedos with reload booster. Iirc worse ballistics though with less range. But Harugumo also is a DD and thus much stealthier even though it's not a very stealthy DD. Wooster also has 32mm pen with ballistics better suited at hugging islands. It doesn't have smoke but has radar, hydro and AA boost all in one ship. Then there's Colbert but I don't have that nor have I really faced it in battle, and opinion seems to be that it's also OP, so no point in comparing to that here.

 

Biggest problem for me doesn't really seem to be that Smolensk is OP (if it even is), it's just that smoke+he spam doesn't really have counterplay, islandhugging+he spam even less. Rushing to radar is often too risky and putting torps into smoke too unreliable nad takes a while for torpedos to get there if launched from safe distance. I would argue that Zao is superior HE-sling and firestarter, but Zao is fine because it has counterplay (just shoot back). Then there's WG's habit of putting too much value on damage and kills and rewarding that. It's very easy to get to the top of a team in exp with Smolensk, which of course affects the perception of how good the ship is.

 

Also I think it's too early to look at gameplay stats too much. Afaik they show CC stats too from testing period, and that can inflate them a lot. The usual "better players get them early" appllies too. Just wait for me to drag the stats down to acceptable :cap_rambo:

 

Still, I can accept a rate of fire nerf, fire change nerf or even taking away smoke, but taking away smoke would make a buff elsewhere necessary (survivability comes to mind). Don't give it radar though.

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Fire nerf.  That's how i would deal with it nerf wise. Taking smoke away would just turn it into a Colbert clone. 

 

It sets TOOOO many fires so only having 27 mm pen don't really matter as you set that many fires on BB's anyway.

 

I could be a complete git and get rid of IFHE and put DE instead with ALL HE flags.  That is currently one hell of an accurate fire starter, but i prefer to murder cruisers instead with IFHE. 

 

 

 

 

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