The Kriegsmarine in WoWs-Episode 3: Light cruisers

[Altair2012]

Part 1

Part 2

 

Today we will be looking at the post WWI light cruisers. Since there is more information available about the actually build cruisers this article will be a little more detailed than the previous posts. I hope you don't mind.

 

After losing the first world war Germany was bound by the Versailles treaty. The production of new ships was strictly limited as well as the composition of the fleet. The Reichsmarine (German Navy 1921-1935) was allowed six cruisers with a limitation of 6000 tons displacement. Ships were only to be replaced after 15-20 years, depending on class. No development of armament technology was allowed.

 

Emden:

After founding the Navy in 1921 it was soon decided that a training ship was needed to teach seamanship. The design was inspired by the Cöln class (1914) but never intended to participate in combat. The armament should have consisted of 4x2x150mm but the Allied military commission denied permission to develop the dual turrets. Therefore Emden was fitted with 8x1x150mm guns (2 at the bow, 4 midships and 2 aft), surplus from the first world war and 2x2x503mm torpedo tubes(4x2 was intended).

After four years the ship was completed in 1925 and went on various cruises around the world. In 1933 the coal fired boilers were replaced with oil fired ones. Speed remained at 29 knots. Additionally 4x2 533mm torpedo tubes replaced the two old launchers. AA consisted of 2 88mm guns, a third was added in 1934. Between 1938 and 1945 a total of 9x37mm and 6x20mm anti-air guns were installed. A refit featuring 4  of the 150mm dual turret from the Zerstörer 1936A was never realized.

 

Picture

 

In WoWs:

Basically a Phoenix or a Kuma. Little to none armor, okayish guns and a couple torpedoes. Not bad, but nothing to get excited about. The gun upgrade could be included to increase your broadside punch.

 

Königsberg (K-Class):

Germany's first combat cruisers after the great war. Designed to bring a serious punch to the battle and good speed in mind armor protection was sacrificed as well as stability (one ship nearly broke apart in a typhoon). Engine power was rated 65000 shp (shaft horsepower) but was exceeded to 68000 shp in trials giving 32,5 knots (32 with regular power).

 

The intended role of the K class was scouting for a main fleet so two of the three turrets (3x3x150mm) (this time the allies allowed development of a new turret design) were aft in a superfiring position to cover a possible retreat. The special feature of the Königsberg class was the placement of the rear turrets. Placed 2m offset from the center line all guns could fire to the front, above the superstructure. This was not often done because the blast could cause damage to said superstructure. The turrets could traverse with 6-8 degrees/second. That gives a 180 degree traverse time of 22-30 seconds. The guns could be reloaded in 7.5 seconds resulting in a rate of fire of 8 rpm.

 

Additional armament consisted of 4x3 torpedo tubes (503, 533 since 1940) and 2x1x88mm DP (3x2 later). In the 1930s the ships were modified to carry 3 Scout planes and 8x37mm as well as 8x20mm were added.

 

Armor was light. The armored deck had a thickness of 20-40mm, the belt was 50mm, the conning tower 100mm thick. Later additional 10-14 mm of belt and 16mm deck armor were added.

 

Schematic

Picture

 

In WoWs:

A solid T5. Good firepower and mobility. The AA is mediocre at best. Although you have DP batteries and could therefore get the increase AA firepower skill, most of your AA will still be short ranged. The ship would be to fragile for T6. Also the design is quite unique and I am looking forward to see it in-game.

 

Leipzig-Class:

After reviewing the Königsberg-Class a improved version was designed, keeping the same main battery. Two ships were ordered, the Leipzig and the Nürnberg although the Nürnberg was modified heavily and is considered a separate class by some. 177/181m long with a beam of 16,3m the ships displaced 8100/9040 metric tons.

The rear turrets were positioned back at the center-line. Improvements to the engine and armor were made. Especially the Nürnberg received a new armor alloy (Wotan Hart). To sum it up, most of the armor was increased by 10-20mm. Both ships had seaplanes and 4x3 torpedo tubes (Leipzig first had 503mm, later on both ships had 533mm tubes).

Leipzig had 2x1x88mm as initial AA which was later improved to 6x1x88mm, 8x37mm and 14x20mm.

Nürnberg was initially fitted with 4x2x88mm 4x2x37mm and 8x20mm. This was later improved by 2x4x20mm, a new version of the 37mm guns (doubling rate of fire) and a plan to mount the 40mm Bofors guns.

Between 1941 and 43 new radar as well as radar warning gear were installed.

Capable of a speed of 32 knots these ships were described as exceptionally maneuverable due to a balanced rudder and a special gear to support the rudder.

 

Leipzig:

ONI Information

Picture

Nürnberg:

ONI Information

Picture

 

In WoWs:

An improvement over the Königsberg-Class. While the primary firepower doesn’t improve, the secondaries become better as well as the AA. Armor and maneuverability are increased and therefore it is a suitable T-6. 20m shorter than the Cleveland and 5 than the Aoba these ships would be the smallest T6 so far. That gives them better stealth and maneuverability compared to other T6 ships. So far they seem to have the potential to be a perfectly balanced mid tier ship. The Leipzig would be the basic hull while the Nürnberg would be the upgrade (maybe with a basic and a 1945 version)

 

M-class:

After 1933 a naval re-equipment program was considered. Several suggestions were made and in 1939 Hitler ordered the Z-Plan to be realized, which emphasized a focus on commerce raiding. One part of this plan was the M class cruisers with 6 ships. Inspired by the British Southampton and the French La Galissonnière cruiser classes the M-class should have been 183m long and with 17m beam was calculated to displace 8500 tons. Speed was 35,5 knots.

The 8 150mm main guns were to be placed in 4 dual turrets (2 at the bow, two at the stern). 2x4 torpedo tubes were to be fitted as well as 2x2x88mm DP guns, 8x37mm and 4-8x20mm.  An improved version of the M class was the Q class which featured more crew space, improved AA (1x2 88mm and better fire control) and 0,5 knots more speed.

 

Schematic

 

Credit for finding this

 

In WoWs:

Most of the new features of this class don’t give you anything in WoWs. More range for example. I see this as a sidegrade to the Leipzig class. A little less firepower but faster. Eight 5.9 inch simply won't do the trick at T7.

 

Spähkreuzer 1938/40:

Based upon the Zerstörer 1938A this was a supposed recon ship (Spähkreuzer literally means scout/recon/watching cruiser) as part of Plan Z. 22 ships were planned, which would have been a hybrid between destroyers and light cruisers capable of 35,5 knots. The initial design was supposed to be 152m long and have a 14,8m beam. Displacement should have been 5713 tons.

Armament should have consisted of 3x2x150mm, 1 at the bow, 2 at the stern together with a dual 88mm Flak. 2 quintuple 533mm  torpedoes were mounted amidships (like at the Fletcher class). 8x37 and 8x20mm was the intended AA.

After the first combat experience various changes were made resulting in the Spähkreuzer 40. 10m longer and 1,2m wider, displacing 7500 tons and 0,7 knots faster (36,2 knots). Armor was improved from 10 mm to 20-25 mm at the deck and from 18 mm to 20-25 mm at the belt and additional 2 88 mm guns were added.

 

Spähkreuzer 38

Spähkreuzer 40

 

In WoWs:

These ships would be lacking identity. Too weak to be cruisers in adequate tiers and too big to be destroyers. These ships would be destroyer hunters and capable of hurting other cruisers (although not as good as dedicated cruisers). They could be used to connect the cruiser and destroyer trees but starting at cruisers, otherwise you would go from T8-9 destroyers to T5 cruisers. Since you can either choose historical progression or gameplay wise logical progression you see where we end up.

I have to admit that these ships would be tough to balance properly. Splitting the 38 and the 40 would seem logical because the difference would be too large to be a hull upgrade.

 

The tech tree for cruisers will be included in the next post (CAs) which will be out in the next days.

 

[Markhand]

Damn dude. Thanks for the post! Like to see that you also added schematic i threw in for the M-class earlier aswell!

[mr3awsome]

I'd say that the Spahkreuzer would fit best as end tier (9 & 10) destroyers.

[Altair2012]

I'd say that the Spahkreuzer would fit best as end tier (9 & 10) destroyers.

 

There are better options for T 9 and 10. Also a 7500ton ship as a destoroyer which is more than 160m long when the other T10s replace the half would be problematic. And it has -kreuzer in its name which literally means cruiser. 

[deathrow222]

nice topic m8  really like it +1

 

[Markhand]

 

There are better options for T 9 and 10. Also a 7500ton ship as a destoroyer which is more than 160m long when the other T10s replace the half would be problematic. And it has -kreuzer in its name which literally means cruiser. 

 

You seem to say that there are better light cruisers for T9 and T10? Or do you mean going from Light to Heavy cruisers in the same tech tree line? As far as i understand there's barely any light cruisers that germany considered, same with heavy cruisers. 

[Altair2012]

 

You seem to say that there are better light cruisers for T9 and T10? Or do you mean going from Light to Heavy cruisers in the same tech tree line?

 

I mean better T10 destroyers. At the current state of the game light cruisers are not viable above T7, maybe 8. I therefore would put the Spähkreuzer as a step between the cruiser and destroyer trees. No T9 or T10 CLs. If there is a general re-balancing, maybe

[Adwaenyth]

 

There are better options for T 9 and 10. Also a 7500ton ship as a destoroyer which is more than 160m long when the other T10s replace the half would be problematic. And it has -kreuzer in its name which literally means cruiser. 

 

Well the modern Baden-Württemberg class are officially classified as frigates (!) while having a displacement of 7200 tons and 150m length. I'd say that qualifies for these to be destroyers. 

[Historynerd]

Perhaps I'm seeing apples and oranges as one thing, but to me the Spahkreuzer reminds me a bit of the Italian Capitani Romani-class light cruisers, which Daemon93 in his tree proposals suggests would fit in the destroyer category; I repeat, maybe they're not comparable (the Spahkreuzer would be somewhat slower, but would have better torpedo capabilities), but this is the impression I got. So, maybe they really ought to be put in as DDs...

[mr3awsome]

 

There are better options for T 9 and 10. Also a 7500ton ship as a destoroyer which is more than 160m long when the other T10s replace the half would be problematic. And it has -kreuzer in its name which literally means cruiser. 

 

There are, but they would provide a nice bit of variety.

And names aren't always the closest things to the truth. e.g. the Courageous class Large Light Cruisers

[Altair2012]

Perhaps I'm seeing apples and oranges as one thing, but to me the Spahkreuzer reminds me a bit of the Italian Capitani Romani-class light cruisers, which Daemon93 in his tree proposals suggests would fit in the destroyer category; I repeat, maybe they're not comparable (the Spahkreuzer would be somewhat slower, but would have better torpedo capabilities), but this is the impression I got. So, maybe they really ought to be put in as DDs...

 

The Capitani Romani has weaker main guns and is 2500 tons lighter. The Spähkreuzer (especially the 40 version) is massive. I see your point but I think that there are better T9 and T10 destroyer options (more like an actual destroyer). You could make them high tier destroyers but they fit perfectly for a bridge between lines. And the Zerstörer 1938A features the same armament while being smaller.

[Markhand]

Suffice to say, the german tree will be very interesting, although i would visually see several BC/BB lines with 1 line of destroyers and a 50/50 cruiser line where T1-T5 = CL and T6-T10 = CA.

 

Altair2012, on 01 May 2015 - 08:05 PM, said:

 

The Capitani Romani has weaker main guns and is 2500 tons lighter. The Spähkreuzer (especially the 40 version) is massive. I see your point but I think that there are better T9 and T10 destroyer options (more like an actual destroyer). You could make them high tier destroyers but they fit perfectly for a bridge between lines. And the Zerstörer 1938A features the same armament while being smaller.

 

So those 2 are sort of "intertwined" as a unique selection between destroyer and cruiser in the line? Would be very interesting. They do have a very weird "position" classwise.

 

[Unintentional_submarine]

I'm actually interested in seeing what WG will do with SMS Blücher. Can't really fit her in with the BBs, 21cm guns simply don't cut it there, and her armour is too weak anyway. But on the other hand she is pretty heavy for a regular CA, with much heavier armour and obviously armament (main battery is comparable, but her secondaries would be beyond anything else). Also can't really put her high in any tree due to her lack of AA, and by then, speed.

 

But they can't possibly leave her out.

[Historynerd]

 

The Capitani Romani has weaker main guns and is 2500 tons lighter. The Spähkreuzer (especially the 40 version) is massive. I see your point but I think that there are better T9 and T10 destroyer options (more like an actual destroyer). You could make them high tier destroyers but they fit perfectly for a bridge between lines. And the Zerstörer 1938A features the same armament while being smaller.

 

Well, I knew they weren't exactly the same, but I had missed the 40 being so much bigger. Thanks.

[Altair2012]

I'm actually interested in seeing what WG will do with SMS Blücher. Can't really fit her in with the BBs, 21cm guns simply don't cut it there, and her armour is too weak anyway. But on the other hand she is pretty heavy for a regular CA, with much heavier armour and obviously armament (main battery is comparable, but her secondaries would be beyond anything else). Also can't really put her high in any tree due to her lack of AA, and by then, speed.

 

But they can't possibly leave her out.

 

She is lighter and smaller than the Admiral Hipper class heavy cruiser. There was also a Blücher in the Hipper class.

[Aldramelech]

Nice info an interesting read

[Unintentional_submarine]

 

She is lighter and smaller than the Admiral Hipper class heavy cruiser. There was also a Blücher in the Hipper class.

 

I said she was 'pretty heavy' for a regular CA, the Admiral Hipper class was just even more so, if only by a relatively little bit. But Blücher was 40 meters, or 20% shorter than the Hippers. So she was built much more stoutly, and obviously with less space dedicated to engines. Armour was considerably heavier than on any heavy cruiser, seeing as she really was a transitional design between armoured cruisers, heavy cruisers and battlecruisers.

[BigEXP]

Thanks for the episode-3,

 

She is lighter and smaller than the Admiral Hipper class heavy cruiser. There was also a Blücher in the Hipper class.

there is also a Deutschland-class heavy cruiser which has 28 cm triple turrets, is that an Hipper-class too ?

[Unintentional_submarine]

Thanks for the episode-3,

there is also a Deutschland-class heavy cruiser which has 28 cm triple turrets, is that an Hipper-class too ?

 

I wonder about those as well. Would be a pretty unique cruiser gameplay to use them.

[Comander_07]

If they cant get balanced properly, maybe premium?

 

Nice work btw!

[Altair2012]

Unintentional_submarine, on 01 May 2015 - 10:34 PM, said:

 

I wonder about those as well. Would be a pretty unique cruiser gameplay to use them.

 

BigEXP, on 01 May 2015 - 10:31 PM, said:

Thanks for the episode-3,

there is also a Deutschland-class heavy cruiser which has 28 cm triple turrets, is that an Hipper-class too ?

 

This and more in the next episode which will be out at the end of the weekend. But Hipper and Deutschland are two different classes.
 

Comander_07, on 01 May 2015 - 10:52 PM, said:

If they cant get balanced properly, maybe premium?

 

Nice work btw!

 

Thanks. I would use them as a bridge between two trees like the T-43 or the old VK 3002DB over at tanks. Premium would work too, but why not use them in the tree? (or make 1 premium and the other one a regular ship)
 

Markhand, on 01 May 2015 - 09:09 PM, said:

Suffice to say, the german tree will be very interesting, although i would visually see several BC/BB lines with 1 line of destroyers and a 50/50 cruiser line where T1-T5 = CL and T6-T10 = CA.

 

Pretty much this although the German T9 and T10 in every line will be very unique.
 

[Markhand]

 

 

This and more in the next episode which will be out at the end of the weekend. But Hipper and Deutschland are two different classes.

 

Pretty much this although the German T9 and T10 in every line will be very unique.

 

 

Have Wargaming decided yet on the H41 or H42? I'm hoping H42. Was the first of the mega battleships they designed with no limitations except that max speed would be 30 knots.

[mr3awsome]

 

Have Wargaming decided yet on the H41 or H42? I'm hoping H42. Was the first of the mega battleships they designed with no limitations except that max speed would be 30 knots.

 

Its H-41 until said otherwise.

[Crooq_Lionfang]

H41 for tier X last I heard, H42 is seen as too unrealistic

[Unintentional_submarine]

H41 for tier X last I heard, H42 is seen as too unrealistic

 

No wonder. H42 is where everything sane start to get thrown out of the window. H41 could technically have been built, H42-44 couldn't really.