Submarines with acoustic torpedoes. Bad idea or good?

[Elektroboot]

Since Baleo class submarine is confirmed, let's talk about acoustic torpedoes, rumours say Baleo will come equipped with post-war acoustic torpedoes.


An acoustic torpedo is a torpedo that aims itself by listening for characteristic sounds of its target or by searching for it using sonar (acoustic homing). Acoustic torpedoes are usually designed for medium-range use and often fired from a submarine.

The first passive acoustic torpedoes were developed independently and nearly simultaneously by the Allies and the Germans during World War II. The Germans developed the G7e/T4 Falke, which was first deployed in March 1943.

However, this early model was actually used in combat by only three German U-Boats. It was not until after the deployment of the T-4's successor, the G7es T-5 Zaunkönig torpedo in August 1943 that Germany began to use passive acoustic torpedoes in substantial numbers; the T-5 first saw widespread use in September 1943. This weapon was developed to attack escort vessels and merchant ships in convoys.

Acoustic homing torpedoes are equipped with a pattern of acoustic transducers on the nose of the weapon. By a process of phase delaying the signals from these transducers a series of "acoustic beams" (variation of acoustic signal sensitivity dependent on the incident angle of the noise energy). In early homing torpedoes the "beam patterns" were fixed whereas in more modern weapons the patterns were modifiable under on-board computer control. These sensor systems are capable of either detecting sound originating from the target itself for example engine and machinery noise, propellor cavitation, etc., known as passive sonar, or responding to noise energy reflections as a result of "illuminating" the target with sonar pulses, known as active sonar. Acoustic torpedoes can be compared to modern fire-and-forget guided missiles.

What this means is the enemy (most likely a submarine) will be detected by sonar in any direction it goes. The torpedo will start with a passive sonar, simply trying to detect the submarine. Once the torpedo's passive sonar has detected something, it will switch over to active sonar and will begin to track the target. At this point, the submarine has probably started evasive maneuvers and may have even deployed a noisemaker. The torpedo's logic circuitry, if not fooled by the noisemaker, will home in on the noise signature of the target submarine.

This "confidential" U.S. Navy training film gives an overview of the operation of the air-launched, acoustic homing torpedoes designed for anti-submarine and anti-ship use. The film discusses the difference between active and passive torpedoes and goes on to describe the operation of the active type torpedoes.

At 2:57 the passive Fido acoustic torpedo, also known as the Mine Mark 24, is shown. At 3:18 the Mark 27 Mod 0 acoustic torpedo is shown. USS Chivo (SS-341), a Balao-class submarine, is seen in the background. At 3:36 the Mark 28 Torpedo is seen, similar to the Mark 18. At 3:50 the Mark 34 Torpedo is shown. At 4:00 the Mark 27 Mod 4 is shown. At 4:15, passive torpedoes are shown. At 4:25 active torpedoes are shown including the Mark 32 Mod 1, the Mark 41 Mod 0, the Mark 43 Mod 0 and the Mark 41 Mod 1. The Mark 35 Mod 12 is also shown, but is not discussed in the film. At 5:09 an early Piasecki PV-3 / HRP helicopter is shown dropping an active torpedo. The animation then shows the "pinging" of the torpedo, as it turns and dives to search for a target (making a search circle). At 6;23 the pursuit circle is defined, and the "on/off steering" method that the torpedo uses to find its target are discussed. At 7:17, the final search circle is entered and the explosive charge is detonated. At 7:43 some of the non-optimal situations that a torpedo might encounter are shown, including shallow depth "angle blanking". At 8:54 the Mark 32 Mod 1 is shown, capable of being dropped from a blimp or surface ship. Its characteristics are then discussed. At 11:00, the Mark 41 Mod 0 is shown, an anti-submarine weapon only launched by aircraft. At 13:42 the Mark 43 Mod 0 is shown, again being dropped by a PV-3 helicopter. The torpedo's method of operation is then discussed. At 16:05, the Mark 43 Mod 1 is shown and its characteristics are discussed. At 19:48 the Mark 43, Mod 1, is shown being rigged for electrical firing, and its arming system is shown.

What is your opinion if acoustic torpedoes will be in-game? Will it completely break the game if WG introduces it in with submarines? Or do you think it could possibly be a good game mechanic with the right counter gameplay mechanics such as noisemakers or managing your vessels sound output?

UPDATE 21/8
Active acoustic torpedoes are confirmed work in progress in recent leaks.
https://imgur.com/a/uRhdSNs
Once you fire, you need to manually ping the target for the torpedo to lock on.

Your ping gives away your last position to the enemy.

 

 

[Tyrendian89]

impossible to tell at this point, seeing as we have literally zero information on the actual implementation.... but thanks for the info on how they worked historically (and thus how they definitely WONT work ingame )

[Jethro_Grey]

No homing torps, rockets, shells, beams or deathrays in WoWS EVER!

 

That‘s not a bad idea, it’s a horribly stupid terrible one.

 

no offense to you OP, but that would open a can of fire breathing, acid spitting, stone devouring can of worms with a bad attitude. 

 

 

I like the history lesson tho, which I miss in Jingles latest videos. +1 for effort, but pls no homing shenanigans in WoWS.

[Benser33]

I have wondered a few times since the intial introduction of SS how they would engage each other beneath the surface, considering how restricted SS are in terms of mobility and their torpedo firing angles, simply aiming at a target that can move across multiple axes with any degree of accuracy seems extremely difficult, let along maneuvering to defend yourself at the same time. Torpedoes that "home" might be the answer, but just how manueverable are homing torpedos? What sort of turning circle could you expect from one?

 

Also, if SS receive such torpedoes, whats to stop other surface vessels or CVs from expecting them as well. Potentially an interesting gimmicks but also potentially a balance nightmare or recipe for something quite overpowered.

[Elektroboot]

I myself hope that these acoustic torpedoes won't be added in-game, just it's scary to think if WG is seriously considering it. If the rumors and talks on social media are real.

[Molly_Delaney]

Could be more self-torpedoing if they go active too soon, so whilst educational for submarine players probably not a good thing.

And as the Kriegsmarine had them first probably won't be introduced....

[black_falcon120]

I mean, I can see both sides of the argument, I can't see a class being fun with just torpedoes as you're too reliant on the stupidity of your enemies.

 

On the other hand, if I wanted to play a hyper realistic submarine simulator, I'd play another game.  And I can't see it being fun to play against without some sort of counter play, e.g. blowing them out of the water with main/secondary battery.  

 

That said, I seriously doubt the torpedoes will be similar to mk. 48s  in other games set in modern times.  I suspect they'll have to get within 100m or so to activate homing? 

 

edit: if it works against DDs, that would be broken, smokes would become death traps. 

 

edit 2: anti-submarine weapons are probably a good idea though, it'll let CVs hit submarines as they historically did. 

[KillStealBoss]

Very

Bad

Idea

[Dangerhamster]

Speaking as someone who has managed to torpedo THEMSELVES with an acoustic homer in SH3, hell no.

Mind you, the whole concept of trying to shoehorn subs in because the marketing dept thinks it's a great idea gets a hell no from me. The sub event was fun but that's as far as it should go.

[MAD_3R_Marauder]

If I want this, I'll play Cold Waters - not that this doesn't go for the whole submarines idea, mind you.

[LemonadeWarriorITA]

Mmm... it increases the chances of getting teammates that can actually hit something... interesting

 

[Ubertron_X]

My opinion?

 

Spoiler

 

 

[Spellfire40]

Bad idia plus ww2 arcustic torps needed a certain noice level to work plus what do you need them even for? arent 63 to 75 kn torps lanched from a stealthy platform with around 1.6 detection good enogh?

They also experimented with ship to ship missles and it was even fun but ditched it since it dont fit wows......on the other hand it would be kind of hilarious if some sub shot some arcustic torps at you you went to 1/4 speed and they changed target to an friedly DD that was trying to chase you down......

 

If they want some Torpoption seting it should be DW or normal deep seting with DW dealing more damage or reducing Torp defence % penaltys of BBs.......

[Episparh]

@Elektroboot

 

I will rather not have submarines at all. That idea is plainly stupid. 

 

P. S. What will happen if target switch-off engine and slide away? What if there is a closer friendly ship with more noisy engine? Or yo forgot about that? 

[ImperialAdmiral]

Just speaking hypothetical a German G7es torpedo could for example track ships that are moving but completely ignore stationary targets.

[MrWastee]

= moar camping... 1st one moves, dies lol.

[Elektroboot]

5 minutes ago, Episparh said:

@Elektroboot

 

I will rather not have submarines at all. That idea is plainly stupid. 

 

P. S. What will happen if target switch-off engine and slide away? What if there is a closer friendly ship with more noisy engine? Or yo forgot about that? 

There been talk WG actually disabling friendly fire completely in the future, I'm not advocating these torpedoes. I simply am curious about how the community thinks about them. Just it's highly likely WG will experiment or try to add it since Balao class sub is considered in-game and someone posted datasheet of top tier subs with acoustic torpedoes mentioned.

[Prospect_b]

No, and no submarines to begin with.

 

TLC even had a song about that: No, I don't want no sub. A sub is a boat that can't get no love from me.

[Spellfire40]

14 minutes ago, ImperialAdmiral said:

Just speaking hypothetical a German G7es torpedo could for example track ships that are moving but completely ignore stationary targets.

They needed a certain noise level and if you shoot one at a stationary ship it would still go strait unless there was enogh noice to home on somewere else. also ww2 tech could detect noise not specific ship noise so contermesures that were rather primitiv towed mechanical noisemakers worked agist them as would probably explosing deep charges or he shells exploding in the water.......anything with an active sonar warhead would be deep coldwar tech in the same timeslot as early SSMs and out of teh timeline for WoWS.

 

If you want to see what early real guided torps were play an early Cold Water game. Rather fun to have wire guided mid 20kn weapons when your oponent could go for 30 kn sprints..........

[Episparh]

4 minutes ago, Elektroboot said:

There been talk WG actually disabling friendly fire completely in the future, I'm not advocating these torpedoes. I simply am curious about how the community thinks about them. Just it's highly likely WG will experiment or try to add it since Balao class sub is considered in-game and someone posted datasheet of top tier subs with acoustic torpedoes mentioned.

Yeah, some potatoes can't watch their torps so they cry and whine over the forum for years. This game is getting dumber and dumber with every new milenial installing the game client. 

 

A stealthy ship with guiding armament is nothing that the gene needs. PERIOD! 

[Elektroboot]

2 minutes ago, Spellfire40 said:

They needed a certain noice level and if you shoot one at a stationary ship it would still go strait unless there was enogh noice to home on somewere else. also ww2 tech could detect noise not specific ship noise so contermesures that were rather primitiv towed mechanical noisemakers worked agist them as would probably explosing deep charges or he shells exploding in the water.......anything with an active sonar warhead would be deep coldwar tech in the same timeslot as early SSMs and out of teh timeline for WoWS.

 

If you want to see what early real guided torps were play an early Cold Water game. Rather fun to have wire guided mid 20kn weapons when your oponent could go for 30 kn sprints..........

If you're referring to T5, it's a medium-range passive acoustic torpedo with the range being 5km and is specifically designed to hone the pitch sound of escort vessels propellor cavitation such as the flower class corvette. In paper, the concept was brilliant except since it's a passive torpedo it listens to sounds and follows it. The allies just had to make a decoy that makes a louder sound than the propellor, so they made a device called the Foxer which is basically a metal tube with holes that does a really loud sound. 700 german fired acoustic torpedoes about only 77 had found their aim, so the sound decoys did their job. You can imagine how much Kriegsmarine lost money on developing and producing those expensive torpedoes only to be countered by a cheap metal tube.

Problem with the allied late 1945 acoustic torpedo that the Balao class submarine gets equipped with, it's an active acoustic torpedo. It has its own sonar and even has a fail-safe if it starts pinging the ocean floor so it will correct its angle in attempts to find and hone towards the right target. There's no counterplay towards that and I hope it won't get added.

 

[Spellfire40]

36 minutes ago, Elektroboot said:

If you're referring to T5, it's a medium-range passive acoustic torpedo with the range being 5km and is specifically designed to hone the pitch sound of escort vessels propellor cavitation such as the flower class corvette. In paper, the concept was brilliant except since it's a passive torpedo it listens to sounds and follows it. The allies just had to make a decoy that makes a louder sound than the propellor, so they made a device called the Foxer which is basically a metal tube with holes that does a really loud sound. 700 german fired acoustic torpedoes about only 77 had found their aim, so the sound decoys did their job. You can imagine how much Kriegsmarine lost money on developing and producing those expensive torpedoes only to be countered by a cheap metal tube.

Problem with the allied late 1945 acoustic torpedo that the Balao class submarine gets equipped with, it's an active acoustic torpedo. It has its own sonar and even has a fail-safe if it starts pinging the ocean floor so it will correct its angle in attempts to find and hone towards the right target. There's no counterplay towards that and I hope it won't get added.

 

Well the mk32 saw a limited production at the end of ww2 as the 1st active homing torp but was shelfed till the 50th when the mod i variant saw production as a destoyer torp.

source:https://maritime.org/doc/jolie/part1.htm

 

Even then they were rather slow not sure how efective they were in an enviroment were basically every navy fielded  Type XXI copys till they minaturized reactos enogh to build SSNs.

[lovelacebeer]

The second you open the door to acoustic torps you also open the door for all kinds of guided weapons such as the Fritz X guided bomb. We already have the lock on assistance with main guns and the torpedo assistance with aiming, we shouldn't make the game anymore idiot friendly by taking away from the skill of actually aiming  otherwise it only encourages mindless spamming. 

[Yedwy]

@OP let me ask you this m8

 

How do you fell about implementing guided anti submarine missiles while we are at it?

[Spellfire40]

Just now, lovelacebeer said:

The second you open the door to acoustic torps you also open the door for all kinds of guided weapons such as the Fritz X guided bomb. We already have the lock on assistance with main guns and the torpedo assistance with aiming, we shouldn't make the game anymore idiot friendly by taking away from the skill of actually aiming  otherwise it only encourages mindless spamming. 

Laser guided nuclear shells for Iowa?