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Gvozdika

Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) - The Balancing Nightmares....

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Let's see if WG intends to fully balance the interaction with all classes before allowing them out of the test environment.

My bed is they'll do the CV rework thing: ignore all interaction with other classes ( in that case AA ) and "fix" it later.

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57 minutes ago, Marblehead_1 said:

So what an instalation was mounted on stern of Maya? 

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83728fef83a27e832b49a5073aea5299.jpg

Maya36cm.jpg

Maya13cm.jpg

 

Models had to be based on some data especially if this is done by real PRO.

 

So why HMS Exeter had single rack on many blueprints? I'm sure that I saw similar racks on various blueprints like:

 

Also I saw Kent with rack:

 

Also as I remember newest HMS Exeter/York kits had them. Asking seriously.

 I've lost track of the amount of screw ups model kits have had regarding ships at most scales. I once had a Bismarck kit 1/200 from trumperter with the wrong bulkheads and masts (changed them shortly afterwards) Not to mention some wacky colour schemes that were never used by a ship or tank. A firefly tank without a 16 pounder?lol

 

Best thing to do mate is read the books regarding the ships (like I have).

 

The main reason for not having depth charges on those kinda ships were the role. All heavy cruisers expected to see heavy action and the last thing they wanted was depth charges on the deck. They didnt have the agility or turning cricle to think about dealing with subs. Subs targeted convoys and dds were the main defense against them.

 

Remember, heavy cruisers and BB hardly ever sailed alone but a part of a fleet or task force which consisted of plenty of DD s or CL. The last job expected of a heavy cruiser or BB was to sink subs.

 

They also couldnt be with other ammo and most DDs threw them off the deck quickly when heavy action was coming their way.

 

I would love them on the Exeter as I have it, but its not gonna be im afrade.

 

We could see the flower class coevett come out though for the RN?.:Smile_trollface:

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32 minutes ago, Redcap375 said:

 I've lost track of the amount of screw ups model kits have had regarding ships at most scales. I once had a Bismarck kit 1/200 from trumperter with the wrong bulkheads and masts (changed them shortly afterwards) Not to mention some wacky colour schemes that were never used by a ship or tank. A firefly tank without a 16 pounder?lol

 

Best thing to do mate is read the books regarding the ships (like I have).

 

The main reason for not having depth charges on those kinda ships were the role. All heavy cruisers expected to see heavy action and the last thing they wanted was depth charges on the deck. They didnt have the agility or turning cricle to think about dealing with subs. Subs targeted convoys and dds were the main defense against them.

 

They also couldnt be with other ammo and most DDs threw them off the deck quickly when heavy action was coming their way.

 

I would love them on the Exeter as I have it, but its not gonna be im afrade.

 

We could see the flower class coevett come out though for the RN?.:Smile_trollface:

Thanks for explanation! I'm sure that I have book about County class cruisers so I must to check this in home on my own. 

 

About models, yes, many models have errors but when I see model done by PRO I can think that author made more reaserch than normal scale modeller.

 

About Maya I found another info from combinedfleet.com which I think due to authors of site is good and viable source:

http://www.combinedfleet.com/maya_t.htm

 

21 December 1943:
Drydocked. Undergoes repairs and modification to an AA cruiser. Her No. 3 200-mm (8-inch) turret is removed as are her twin-mount 25-mm AA guns, 120-mm (4.7-inch) HA guns, twin torpedo tube mounts and the floatplane hangar. Thirteen Type 96 triple-mount 25-mm AA guns and six twin 127-mm HA guns are installed as are nine Type 96 single-mount 25-mm AA guns and 36 Type 93 13-mm MGs. Four Type 92 quadruple torpedo mounts, loaded with 16 Type 93 "Long Lance" torpedoes, are also fitted as is a Type 22 surface-search radar. A centerline depth charge rail is installed aft.

 

 

But Flowers is so awsome Milk cow scheme for WG although it could be good for some scenario mode. So many countries and even a DKM warship... WG pls. Interesting could be also Italian Gabbiano class. Corvette with torpedo tubes.

 

Years ago was really awsome game for me it was Enigma Rising Tide in which was possible to play on various escort ships. Gameplay was so awsome that I must install this game again. Maybe someone else played with this also?

 

About Bismarck mounts. False close hit is nice way for another mechanic like movable funnel on Republique.

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1 hour ago, Marblehead_1 said:

Thanks for explanation! I'm sure that I have book about County class cruisers so I must to check this in home on my own. 

 

About models, yes, many models have errors but when I see model done by PRO I can think that author made more reaserch than normal scale modeller.

 

About Maya I found another info from combinedfleet.com which I think due to authors of site is good and viable source:

http://www.combinedfleet.com/maya_t.htm

 

21 December 1943:
Drydocked. Undergoes repairs and modification to an AA cruiser. Her No. 3 200-mm (8-inch) turret is removed as are her twin-mount 25-mm AA guns, 120-mm (4.7-inch) HA guns, twin torpedo tube mounts and the floatplane hangar. Thirteen Type 96 triple-mount 25-mm AA guns and six twin 127-mm HA guns are installed as are nine Type 96 single-mount 25-mm AA guns and 36 Type 93 13-mm MGs. Four Type 92 quadruple torpedo mounts, loaded with 16 Type 93 "Long Lance" torpedoes, are also fitted as is a Type 22 surface-search radar. A centerline depth charge rail is installed aft.

 

 

But Flowers is so awsome Milk cow scheme for WG although it could be good for some scenario mode. So many countries and even a DKM warship... WG pls. Interesting could be also Italian Gabbiano class. Corvette with torpedo tubes.

 

Years ago was really awsome game for me it was Enigma Rising Tide in which was possible to play on various escort ships. Gameplay was so awsome that I must install this game again. Maybe someone else played with this also?

 

About Bismarck mounts. False close hit is nice way for another mechanic like movable funnel on Republique.

 

No worries mate.

 

And yeah the Maya did have them fitted later but it's the same class as the atago.  They are the same class of ship. So premium tier 8 Atago lovers will be fine.lol

 

I have a RC flower class corvett purpose built, I will post a pic when back from holiday. Took me 3 years to complete a while ago and still needs the life rafts completing. It was the biggest ship I built 1/48 scale!

 

However the flower would be soooo out classes by almost any DD. It had one 4 inch gun and no torps. AA goes from pathitic to average depending on which ship it was (most were spec depending where they served, Atlantic ones had little, med ones had a lot for such a small ship).

 

As soon as you kill the enemy sub, the ship would become useless.lol. unless you equipped ramming flags!!! 

 

In fact it might struggle to even do that as it's top speed was barely 30km if I remember. 

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2 hours ago, Redcap375 said:

And how is that any different to having a single DD alive? Or a light cruiser alive? 

 

As a BB you are blind and can be outrun by those ships anyway. In fact you can prob out run a bloody Sub with only 1 to 4 tops in the water..not like 15 or 20 you would from a mino or Blenheim ect...wow

 

Subs cant cap quick and are slower then even your BB. What is will help with is those that sit at the back and snipe BBs. So I welcome that.

We do not now the speed of the subs yet. 

 

That is your view, I would much rather have a dds vs me than a sub like in halloween event. That is gonna be serious hard to deal with.

The point is that if you can hit the sub besides him being stupid and going into surface mode close to you, it will never be seen.

Stupid dds and CL players can be beaten. Often it is not rocket science to know where they are.

But just give my CV some Anti sub bombs...that would also be more realistic than any stupid BBS with depth charges plan.

 

If that event is anything like they want it to be then it is very fast reload of torps. If that freeze crap comes into play in some form, it gets even worse.

 

Do you know the cap speed of subs? What if they travel 35 knts submerged? They will not be slow...that is pretty certain, who would play a 10-15 knts sub...more likely speed like ships.

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22 minutes ago, gizaman said:

We do not now the speed of the subs yet. 

 

That is your view, I would much rather have a dds vs me than a sub like in halloween event. That is gonna be serious hard to deal with.

The point is that if you can hit the sub besides him being stupid and going into surface mode close to you, it will never be seen.

Stupid dds and CL players can be beaten. Often it is not rocket science to know where they are.

But just give my CV some Anti sub bombs...that would also be more realistic than any stupid BBS with depth charges plan.

 

If that event is anything like they want it to be then it is very fast reload of torps. If that freeze crap comes into play in some form, it gets even worse.

 

Do you know the cap speed of subs? What if they travel 35 knts submerged? They will not be slow...that is pretty certain, who would play a 10-15 knts sub...more likely speed like ships.

speed is the bigest problem....unless you have SSN from T5 up you can pretty much goes the speed. 14-mid 25 over water and 3-7 kn under water for most tirs and even at their best time diesel electrics went around mid 25 underwater in cold war. The Haloween event was fun because it had totally unrealic speeds wich cant be translated into the real game, Workaround would be spaws much closer to chokepoints bot if teh enemy dont goes for that they worse than tring to find a raming target with a Langley or Kotori on a large map.....plus its nonfeasebly to push the ASW role to CVs and DDs only. WoWS concept is that ANY ship can deal damage to any other ( even when recent RU BB armor scemes call that somewhat into question once their superstructure is saturated)

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@Redcap375 Admittedly my source is the Powell and Pressburger film The Battle of the River Plate, but Captain Bell who commanded HMS Exeter during that action was one of their two consultants and there is a line where permission is asked to jettison the depth charges as a hit on them would blow their stern off.

(Which is something to consider, when the depth charges become more than decorative will they explode when hit... probably not, though jettisoning them or risking the fate of IJN Kisaragi would be an interesting choice.)

 

And if you look at the stern of the model of HMS Exeter in game you can see that there is the single rack of depth charges there, in the same place as on the Emerald and the Leander.

 

shot-19_08.20_21_37.47-0029.thumb.jpg.abd388613b9a736159c942a3a00a49d7.jpg

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Very interesting and here's what subs will be really like, based on past design decisions by WG:

 

- They will have comparable speed to DDs (surfaced and submerged).

- Their spotting range will be similar to all other ships even though this can (and should) be adjusted.

- They will be able to dive whenever they want and stay submerged for as long as they wish.

 

As a result there will be no counterplay, which is ok because players who just got countered are less likely to spend more money on additional premium submarines. Then WG will 'balance' them around their average damage and spreadsheets will confirm they are 'fine'.

 

On 8/19/2019 at 6:15 PM, Gvozdika said:

Historically, very few submarines ever successfully tackled other submarines - this ability wouldn't come along until the cold-war and better weaponry - out of WOWS timeframe.

Challenge accepted. :Smile_trollface:

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1 hour ago, gizaman said:

We do not now the speed of the subs yet. 

They will be slower than the slowest DD. Even if you go off that, that's good news for surface players.

 

Quote

That is your view, I would much rather have a dds vs me than a sub like in halloween event. That is gonna be serious hard to deal with.

The point is that if you can hit the sub besides him being stupid and going into surface mode close to you, it will never be seen.

Stupid dds and CL players can be beaten. Often it is not rocket science to know where they are.

 

Stupid BB players can be hit, stupid any player can be found and hit. Stupid sub players will still be hit when they run out of oxygen trying to hit a BB that is prob the same speed as it.

 

A DD player can never be seen in a BB. To me, its no difference.

 

If your the only BB player left and I'm the only DD player left, i guarantee you won't see me for the rest of the game.

 

Quote

But just give my CV some Anti sub bombs...that would also be more realistic than any stupid BBS with depth charges plan.

 

That I agree. Planes were equip with anti sub weapons during WW2 and I can see WG having them on Cvs.

 

Quote

 

If that event is anything like they want it to be then it is very fast reload of torps. If that freeze crap comes into play in some form, it gets even worse.

 

Freeze won't come into play in randoms IHMO. Won't fit in with random.

 

Quote

Do you know the cap speed of subs? What if they travel 35 knts submerged? They will not be slow...that is pretty certain, who would play a 10-15 knts sub...more likely speed like ships.

 They won't. They simply wont.

 

24km was the fastest submerged sub during WW2 I believe (IJN). Even if they make it 30km to be arcade they still won't be trouble for Higher tier BBs. 

 

If they make it 35km submerged  then it would be something like 50km on the surface.lol

 

 

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Preliminary sub mechanics:

Quote

- You can only fire guided torpedo in periscope mode

- Once you fire, you need to manually ping the target for the torpedo to lock on. For this you can either select the bow or stern of the target

- After the torpedo is locked on it will travel to target on its own

- You can optionally ping the target additionally after torpedo is locked on. In this case the torpedo will dive deeper causing much more damage.

- Your ping gives away your last position to enemy

- If a DD closes enough to last known position of enemy SS, the AI will automaticall throw depth charges. 1-3 depth charges are sufficient to kill SS

- Full det range on surface. 50% on perisocpe, proxy spotting on dive mode

- SS can only spot each other within proxt spotting range

- Maneuverability is worse than the event mode SS

- Oxygen tank is larger than event but it takes much more time to refill

- If you don't have oxygen, you can only sail in surface mode. Not even periscope

 

Submerged speed of the played sub was 8kn compared to a surface speed of 25kn.

 

Source:

https://www.reddit.com/r/WorldOfWarships/comments/ct5mvw/manual_for_the_new_uboats_in_wows/exiys1o/

https://www.reddit.com/r/WorldOfWarships/comments/ct5mvw/manual_for_the_new_uboats_in_wows/

https://imgur.com/a/uRhdSNs

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Automatically deployed depth charges sure sound like interesting counterplay. /s

 

Do they get the irony of making subs similar to CVs at least? I don't think so.

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Can't see how any of this can possibly work, CV re-work was a car crash, now WG seem to have got the car back, fueled the car up with Nitromethane and themselves with a mix of vodka and crystal meth and are promising us a high speed tour around the Nurburgring that can only end in explosions and fire.

 

CV have always (subject to discussion) been unbalancable in this game, now WG seems to want to add a second unbalancable class, I can't undestand why.

 

What was wrong with the game we used to have?

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10 hours ago, Redcap375 said:

Oh and no BBs ever had real depth charges as far as I can see. Only ones that imitated enemy shells falling short to put the enemy gunners off.

 

So good luck BBs.lol You are royally buggered.

 

Can't see many subs coming to the surface 3k away to eat a 14inch HE shell in the face.

 

Guess this is the First Time in History of World of Warships that German Battleships will actually be Good for something other than being Exp Pinatas for the Enemy Team.

 

Unlike what many People think.

Submarines were not immune to Gunfire.

They had little to no Armor. So HE Shells Exploding in the Water near them. As well as AP Shells fired at them below the Waterline were Extremely Dangerous when they were at Periscope Depth.

 

So a German Heavy Cruiser or BB which can Spot a Submarine 5-6km away despite it being at Periscope Depth to Launch Torpedoes.

Will be Royally Buggered as the German Ship can then Shoot it with its Main Guns *gg*

 

 

Then Again.

There is no Way WG will Allow that.

Prepare for German  Hydro to be Nerfed with some Extra Condition like "Sub Detection 3km" or something like that....

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39 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

Can't see how any of this can possibly work, CV re-work was a car crash, now WG seem to have got the car back, fueled the car up with Nitromethane and themselves with a mix of vodka and crystal meth and are promising us a high speed tour around the Nurburgring that can only end in explosions and fire.

 

CV have always (subject to discussion) been unbalancable in this game, now WG seems to want to add a second unbalancable class, I can't undestand why.

 

What was wrong with the game we used to have?

 

On that I disagree.

 

Submarines are extremely Easy to Balance to be Honest.

Because unlike CVs they are Extremely Close Ranged Ships and very Slow.

 

A CV is a Risk to every Enemy on the Battlefield. But the only one actually being Dangerous to it. Is the Enemy CV.

Everyone else is just a Target.

 

But for Submarines this is not the Case.

They have to get Close to Fight. They will Forcibly in Range of Enemy Weapons.

And they got Laughable HP and Armor. Most BBs can effectively Onehit a Submarine with an HE Salvo.

 

And as Submarines going into Deep Dive will likely Lose HP or have a Tight Limit or be Unable to use Torpedoes etc etc.

They cant actually Play for long while Staying Immune to Normal Gunfire.

 

Not even Talking about Depth Charges and other ASW Weapons. Which will be able to Reach them even if they Deep Dive.

 

So most of the Time the Submarine will be Vulnearble to Weapons which Every Single Ship has.

And with Radar and Hydro being so Commonplace. They will likely have a Pretty Hard time getting Close Enemy Ships in the First Place.

 

 

 

In Fact. I expect Submarines to Start out Extremely Underpowered.

Because at first they will Likely constantly be Spotted and Deleted before Reaching any Enemy Properly.

 

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15 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Submarines are extremely Easy to Balance to be Honest.

Because unlike CVs they are Extremely Close Ranged Ships and very Slow.

 

Nope, same basic problem as CV, they ignore most of the fundamental in-game balancing mechanics and introduce their own unique mechanics that will inevitably end up being balanced by RNG or something else that can only ruin the gameplay of other players without any real interaction with them,.

 

There's a reason why WG said subs would never come to the game from day one, now they're thinking about it, this will not end well.

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18 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

 

Nope, same basic problem as CV, they ignore most of the fundamental in-game balancing mechanics and introduce their own unique mechanics that will inevitably end up being balanced by RNG or something else that can only ruin the gameplay of other players without any real interaction with them,.

 

There's a reason why WG said subs would never come to the game from day one, now they're thinking about it, this will not end well.

 

Oh. And if I might Ask. Which Fundamental in-game balancing Mechanics are Subs Ignoring ?

 

Submarines Work by the same Spotting Mechanics as DDs.

And just like Smoke Reduces Visibility of DDs to something like 2km. Submarines can go to Periscope Depth to reduce their Visibility to about 2km.

 

Submarines can be Hit by Normal Guns just like DDs. But will be Small and Harder to Hit. And currently with the Announced HP. They will be even Easier to Kill on Range than DDs because they have very Low HP paired with being Pretty Slow and not very Maneuverable.

 

Just like DDs. The Submarines will be Extremely Vulnearble to Hydro Consumable and to being Spotted by Enemy DDs and Light Cruisers.

They will be able to Avoid Spotting by Aircraft to some Extend just like DDs.

 

Now for how to Deal with Aircraft Once Spotted there is a Small Difference.

DDs simply Limit the Time they can be Spotted by their AA. Which makes Especially DDs with Strong AA very hard to Spot for CVs due to Losses.

Subs will Dive and thus become Unspottable for a Limited Time instead. Similar to how DDs who Smoke.

They will basicly be a Mix between AA DDs and DDs with Fast Recharging but Short Duration Smoke.

 

 

 

Actually there is only 3 Actual Differences between DDs and Submarines Gameplaywise.

 

Submarines will be able to Avoid Radar. However this is Outbalanced by the Fact that unlike DDs they wont possess the Speed to Withdraw or Retreat when being Spotted.

Submarines will be able to use Smoke without others seeing it. Hence there wont be a Warning Cloud if a Submarine reduces its Detection Range. But again this is Outbalanced by the Submarine Massively being Reduced in its Speed if it Does that.

And Finally. Submarines will have an Option to Deep Dive to Avoid Gunfire for a Limited Period of Time. Which is Outbalanced by the Fact that Submarines have only Torpedoes and thus have far less Options to actually use their Concealment.

 

 

In Total.

Submarines are actually Working mostly within the Current Mechanics.

They are just DDs which are far Worse at Actual Combat but much better at Sneak Attacks.

 

 

 

This is Completely Different from CVs.

Which cannot be Countered except by an Automatic System you have little Influence over.

And which cannot be Attacked directly because their Attacks neither give away their Location nor do they need to be in Range of anyone to Launch Attacks.

 

CVs Biggest Problem is that they are Untouchable. They are Sitting behind the Lines but can Attack everyone.

Thats why the Normal Balancing is not Working with them.

 

They got a OneSided Balancing where they Basicly dont Fight other Players but an Automatic System Defending other Players.

And that Ruined them.

 

But Submarines Face other Players Directly. They got a Two Way Balancing like all other Ships with no Automatic Systems Involved.

 

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4 hours ago, Sunleader said:

But Submarines Face other Players Directly. They got a Two Way Balancing like all other Ships with no Automatic Systems Involved.

 

Depth charges are automated. Just saying. How dense the spread is going to be few know yet.

Also do they, really? After all to combat a submarine a DD has to move out of position directly over the sub to damage it or score a kill. The DD will likely be visible the entire time, drawing fire from everyone and their mother.

Question also remains whether a charging DD can be easily torpedoed via homing torps.

 

So while counterplay is technically possible, personally I don't see how it's going to be viable in normal combat scenarios.

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Very simple - they add :etc_swear: guided torps and it gets into the normal game modes - I for one am quitting

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Person who leaked the german submarine manual says that in todays Gamescon stream they will reveal submarine gameplay.

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5 hours ago, Sunleader said:

Oh. And if I might Ask. Which Fundamental in-game balancing Mechanics are Subs Ignoring ?

 

Buoyancy.

 

 

Or, being a little more serious, the game is still (somewhat) balanced around the 3 surface class interaction with CV as an unwelcome outsider, to add a 5th class when WG seemingly can't balance even 3 let alone 4 is not going to end well

 

The spotting mechanics are not the same as DD, smoke is a limited use consumable that provides concealment rather than cover (i.e. unlike submersion it doesn't stop gunfire) and cannot be turned on and off at will, you mention that subs are immune to radar, how they inteact with the cap circles is unclear, torpedoes unless the sub is surfaced again seem to be excluded from the equation.

 

There are no ASW mechanics in the game at the moment so to add any requires either a fundamental re-design or RNG depth charges similar to AA flak.

 

Subs AFAIK can have no effective gun armament so they're wholly reliant upon torpedoes, but the whole drift of the game for the last 2 or 3 years has been away from stealthy torpedo based play so are WG really going to be able to add a class that does nothing but spam torpedoes and how will they react when the BB players start whining about another round of torpedo soup.

 

None of which is to say that subs couldn't be intergrated into the game with sufficient work but to trust that WG are able to deliver such after the CV fiasco is optomistic to say the least.

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30 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

 

Buoyancy.

 

 

Or, being a little more serious, the game is still (somewhat) balanced around the 3 surface class interaction with CV as an unwelcome outsider, to add a 5th class when WG seemingly can't balance even 3 let alone 4 is not going to end well

 

The spotting mechanics are not the same as DD, smoke is a limited use consumable that provides concealment rather than cover (i.e. unlike submersion it doesn't stop gunfire) and cannot be turned on and off at will, you mention that subs are immune to radar, how they inteact with the cap circles is unclear, torpedoes unless the sub is surfaced again seem to be excluded from the equation.

 

There are no ASW mechanics in the game at the moment so to add any requires either a fundamental re-design or RNG depth charges similar to AA flak.

 

Subs AFAIK can have no effective gun armament so they're wholly reliant upon torpedoes, but the whole drift of the game for the last 2 or 3 years has been away from stealthy torpedo based play so are WG really going to be able to add a class that does nothing but spam torpedoes and how will they react when the BB players start whining about another round of torpedo soup.

 

None of which is to say that subs couldn't be intergrated into the game with sufficient work but to trust that WG are able to deliver such after the CV fiasco is optomistic to say the least.


Buoyancy, surfacing and submerging has so many factors that Wargaming probably won't bother for it to be ultra realistic.

For example a submerged WW2 Submarine to surface they have to use compressed air to gain Buoyancy, a good example is a Type VII class submarine that's pretty much been the workhouse for the German navy. They exhaust roughly half their compressed air reserve just to surface while being submerged even at periscope depth. Usually a Type VII can make only make two surfaces and two dives with it's maximum compressed air capacity before needing to recharge their compressed air reserve. To recharge their compressed air reserve this is usually done at the surface since doing it underwater is suicidal and the submarine quickly loses all oxygen, they activate a diesel compressor thats usually located at the stern on all subs. It is ill advised to use the compressor during combat since the noise it creates is very loud and makes the submarine easy to spot by just listening to a hydrophone. If WG thinks submarine just surfaces to regain their oxygen and dives again they are very wrong, it's a very loud and noticeable process that takes time and makes the submarine very vulnerable while the diesel compressor is working to compress the air reserve, if they don't refill their compressed air reserves before diving the submarine will become a coffin and loses it's ability to surface due lack of oxygen to gain buoyancy.

But yeah, oxygen that the crew uses to breath isn't related to compressed air, compressed air is mainly used to blow the tanks to get rid the water and make the submarine gain buoyancy. If you want to go in depth about the oxygen and ventilation system there is also potassium superoxide sheets that been used in submarines to get rid engine exhaust or CO2 to increase maximum submerge time but the supply for Kriegsmarine with these stuff usually were small and were reserved for submarines with good service record / reputation.

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Just one other thought, has anyone thought about subs relative strength at different phases in the game, are they going to be weak or dominant early, mid or late in the game.

 

What I hate most about CV is that they take close games where you as a DD/CA/BB can make a difference to the outcome and turn it into a constant nightmare of rockets, torpedoes and bombs, where you almost literally can't move.

 

Are subs going to do the same, or are they going to determine the outcome of the game in the first 3-5 minutes.

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12 hours ago, Redcap375 said:

 

No worries mate.

 

And yeah the Maya did have them fitted later but it's the same class as the atago.  They are the same class of ship. So premium tier 8 Atago lovers will be fine.lol

 

I have a RC flower class corvett purpose built, I will post a pic when back from holiday. Took me 3 years to complete a while ago and still needs the life rafts completing. It was the biggest ship I built 1/48 scale!

 

However the flower would be soooo out classes by almost any DD. It had one 4 inch gun and no torps. AA goes from pathitic to average depending on which ship it was (most were spec depending where they served, Atlantic ones had little, med ones had a lot for such a small ship).

 

As soon as you kill the enemy sub, the ship would become useless.lol. unless you equipped ramming flags!!! 

 

In fact it might struggle to even do that as it's top speed was barely 30km if I remember. 

Maya in this form will be for sure not TVIII but rather TVII due to weaker artillery, also she may be added as premium ship or as tech tree ship in second IJN cruiser line ( I call this proposed line as "strange cruisers" line ) with Isuzu 1944, Kitakami, Tone and other.

 

Flowers and other small ships could work only in scenario mode or convoy battle mode when one side defends convoy and next atacks ( no surface raiders only subs vs escorts plus maybe 1 CVE )

 

Flower 1/48 is scratchbuild? Right? I want too see this. It must be nice model ( got Revell 1/144 Flowers in stockpile )

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13 hours ago, Marblehead_1 said:

Thanks for explanation! I'm sure that I have book about County class cruisers so I must to check this in home on my own. 

 

About models, yes, many models have errors but when I see model done by PRO I can think that author made more reaserch than normal scale modeller.

 

About Maya I found another info from combinedfleet.com which I think due to authors of site is good and viable source:

http://www.combinedfleet.com/maya_t.htm

 

21 December 1943:
Drydocked. Undergoes repairs and modification to an AA cruiser. Her No. 3 200-mm (8-inch) turret is removed as are her twin-mount 25-mm AA guns, 120-mm (4.7-inch) HA guns, twin torpedo tube mounts and the floatplane hangar. Thirteen Type 96 triple-mount 25-mm AA guns and six twin 127-mm HA guns are installed as are nine Type 96 single-mount 25-mm AA guns and 36 Type 93 13-mm MGs. Four Type 92 quadruple torpedo mounts, loaded with 16 Type 93 "Long Lance" torpedoes, are also fitted as is a Type 22 surface-search radar. A centerline depth charge rail is installed aft.

 

 

But Flowers is so awsome Milk cow scheme for WG although it could be good for some scenario mode. So many countries and even a DKM warship... WG pls. Interesting could be also Italian Gabbiano class. Corvette with torpedo tubes.

 

Years ago was really awsome game for me it was Enigma Rising Tide in which was possible to play on various escort ships. Gameplay was so awsome that I must install this game again. Maybe someone else played with this also?

 

About Bismarck mounts. False close hit is nice way for another mechanic like movable funnel on Republique.

Never understood that, why changing 200 mm gun mounts just for a few more AA guns. Why not going for 100mm or 120mm guns and use them as hybrid?

Ah, they did that? Missunderstood it :D

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1 hour ago, Capra76 said:

Just one other thought, has anyone thought about subs relative strength at different phases in the game, are they going to be weak or dominant early, mid or late in the game.

 

What I hate most about CV is that they take close games where you as a DD/CA/BB can make a difference to the outcome and turn it into a constant nightmare of rockets, torpedoes and bombs, where you almost literally can't move.

 

Are subs going to do the same, or are they going to determine the outcome of the game in the first 3-5 minutes.

Given that a DD that survives to the later stages of a game is pretty influential - I think subs will be similarly strong as the game goes on longer. As DDs get killed off - they will be able to have a free hand. If anything they'll be even harder to counter as the game goes on thanks to less teammates to spot/hunt/chase them down. 

 

Seeing that sub leak (pun intended) convinces me WG have totally lost the plot. I hope its wrong.

 

- Guided torps. Just what brand of antifreeze are they drinking these days in St Petersburg? Do players now need auto aim on their guns too? I assume you have no way of escaping these homing torpedoes other than hoping the sub has fired at max range? 

 

- Auto-Generated underwater flak puffs / 'depth charges' - another clueless fudge that entrusts player vs player interaction to an RNG minigame. Like that REALLY worked well with the rework... oh wait it didn't!

 

The only positive is that the underwater speeds aren't unrealistically quick - so the sub driver has to trade speed for stealth. 

 

Oh well - at least I've got KSP 2 to look forward to if WG do decide to go all out on their self-destruct MO. With any luck they'll get enough feedback ringing in their ears to dissuade them from some of the finer points of crass stupidity linked above. 

 

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